Remove the stun from Qiyana's R

Valar Morghulís·Nov 2, 2019·51 votes·15,812 views

Her damage is already ridiculous, I feel removing the stun would at least leave some room for outplay potential and balance the champion a bit... a bit.

85 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonNov 2, 201915 votes

So...how are you compensating her for removing 90% of the use of her ult?

Pierce The VealNov 2, 201915 votes

The compensation was premeditated. Since it already takes 60-70% of a champ’s health in one hit.

Tomoe GozenNov 3, 20191 votes

You mean, she actually plays like an assassin and can deal damage to the squishies? What about Marksmen who deal the same damage with one ranged AA?

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20194 votes

A single ability doing that AND stunning AND having it be huge is a bit overloaded into one ability, though I will be the first to decry how op marksmen are, I feel qiyana needs the power shifted at the very least, if not outright removed.

Tomoe GozenNov 3, 20192 votes

I feel qiyana needs the power shifted at the very least, if not outright removed.

Oh wow, i'm actually reading the same "Akali needs nerfs" comment but for Qiyana.

Nerf what more, buddy? Ever since Qiyana's release, she's been nothing but nerfed and those weren't love taps.

9.15

Can Flash out of her E Ult CD increased from 100 to 120/100/80

9.17

Her E damage reduced by 10 on all ranks Ult CD increased from 120/100/80 to 120

9.20

Her Q damage (and empowered Q) reduced by -20/-15/-10/-5/0

Where to now? You keep cutting into her damage, she's not gonna have enough to threaten a kill. Riot already has done so by lowering her Q damage and removing reliability from her E (rightfully so) so she now HAS to ult too if she wants a kill, to put such a valuable ability on a long CD. If she gets her damage lowered again, she'll then have to retain her stun AND will strictly play through that or her Q pokes.

You can't remove her damage AND her conditional CC because she won't be able to perform as an assassin at that point. There's nowhere to shift the power from. Her W isn't being leveled at and the spells that are, have already been nerfed.

The only realistic way i see her getting nerfed is to halve the % max HP bonus damage her ult does - from 10% to 5%. But even then, let's calculate the actual damage her ult does: level 6: 100 + 170% bAD + 5% max HP. If she gets a 50 damage bonus, she will deal 100 + 85 + 50 (1000 HP target) = 235 damage pre-mitigation. Even lower once you take armor into account, that also scales per level. Which means that we've already hit a point where her damage is too low for an ult. 7.5% seems more reasonable.

Pierce The VealNov 4, 20193 votes

I mean you’re talking to an ex akali main. What I’ve obsevred is qiyana simply has too much of her power put in her ult just so it can be flashy. As an assassin her ult can do damage sure, but it shouldn’t be such that you press that to take 70% of someone’s hp AND stun them (not to mention it can do it to a whole team).

The thigh guyNov 2, 201943 votes

{quoted}

So...how are you compensating her for removing 90% of the use of her ult?

Compensation buffs are the REASON this game is so power crept. If something is broken, it needs it power level reduced, not left the same.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 3, 20194 votes

So...you're planning to also nerf half the roster just to remove her stun on R? Because she's not strong enough to justify nerfs without compensation.

The thigh guyNov 3, 201910 votes

{quoted}

So...you're planning to also nerf half the roster just to remove her stun on R? Because she's not strong enough to justify nerfs without compensation.

Champions have been GUTTED for less.

Perfect example being tahm kench. He was absolutely gutted with no compensation for a 51.8% winrate.

Oh oh oh. How about akali. She was gutted for a 47% winrate. With no compensation.

Compensation buffs are bullshit so riot can keep shit like riven meta and act like they are fixing her. When in reality they just keep moving power from her e to her q then back to her e.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 3, 20192 votes

TK was OP in coordinated play.

Akali was busted in high tier.

The thigh guyNov 3, 201926 votes

{quoted}

TK was OP in coordinated play.

Akali was busted in high tier.

Hey look. Qiyana fits BOTH of these conditions.

