The defensive stat shards that you can choose feel worthless

Regality·Jan 5, 2019·58 votes·16,209 views

In comparison to their offensive couterparts. 10 Adaptive vs 5 Armour/6 AP is a joke.

Old runes gave more defense stats than offense stats. This is important because armour/mr/health do not scale as well as AD or AP. It absolutely makes sense that damage outscales tankiness, but at this point damage is already better than defenses in the early game. It doesn't help that tank items suck in terms of gold efficiency either, but I digress.

I know that base armour and mr got adjusted with the new system, but it simply doesn't feel like enough, especially when many runes give flat offensive stats such as Conqueror, Absolute focus, Gathering storm, Legend: Alacrity, Eyeball Collection, Coup De Grace's AD on kill, or defensive stats that scale with offense such as Legend: Bloodline, Taste of Blood, Ravenous hunter, etc. Moreover, the adaptive shard actually gives more AD than old runes used to. I also think that the prevalence of lethality ( ) compared to arpen back in the day (post black cleaver stacking) makes defensive options less attractive to squishier champions against AD assassins, so at this point you'd rather spec into offence and try to one shot the first (and probably unsuccesfully) if you're a mage, or roll over and die if you're an ADC and got caught.

In addition, old masteries made you choose between offence/utility, defense/utility or offence/defence, instead of current runes which offer NINE different versions of offence/offence tree combinations. I even felt that old runes were good in that to gain the most efficiency out of their stats, you had to spec into both defence and offence.

There are way too many strong offensive options already in the game compared to defensive/utility, and they crowd out all the other options

Now I do feel Riot has taken a good step towards balance with the stat choices - you have to spec into some sort of defence. However, these defensive bonuses feel incredibly weak. 10-90 HP especially does fuck all for you - early game that 10 adaptive already nullifies it with with 1 auto or 1 spell, and late game like I said damage scales much better so that extra 90 hp isn't doing shit for you.

I think the defensive "stat shard" choices need a buff, especially the awful health shard. Thoughts?

91 Comments

iiGazeiiJan 5, 201957 votes

10 AP is worth 217.5 gold

5 armor is worth 100 gold.

By picking the offensive option in the same tier, you are more than doubling the effective value of the stats you're getting compared to the defensive options.

The defensive shards absolutely need to be buffed.

Tahminatrix Jan 5, 201912 votes

You can get 20 ap from the scaling cdr rune via transcendence conversion lol.

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20195 votes

That's essentially just taking a scaling AP option, like with the old rune system. You're sacrificing a lot of early game power (first few levels it's useless) for a bit more late game power. It would be nice if there were just scaling options for each of the stats, I'd prefer scaling MR to flat MR.

Kai GuyJan 5, 20194 votes

We do need to keep in mind functionality in addition to efficiency.

item 3004 was Gold efficient. Hella gold efficient. For years. It did not upgrade. It was a bad item on most the rooster. If you put them on the same efficiency regardless of functionality we will have a problem.

Defensive stats are good 100% of the time. Armor will always reduce autos. MR is more selective but you know in lobby for draft if you need it or not.

That said. At the very least id like riot to add some Options for scaling Armor or MR.

Like, if its just gonna be static then 7 would be a solid number imo. get an extra 4 stats if you invest twice in it.

JeaneGreeneJan 5, 20195 votes

Death is the best CC

Kai GuyJan 5, 20193 votes

^ so true. except for Karthus

then displacements pretty fucking solid.

LordGeovanniJan 5, 20192 votes

displacements are uselless after death. dead karthus is still better than a live one.

Kai GuyJan 5, 20194 votes

Some occasions your going to want karthus to not die because of his passive. So on occasion knocking him out of position might be the better play over bursting him.

Sorry, I worded that first response exceptionally poorly. Death is the best CC but situationally you might not want to kill a target.

But yes Grey screens they best CC. Nothing else comes close to its duration and very few champions have much if any interaction to it.

