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R Change for Kha'zix: Ammo System

Igotlazy··82 votes·5,927 views

People who want a backstory start here: I think we can agree that everyone's favorite bug isn't doing too hot right now. The Tank Meta isn't doing him any favors and while the recent healing Buff to his W made surviving the Jungle a bit better, he's still a bit on the weak side. That being said, I feel like Kha'zix's current play style is actually quite good. He is rewarded for striking at the right time and punished if he gets impatient. There is one part of his Kit however that I feel is just... there. His Ultimate is a bit underwhelming to say the least. Now don't get me wrong, it's useful. It gives Kha'zix the utility he needs to stick to his enemies and/or pull off some fancy jukes if need be. The issue is that the 15 second time limit feels constraining, especially when you evolve it and the periods of stealth+delay start to build up.

Lazy Schmucks start here: What I suggest is that instead of having a normal Ult cooldown, Void Assault should be given an Ammo System like Akali's Shadow Dance (minus the reset on kill). Each stack takes ~25 seconds to charge and he can naturally store 3 charges. When you evolve it he can instead store 4. The idea is that now he doesn't need to worry about the 15 second limit and can use his Ults more freely. If he blows all 3 really quick in a fight he pays for it by having to wait a full 25 seconds just to use ONE cast. This change will hopefully allow Kha'zix players to find new and inventive ways to use that 1(2) seconds of invisibility.

What do you guys think?

Edit: 4 charges on the evolution seems a bit too much now that I think about it.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V7zXKnqZjaU/hqdefault.jpg

Khazix Bug Master Race Khazix
Cats r dum Rengar

55 Comments

Zair Umbras15 votes

Honestly, I'd be fine if they'd just remove the 2s CD in between charges. It was put in because his R had a damage reduc and it was too easy to abuse it with a 1s timer. No more damage reduc, so there's no reason it needs to be 2s.

masterdragon4815 votes

This is the first thing that comes to mind, and it angers me greatly that this nerf wasn't reverted when the damage reduction was removed. I seems to me that it was just a huge oversight in the efforts to reduce his power level quickly (he was completely dominating professional play at the time).

Personally, I would be more in favor of keeping the 2 second delay and giving his evolution for the ability an upgrade. I would like to see a super stealth where he becomes invisible to everything including true sight. Thematically, this makes sense; he adapted over the course of the game to beat the things that were detecting him. Because he would still be vulnerable to AOE abilities (and the stealths only last for a second anyway) he can still be beaten with this ability.

More on topic, however, I think that an ammo system would give Kha too much mobility. He already has a jump reset on kill or assist (lets be honest, NO ONE skips that evolution) so I think not limiting his windows to cause chaos and chase down opponents would make him too strong.

I also think that every large monster in the jungle should be treated as isolated so the poor squishy bug can actually clear the jungle in even a remotely healthy and efficient way; but again I'm off topic.

Aych Pii9 votes

I was with you until "Cats r dum". Rengar Khazix Peace and Harmony Khazix Rengar

Remlap12233 votes

Yeah come on man, if you're looking for blind and irrational hatred towards a feline champion inleague that will get you tons of upvotes, just use Nidalee

SwiftKitten882 votes

... i supposrt his change myself.. but thier called CHARGES.. not ammo.

i really just game to look at wtf you meant buy giving a monstrous creature with claws "ammo"

your idea is good. so +1 for that. but its they are called charges... not ammo

The Ecdysiast9 votes

If you have Mecha Kha, he has ammo.

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

Store up to 4 charges? .____.

Imagine a chase team fight where Kha goes invisible 4 times. R in kill the adc, R again to make enemy team lose focus, appear and kill the APC, R to escape. R again as needed. Wait in a nearby bush somewhere in between these steps if needed until the enemy is low. Also hop if needed.

He'd be worse than Zed.

No give him 2 charges. Evolved R can do something else.

J Epstein2 votes

people claiming an ammo system would be op clearly forgot about Akali . inb4 "but akali doesn't have X,Y, or Z!".

U Just Got Slain2 votes

I feel like Kha is in a decent place at the moment. He isn't the ONLY one struggling in the tank meta. In fact, a lot of previous picks have been. I don't think he should be buffed anymore because having played vs a couple of good Kha'Zixs lately allowed me to see the health of the champion. Bear in mind, these guys were higher rank but they mained jungle, not kha'zix. Kha's reward system with his jump is very nice, along with his great burst at early/mid game. If he can get ahead, being that he's an assassin, he can chunk a lot of people. I think he's in a good state right now, even better for jungle with his heal buff.