Tomoe GozenNov 3, 20191 votes

Except that Quyana herself is not like Zed or Talon. If she's behind, as an Assassin she's literally a no damage champion. She has to go in and can't kill anyone and can't get out. So the only thing for her is to have a utility through her R.

If you want that removed, she now can be flashed out to not apply her E damage and her Q and R are skillshots. You have an assassin that's all skillshots and no CC whatsoever. Her mobility is conditional with W and there would literally be no reason to pick her again unless you buff up her damage to absurd levels so that one hit from her rock Q deletes half of your HP. And that's exactly how she's gonna be played as, in that hypothetical situation.

GelsominoKillerNov 3, 20196 votes

Look friend, all assassins from behind suck hard; some more than others.

An assassin that when behind can still pull off a teamwide stun wombo with a single skill has it good.

Too good, actually.

The thigh guyNov 3, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-03T19:48:00.226+0000)

Except that Quyana herself is not like Zed or Talon. If she's behind, as an Assassin she's literally a no damage champion. She has to go in and can't kill anyone and can't get out. So the only thing for her is to have a utility through her R.

If you want that removed, she now can be flashed out to not apply her E damage and her Q and R are skillshots. You have an assassin that's all skillshots and no CC whatsoever. Her mobility is conditional with W and there would literally be no reason to pick her again unless you buff up her damage to absurd levels so that one hit from her rock Q deletes half of your HP. And that's exactly how she's gonna be played as, in that hypothetical situation.

A skillshot based assassin with conditional mobility. Hmmmm. Sounds like how ALL ASSASSIN SHOULD BE.

Tomoe GozenNov 3, 20191 votes

Wow, i can really tell you're salty about assassins being viable at all. Tell me, my thigh guy, what reason would there be for anyone to play a melee assassin that has no mobility in the right situation and doesn't actually have the power to kill anyone from their full combo?

Because Pyke is apparently not allowed to execute you bellow a certain HP threshold (because it's "REEE OP CHAMP") and according to some people, they shouldn't even be allowed to kill people as they do. So what's left of the options?

Assassins are opportunistic champions and that means picking their fight or angle they want to approach a target from to deliver the damage where it should hurt. If they have to go through 4 other people just to get to that squishy, there's no freaking point in playing a champion that's that gimped from the start. But if that's the case, they should be granted the ability to nuke literally anyone they have to go through.

Your idea sounds exactly like everyone else wanting a piece of the pie and assassins not getting any.

The thigh guyNov 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-03T22:57:24.812+0000)

Wow, i can really tell you're salty about assassins being viable at all. Tell me, my thigh guy, what reason would there be for anyone to play a melee assassin that has no mobility in the right situation and doesn't actually have the power to kill anyone from their full combo?

Because Pyke is apparently not allowed to execute you bellow a certain HP threshold (because it's "REEE OP CHAMP") and according to some people, they shouldn't even be allowed to kill people as they do. So what's left of the options?

Assassins are opportunistic champions and that means picking their fight or angle they want to approach a target from to deliver the damage where it should hurt. If they have to go through 4 other people just to get to that squishy, there's no freaking point in playing a champion that's that gimped from the start. But if that's the case, they should be granted the ability to nuke literally anyone they have to go through.

Your idea sounds exactly like everyone else wanting a piece of the pie and assassins not getting any.

Assassins already have the least counterplay in this game. Giving them hard cc was a mistake in itself.

Can we just give every adc more mobility? I mean it’s only fair.

Tomoe GozenNov 4, 20191 votes

Assassins already have the least counterplay in this game. Giving them hard cc was a mistake in itself.

Again i ask you, what is allowed for an Assassin to have? Zed has mobility and no CC but people complain when he gets his kills.

Pyke only has the damage to bring you to his execute threshold, which is a pseudo-kill ability. His ult damage outside of that is piss poor. And he can't even go anywhere else (jungle or mid) due to his waveclear being removed entirely. So he's not allowed to solo lane due to his nerfs.