The Bad TouchJan 5, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-05T08:09:22.202+0000)

We do need to keep in mind functionality in addition to efficiency.

was Gold efficient. Hella gold efficient. For years. It did not upgrade. It was a bad item on most the rooster. If you put them on the same efficiency regardless of functionality we will have a problem.

Defensive stats are good 100% of the time. Armor will always reduce autos. MR is more selective but you know in lobby for draft if you need it or not.

That said. At the very least id like riot to add some Options for scaling Armor or MR.

Like, if its just gonna be static then 7 would be a solid number imo. get an extra 4 stats if you invest twice in it.

Armor will always reduce auto damage. 5 Armor will "almost" never make it take one more auto to kill you. Between Ignite/IE/Conq/LW items/BC/Red Smite/Yas ulti ect... the odds of living due to 5 armor even once in a game is a very very rare thing.

10 extra CDR or 10 extra adaptive WILL result in more CS, more gold, faster clears, better wave clear, better objective taking, faster tower kills, ect ect every single game though.

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20193 votes

5 Armor does make a big difference in the JG, where you get hit by a lot of monsters and will be healing back a bunch of health, making your health last much longer. In general it's much better on champions with large health pools or self heals.

The Bad TouchJan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2019-01-05T21:11:19.479+0000)

5 Armor does make a big difference in the JG, where you get hit by a lot of monsters and will be healing back a bunch of health, making your health last much longer. In general it's much better on champions with large health pools or self heals.

Your logic is flawed though. Killing jungle camps faster actually means you take less damage because the neutrals have less time to hit you. Also you have to factor in the extra life steal you are getting with a machete start. Faster clears also mean faster ganks. Being there first for the skuttle. Faster backs. Stronger ganks. Ect. Also offensive stats are stronger in a 1v1 when comparing the numbers. Take two identical AD jungles played by equally skilled players. The guy with more AD is statistically stronger than the guy with 5 extra armor. The AD increase is a higher percentile damage increase that the 5 armor is a percentile defensive increase. Also the armor does little to help ganking a magic damage heavy lane, where as AD is still useful.

Rathar DashingJan 6, 20193 votes

How is my logic flawed? Where did I say 5 armor was better than 6 AD?

The Bad TouchJan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T13:34:44.095+0000)

How is my logic flawed? Where did I say 5 armor was better than 6 AD?

When you said "5 Armor does make a big difference in the JG" ???

5 armor as opposed to what... not taking anything? The entire discussion is about the defensive shards being too weak compared to the offensive options. From the OP post "In comparison to their offensive couterparts. 10 Adaptive vs 5 Armour/6 AP is a joke." (Assuming he men't MR here.)

Only the second row lets you chose between offense or defense thus the options are 6 AD/10AP, 5 armor or 6 mr. I'm not entirely sure why a jungle would take 6MR so we are really just talking about 6ad vs 5 armor here.

Seeing as there really isn't another option... I don't see the logic of "5 Armor does make a big difference in the JG" when the only other option is 6ad... and for basically every meta jungle 6 AD is stronger.

Rathar DashingJan 6, 20191 votes

Umm... yes? As opposed to nothing? That's exactly what I meant. The logic of "5 armor makes a big difference in the JG" is that 5 armor makes a big difference in the JG, as explained by the rest of the sentence. You're reading wayyyyy too much into my comment, buddy.

The Bad TouchJan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=00000001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T14:30:26.276+0000)

Umm... yes? As opposed to nothing? That's exactly what I meant. The logic of "5 armor makes a big difference in the JG" is that 5 armor makes a big difference in the JG, as explained by the rest of the sentence. You're reading wayyyyy too much into my comment, buddy.

Please name a situation where you would select nothing.

Tahminatrix Jan 6, 20192 votes

You do realize there is also mr shards which don't help against jungle monsters. Its easy to name a situation where you need mr shards....