TeemoLikeCookies1 votes

I feel like his e is in a very good place right now, really defines the assassin risk/reward element that should be incorporated into other assassins.

Auryiel2 votes

Honestly, I think that would be overpowered. It's good that Kha'Zix has larger windows of weaknesses. Akali is a very unhealthy design and you shouldn't take anything from her XD

Start by reducing the cooldown between R uses back to 1 second. He'd probably need a few more tweaks but that would be a nice start.

Maple Crusader1 votes

I support this change. A big thing I don't like about Kha'Zix is that his ult is really all-in. Either I spam the invisibility charges or I end up wasting the ult entirely when I only use it once.

WhiteFireOCN6 votes

But it's that "all-in" factor that keeps assassins like Kha in check.

If his ulti didn't require the dedication, people would whine about him like they whine about Zed

Igotlazy7 votes

{quoted}

But it's that "all-in" factor that keeps assassins like Kha in check.

If his ulti didn't require the dedication, people would whine about him like they whine about Zed

His All-In is he E. In comparison the ult isn't used as an engage tool as much. It's almost unanimously used to escape or catch-up.

MeesterMoo4 votes

What?!?!? Rarely used as an ENGAGE tool? Sir please...

Igotlazy3 votes

{quoted}

What?!?!? Rarely used as an ENGAGE tool? Sir please...

Relative to the E atleast. You flank with it. You don't start with it unless you come from out of a bush.

ToxycBanana3 votes

The thing is, Kha'Zix, unlike many other AD assassins (The primary likeness to his kit is Talon) uses mana. That means if the cost of the ult remained the same, he could possibly be more balanced than energy focused assassins like zed or akali because he would have to keep track of how many charges he could use in a particular instance. The reason people whine about Zed is because he can get the energy for his shadow back relatively quickly, and when compared to this change Kha'Zix seems to be in a relatively healthy state. TL;DR: Because Kha'Zix uses mana, his ult should be relatively safe and non-dedicative to use compared to energy-based assassins

Aelvr1 votes

That meme I want

MeesterMoo1 votes

U got

Aelvr1 votes

:D

Jasiwel1 votes

It's infinitely better than what we have now, so I'm all for it.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

45 People support it. 6 don't. So why are there only 17 upvotes? Because reasons. BUT. I think it should reset on kill. Of course, leave it at 2 and 3 instead of 3 and 4 if it does.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I think this is a good change, if we're keeping him geared as an assassin. But, I don't like how, for an adapting champion, his build always seems to lead him to assassin gameplay. Ive always wanted his evolved ult to give him tank stats instead of invisibility. Hypothetically, his Q could be his assassin evolution: his ult wouldnt come with stealth, but upgrading his Q would imbue it and give him bonus isolation damage. Upgrading his ult could bring up his defensive stats, or increase his health/size, or something neat.

Dokusei1 votes

+1 good sir

MasochisticMeese1 votes

I'm not going to say that I support nor condemn this change.

It is very interesting and I would like to see it used before I put my support to it

Nasus >Rengar >Khazix Doge is best

AFK Push1 votes

Renekton > all. Godzilla vs the world.

MasochisticMeese1 votes

BattleCast Chogath =MechaGodzilla

AFK Push1 votes

more like mecha zerg

DeathToHeretics1 votes

This is a good change. Are there other ways to improve Kha?

MrBuffington1 votes

I think it's currently fine, the way it is now forces Kha players to use the charges to make cool plays while they have their ult up, kind of like Ahri. If there were charges, Kha would always just hang onto one to use as an escape at any time, and he already has a jump, so I think it'd make him too slippery without any real cost.

I feel like it's better to wait and see how tuning down Cinderhulk affects the game before making drastic changes to Kha, I feel like he doesn't need much more than number buffs, given how snowbally he is

Aazzlano1 votes

Lol? No.