Qiyana can't kill your from her basic combo unless she ults too. And she's actually useful if she's not ahead enough to instakill people? "BAH, FUCK THAT REEEEE! TOO OPIEEEE!!!1!!"

What is that golden middle where an Assassin can do their business and also not get on anyone's bad side? Because i can already tell you that people just want to circlejerk this shit into oblivion because they don't want to even have a single death in a game - they want an invulnerability status while they get to carry and pretend they're Fakers of their ELO.

The thigh guyNov 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-04T13:16:35.811+0000)

Again i ask you, what is allowed for an Assassin to have? Zed has mobility and no CC but people complain when he gets his kills.

Pyke only has the damage to bring you to his execute threshold, which is a pseudo-kill ability. His ult damage outside of that is piss poor. And he can't even go anywhere else (jungle or mid) due to his waveclear being removed entirely. So he's not allowed to solo lane due to his nerfs.

Qiyana can't kill your from her basic combo unless she ults too. And she's actually useful if she's not ahead enough to instakill people? "BAH, FUCK THAT REEEEE! TOO OPIEEEE!!!1!!"

What is that golden middle where an Assassin can do their business and also not get on anyone's bad side? Because i can already tell you that people just want to circlejerk this shit into oblivion because they don't want to even have a single death in a game - they want an invulnerability status while they get to carry and pretend they're Fakers of their ELO.

Zed has a kit that only allowed him to play the game. He decides everything. You just get to hope he fucks up.

Oh wow. Pyke’s ult damage sucks if you aren’t in kill threshold. Good thing the kill threshold is 1/3 of your hp and he’ll never use his ult before then.

As for her not being able to kill without her ult. That bullshit and you know it. There are an endless amount of clips of her pulling out 100-0 kills at level 2-3 with ignite.

And there is no middle ground. The class doesn’t allow it. There is no “balanced” assassin. Killing a target with as little time to react is their job, and job job is inherently broken.

Tomoe GozenNov 5, 20191 votes

Oh wow. Pyke’s ult damage sucks if you aren’t in kill threshold. Good thing the kill threshold is 1/3 of your hp and he’ll never use his ult before then.

Have you looked at Pyke's ult scaling or are you just blowing smoke out of your ass? Because it does seem like everyone who has a problem with these champions overblow their abilities out of proportion, relative to their hate towards them.

As for her not being able to kill without her ult. That bullshit and you know it. There are an endless amount of clips of her pulling out 100-0 kills at level 2-3 with ignite.

I play Qiyana and i know i can't kill shit on level 2-3 given she was nerfed for this exact strength. That's exactly what was the problem before all of her nerfs, given she could QEQ you into Electrocute and blow you apart without even breaking a sweat. You are working with old information.

And there is no middle ground. The class doesn’t allow it. There is no “balanced” assassin. Killing a target with as little time to react is their job, and job job is inherently broken.

I didn't ask you whether one Assassin in League is "balanced" according to your opinion. I asked you to describe a balanced Assassin or their play pattern.

The thigh guyNov 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-05T11:29:14.144+0000)

Have you looked at Pyke's ult scaling or are you just blowing smoke out of your ass? Because it does seem like everyone who has a problem with these champions overblow their abilities out of proportion, relative to their hate towards them.

I play Qiyana and i know i can't kill shit on level 2-3 given she was nerfed for this exact strength. That's exactly what was the problem before all of her nerfs, given she could QEQ you into Electrocute and blow you apart without even breaking a sweat. You are working with old information.

I didn't ask you whether one Assassin in League is "balanced" according to your opinion. I asked you to describe a balanced Assassin or their play pattern.

And I gave you an answer. With riots current description of assassins their is no balance for them. They are either broken out their asses or worthless.

Serika ZeroNov 4, 20193 votes

yes, but actually no. If Qiana is behind she still has a huge aoe stun and a snare to make picks. Talon only has damage. Zed only has damage.

So you got it backwards, while yes, the queen bitch is not like Zed and Talon. She's actually useful even when behind.