And not every jungler has an easy clear, some junglers have very tough clears that can get them dangerously low, some junglers can barely even use that extra ap or ad and prefer to dot monsters down with item 1039

Fízz v2Jan 5, 20192 votes

Gold efficiency isnt the only thing to look at tho, sometimes having a Hexdrinker wouldve been a lot better than having a Statikk shiv if you catch my drift

GigglesOJan 6, 20192 votes

Slot efficiency tends to be higher for damage items too.

Bronze GOATJan 5, 201917 votes

I don't get why they aren't all 10... Especially, since the only harm is that damage will be a bit lower. Which is something everyone complains about, at least on these boards ig.

DUDE BROJan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bronze GOAT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-05T06:28:46.485+0000)

I don't get why they aren't all 10... Especially, since the only harm is that damage will be a bit lower. Which is something everyone complains about, at least on these boards ig.

Could be because everything does phys early (jungle, minions, mage basic attacks), so flat armor is deceivingly powerful early game.

Warlord RhinarkJan 5, 201917 votes

Buff the Armor rune to 10 and buff the scaling Health rune to 50 - ~~300~~ 250.

EDIT: Lowered it from 50 - 300 to 50 - 250.

Captain MayoraJan 5, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-05T07:29:55.668+0000)

Buff the Armor rune to 10 and buff the scaling Health rune to 50 - 300.

Thing is, squishies benefit more from this change than tanks. I'm all for better defensive options, but they should be put in direct competition with offensive options. IMO the defensive stat tier should offer more specialized defense options than HP, and the flex stat tier should offer more generic bonus (adaptive force, flat + %max health HP, movement speed maybe?)

Nea104Jan 5, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Mayora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-05T10:21:23.097+0000)

Thing is, squishies benefit more from this change than tanks.

Exactly. Another thing "Made in Rito" :P %HP would be far better, to actually help tanks (but they don't want that, it's evident).

My Waifu VanillaJan 6, 20192 votes

That is called "made in math" and not "made in rito". 100 extra health on caitlyn with 1000 health is a straight up 10% durabity change. Meanwhile 100 health on Sion with 2000 after 1 item or whatever only gets 5% bonus from it.

Nea104Jan 6, 20193 votes

This is exactly what I meant, wasn't it clear enough? I even quoted the exact sentence saying that :D

"Made in Rito" because of course this makes no sense, since it (as me and the message I quoted, and I agreed with) rewards more squishies than tanks. When it's supposed to be a "tankish" rune.

DracocrashJan 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-05T07:29:55.668+0000)

Buff the Armor rune to 10 and buff the scaling Health rune to 50 - 300.

50-150.... 300 is too much!

Warlord RhinarkJan 5, 20195 votes

{quoted}

50-150.... 300 is too much!

270 is what you previously got for running Resolve + Inspiration.

But you're right, 300 is a bit much.

I'll cut it down to 250.

TerchioJan 6, 20191 votes

You also got around 20 adaptive damage, which requires 2 stat sticks to attain now (though at least possible). Last thing I need is someone getting the Dom/Sorc/Ins off of 2 stat sticks, and then getting the Res/Ins on the third.

Warlord RhinarkJan 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You also got around 20 adaptive damage, which requires 2 stat sticks to attain now (though at least possible). Last thing I need is someone getting the Dom/Sorc/Ins off of 2 stat sticks, and then getting the Res/Ins on the third.

It doesn't really matter in the long run when everyone else can just do the same thing.

Critmaster GarenJan 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

50-150.... 300 is too much!

there should be two stat shards for 15 - 150 health.

one health rune should be in the first row. or they should remove adaptive force from the first row, replace it with 3% movement speed and put 15 - 150 health into the second and third rows, so we can pick 30 to 300 health like the resolve + inspiration rune path used to give us.

Fízz v2Jan 5, 20191 votes

theres no way being able to start with 20 armor + item 1029 vs AD champs is balanced tho

Gramps69Jan 5, 20194 votes

Why not? Old runes I would run armor seals, quints, and marks and start cloth+5 against a pantheon

My Waifu VanillaJan 6, 20191 votes

And then they lane swap against you and you cry when you have to lane against Ahri top or whatever instead and you have 21 MR and zero health increases.