First of all, that is an incredible buff to the CD of his ult. 25 seconds between recharges? "Each stack takes ~25 seconds to charge and he can naturally store 3 charges." " If he blows all 3 really quick in a fight he pays for it by having to wait a full 25 seconds just to use ONE cast. "

So instead of waiting 100/90/80 seconds for 2 casts in a 15 second window (50/45/40 seconds per cast or 33/30/27 when evolved), you would change that to be able to freely activate it whenever, having 3 charges with no window, at 25 seconds per cast? What? Then randomly give him a FOURTH charge when he evolves it? How is he PAYING for that? He is just getting massively buffed by over halving the CD and removing the time restriction.

Second, even if he did have this system, it would beyond break him. He could be taken to lane with 0 possibility of ever ganking him and trades with him would be impossible since he will have his passive up 100-200% of the time in trades (once from entering bush and again from his ult, which he could just trade with and not even hard engage with after) and just whittle you down until he can kill you. It would be as toxic as Zed is now with his shadows poking you until he ports in and kills you.

No way. He may need buffs in some aspects but this will make him way overwhelming.

Igotlazy2 votes

{quoted}

Lol? No.

First of all, that is an incredible buff to the CD of his ult. 25 seconds between recharges? "Each stack takes ~25 seconds to charge and he can naturally store 3 charges." " If he blows all 3 really quick in a fight he pays for it by having to wait a full 25 seconds just to use ONE cast. "

So instead of waiting 100/90/80 seconds for 2 casts in a 15 second window (50/45/40 seconds per cast or 33/30/27 when evolved), you would change that to be able to freely activate it whenever, having 3 charges with no window, at 25 seconds per cast? What? Then randomly give him a FOURTH charge when he evolves it? How is he PAYING for that? He is just getting massively buffed by over halving the CD and removing the time restriction.

Second, even if he did have this system, it would beyond break him. He could be taken to lane with 0 possibility of ever ganking him and trades with him would be impossible since he will have his passive up 100-200% of the time in trades (once from entering bush and again from his ult, which he could just trade with and not even hard engage with after) and just whittle you down until he can kill you. It would be as toxic as Zed is now with his shadows poking you until he ports in and kills you.

No way. He may need buffs in some aspects but this will make him way overwhelming.

I agree that a 4th charge seems a bit much now that I had a day to think it over. I'll change that in the main post. However I'm not sure if you understand what I mean by ammo system. The idea is that instead of him being forced to use the 3 charges efficiently within that 15 second window (which is actually quite difficult) he would be given an ammo system like Akali, where the only limit to the number of times he can cast Void Assault would be the cooldown of the individual charges. Overall, if he were to use all 3 charges in a fight he would have to wait a total of 75 seconds to do the same thing. Which is actually a nerf compared to what he is live. What I;m trying to do with this change is allow Kha'zix to be more open with his Ult. One cast here, 2 casts there. He uses it when he NEEDS it. Not being pressured into randomly casting it 3 times because of an annoying time constraint.

Aazzlano1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that a 4th charge seems a bit much now that I had a day to think it over. I'll change that in the main post. However I'm not sure if you understand what I mean by ammo system. The idea is that instead of him being forced to use the 3 charges efficiently within that 15 second window (which is actually quite difficult) he would be given an ammo system like Akali, where the only limit to the number of times he can cast Void Assault would be the cooldown of the individual charges. Overall, if he were to use all 3 charges in a fight he would have to wait a total of 75 seconds to do the same thing. Which is actually a nerf compared to what he is live. What I;m trying to do with this change is allow Kha'zix to be more open with his Ult. One cast here, 2 casts there. He uses it when he NEEDS it. Not being pressured into randomly casting it 3 times because of an annoying time constraint.

I understand exactly what you meant. However, you may need to re-read my post.

Your calculations are completely wrong (idk how, its incredibly simple)

Like you said, if he used all 3 charges in a fight, he would have to wait 75 seconds to do the same thing. On live, he would have to wait... 100/90/80 seconds to do the same thing (if he evolved it, otherwise he only gets 2 uses in that time)

How is putting it from 100/90/80 which is all restrained in one cooldown (again, if he evolved it), to a flex cooldown on 25x3 = 75 total seconds to recharge all 3, a nerf? He would have to wait 25/15/5 less seconds than on live to get his charges back to full. So no matter what its an incredible buff. In order for it to be a "nerf if he uses all of them at once", it would need to be 51/46/41+ seconds cooldown (50/45/40 second cooldown per charge un-evolved, on live), not 25 lmao. And thats before the 3rd free charge you want to allow him to hold. If you had this system and allowed him a 3rd charge on evolution, the cooldown would need to be 34/31/28+ in order to be a nerf if he used all charges. So even then, he is getting a BETTER CD than his Rank 3 evolved ult CD does on live... PLUS the charge system so he can use them whenever he wants?