Tahminatrix Jan 6, 20192 votes

So you are agreeing with him and showing everyone that its balanced and there is HARD counterplay to that, by switching lanes.

The thigh guyJan 5, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mvEIXEF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-05T07:29:55.668+0000)

Buff the Armor rune to 10 and buff the scaling Health rune to 50 - ~~300~~ 250.

EDIT: Lowered it from 50 - 300 to 50 - 250.

Problem is buffing the numbers won’t do much. Resistance stats get shredded into nothing and ignored by just about every champion now because of the insane amount of pen and true damage.

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20191 votes

What about MR? Up that to 10 as well?

GigglesOJan 5, 20192 votes

12, It takes 12 to negate 10 ap .

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20191 votes

I don't know, the gold values might match up but being able to take 24 magic resist into lane kind of destroys any AP user who relies on burst. It's bad enough they have nullifying orb to deal with.

GigglesOJan 6, 20193 votes

That is kind of the goal. Because you are sacrificing your whole lane phase kill potential by taking defense just so you can farm.

Does it potentially make a boring game? Maybe.

Is it boring not being able to farm or do anything because the enemy bursts your ass? Yes. Yes it is.

Tank items aren't as gold or slot efficient making it so that offence always out scales defense. The idea was that defense should stronger early-mid game. Right now it just isnt.

Also, 26 MR doesn't fuck ap users. Otherwise everyone would start item 1033 whenever against one.

Rathar DashingJan 6, 20192 votes

Have you ever taken an early item 1033 into an AP user? That pretty much ruins them. They can't pressure you with kill potential because you can almost always survive with 100 health and back to safety, or pot and keep going. Especially true if you upgrade it to item 1057 or item 3155 . Being able to build full damage items while still being able to survive a mage's burst would be pretty overpowered.

I agree that defenses should be stronger, but upping it to 12 is just too much. At the very most a scaling value of 6-12 would be okay.

GigglesOJan 6, 20192 votes

I've been doing it alot on morde. It still feels like ass. One jungle gank and lane phase is over because you didn't have health or mixed resistances.

Again, the idea of defense is that you should be able to survive because you also lose your kill potential on the enemy laner.

What is the point of defense if I can't survive anyways ?

My Waifu VanillaJan 6, 20193 votes

Acting like you wouldn't be screwed over by that gank if you took AP or Armor instead. The thing is at least it FORCES the jungler to show up which Morde technically already does.

GigglesOJan 6, 20192 votes

With ap you might be able to get a kill though.

With defense you lose that kill potential, and you still aren't allowed to walk away.

Tahminatrix Jan 6, 20192 votes

the 26 mr is mostly to counter ap users that rely on flat magic pen, like Leblanc

Z3SleeperJan 5, 20199 votes

Nah fam squishy champs don't build defense whatsoever, they build "defense".

item 3026 item 3157 the only "defensive" items they touch. No point in building damage reduction, they just build death negation since reducing damage does jack shit rn.

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20194 votes

What about item 3040 item 3812 item 3111 item 3046 ? All of those are bought by squishy champions, some more than others, and they all provide different forms of defense.

GigglesOJan 5, 20192 votes

"defense"

The portion of the boards complaining likely wants armor and magic resistance back.

Rathar DashingJan 5, 20191 votes

I mean, I do too, but you can't discount the value of a well-timed shield, damage reduction+kiting, tenacity (and MR too), and a burst mitigation+huge healing.

GigglesOJan 6, 20193 votes

You forgot the biggest damage reducer of them all. Nuke the enemy from full hp.

They can't damage you if you are dead.

MoonscourgeJan 5, 20198 votes

The resist shards aren't as effective because they buffed base stats when they introduced the new runes. They are as strong as runes before, just that everybody has part of them already baked into their kit. The offensive options are laughable compared to before, where you would have up to 30 AP PLUS other masteries. Now you have to choose to start with 20 or 10.