Really not sure what you are thinking.

Igotlazy1 votes

{quoted}

I understand exactly what you meant. However, you may need to re-read my post.

Your calculations are completely wrong (idk how, its incredibly simple)

Like you said, if he used all 3 charges in a fight, he would have to wait 75 seconds to do the same thing. On live, he would have to wait... 100/90/80 seconds to do the same thing (if he evolved it, otherwise he only gets 2 uses in that time)

How is putting it from 100/90/80 which is all restrained in one cooldown (again, if he evolved it), to a flex cooldown on 25x3 = 75 total seconds to recharge all 3, a nerf? He would have to wait 25/15/5 less seconds than on live to get his charges back to full. So no matter what its an incredible buff. In order for it to be a "nerf if he uses all of them at once", it would need to be 51/46/41+ seconds cooldown (50/45/40 second cooldown per charge un-evolved, on live), not 25 lmao. And thats before the 3rd free charge you want to allow him to hold. If you had this system and allowed him a 3rd charge on evolution, the cooldown would need to be 34/31/28+ in order to be a nerf if he used all charges. So even then, he is getting a BETTER CD than his Rank 3 evolved ult CD does on live... PLUS the charge system so he can use them whenever he wants?

Really not sure what you are thinking.

Sorry, in my head when I was thinking of the idea to have ammo I was wondering if having the Cooldown scale with level and be reduced by CDR would be ok, I decided against it and made up the 25 second number to be static throughout the game. I never mentioned that in my post, my fault honestly forgive me if I seemed retarded there. Even so, the 25 is a tentative number, if 25 is too short than just pump it to 35. I'm just pitching an idea here. The problem I have with the current Kha'zix ult is that really only 1 or 2 casts max will actually be useful, if you open it up and let him use it a bit freely it would be a welcomed change in my opinion. I agree that some things may have to be tweaked around, such as the damage done by the passive for example.

Narzeim1 votes

I'm all for it.

Zirzon1 votes

I think we can agree that everyone's favorite bug isn't doing too hot right now.

I know, Elise has been struggling for quite some time!

Oh, you meant the other bug... Agreed, he needs help also.

Angelofchaos16x1 votes

Rengar >>>>>>>>>> Kha Deal with it

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

3 -> 4 on evolution.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

Having a free stealth would be very strong considering his passive is based off his ult. If he didnt have the passive I'd be all for the ammo like akali change tbh Maybe reduce his passive to half the damage and then increase the slow slightly.

TwoD1 votes

hes an assassin after all

KoKoboto1 votes

I like the idea but I think 3/4 charges is quite a lot imo

Small Tiddies1 votes

Can't agree unless Rengar can get an ammo system for his ult (10-15 secs cd before each cast). Rengar Don't kill the cat!

MrPiged1 votes

InB4 kha is next PBE champ... but i wouldnt know item 3070 Blitzcrank item 3070 (No PBE Life)

Knalxz1 votes

My problem with this is future Kha'zix. One thing you have to look at is his future beyond when other champions fall out of META and he becomes stronger. What will riot have to take away from him them, an entire rework?

The safe bet in my opinion is to tweak his damage and see how that runs. Damage can be given and taken away but reworks require lots of time and assets.

Wumachine1 votes

This change is good

Havik2231 votes

I like this idea. It opens up more avenues to play him and as far as I'm concerned the more options a champion has, the better.

Also I'm a Rengar main. Bugs are ugly.

Igotlazy1 votes

Wish a Red would respond. Would really like to hear what they think of the idea.

Troy2426211 votes

You had me until

Cats r dum Rengar

Big Barrel Boy1 votes

Boi rengar needs a buff too. Kha zix is kuch better thqn him at the moment and they should be equal

Big Barrel Boy1 votes

Can rengar get an adjust on his q? I feel like he should be more of a sinle target guy than an aoe. I like the aoe but i think it should have a smaller radius and the second part of the q should be buffed in terms of its range

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