InfernapeNov 4, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-03T19:48:00.226+0000)

Except that Quyana herself is not like Zed or Talon. If she's behind, as an Assassin she's literally a no damage champion. She has to go in and can't kill anyone and can't get out. So the only thing for her is to have a utility through her R.

If you want that removed, she now can be flashed out to not apply her E damage and her Q and R are skillshots. You have an assassin that's all skillshots and no CC whatsoever. Her mobility is conditional with W and there would literally be no reason to pick her again unless you buff up her damage to absurd levels so that one hit from her rock Q deletes half of your HP. And that's exactly how she's gonna be played as, in that hypothetical situation.

And unlike every other assassin she has utility. Even if she's behind, her ultimate is literally gamechanging. It is on par with ult like Orianna's simply because it's a giant ass AoE stun that deals %max health damage as well as flat damage. All it takes is one fight around a baron pit or Dragon and Qiyana has a field day.

Zed and Talon and most other assassins from behind are literal deadweight as they lack the damage to assassinate and they do not have no utility aside from slows. She isn't them.

YoRHa Type B No2Nov 2, 201933 votes

How do you justify an assassin having one of the best teamfight ultimate in the game that can stun a whole team and chuck them for almost all their health (squishies) ???

Tr4shB4NSYST3MNov 2, 201922 votes

Exactly this, her ult is on par with amumu ult on an assassin.

Z3SIeeperNov 3, 20195 votes

On par? Pretty sure it's strictly better.

Little WitcheryNov 3, 20199 votes

I'm tired of this brainless circlejerk. It's situationally better. Amumu can ult in empty lanes. Qiyana does even in river and better in the jungle.

MorganFreemanBotNov 2, 201926 votes

{quoted}

So...how are you compensating her for removing 90% of the use of her ult?

There shouldn't be any.

Qiyana's ulti would be extremely strong with just the knock back + damage component, as it's still an immense nuke with a gigantic range that displaces numerous people and can afflict a positively massive zone depending on where you use it.

Having a hard stun ONTOP of all of that is nuts. There's a reason she's pick / ban in the pro scene.

Crescent DuskNov 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

There shouldn't be any.

Qiyana's ulti would be extremely strong with just the knock back + damage component, as it's still an immense nuke with a gigantic range that displaces numerous people and can afflict a positively massive zone depending on where you use it.

Having a hard stun ONTOP of all of that is nuts. There's a reason she's pick / ban in the pro scene.

lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up.

She has abysmal waveclear, which cripples her lane prio, and she falls off hard like Katarina and Talon.

Her whole kits revolves around the environment, so don't be damn next to a wall with a Qiyana in game, same as you wouldn't with a Poppy or Vayne.

I can't believe people are still whining about assassins when worlds has been nothing but mages and adc's in mid lane.

ArtumisPrimeNov 3, 201913 votes

lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up.

I am honestly floored by just how wrong you are here.

Since the bracket stage start, she has a 100% pick/ban presence.

Source: https://lol.gamepedia.com/2019_Season_World_Championship/Main_Event/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage

She also has a 91.4% pick/ban presence in the entire tournament.

Source: https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/145/season-ALL/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202019/patch-ALL/role-ALL/league-ALL/

You. Are. So. SO. Wrong.

GelsominoKillerNov 3, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2019-11-03T05:24:27.011+0000)

lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up.

Jesus Christ dude. At least look things up before writing that level of buffoonery

musixxalNov 2, 201912 votes

the ult doesn't function without the stun lol. neither does the champion :/

WTBeGirl100EUhrNov 2, 20193 votes

you can make the ult detonation faster to make the ult function

musixxalNov 3, 20197 votes

{quoted}

you can make the ult detonation faster to make the ult function

and then it becomes undodgeable.

TalisidNov 3, 201911 votes

I think if it only stunned enemies that you knocked into the wall with the first part of the ultimate, that would be fair. Giant AOE stuns belong on control mages, not assassins, but locking down a single target is fine, IMO.

AbandonNov 3, 20198 votes

It baffles me that people are so blind to the fact that NO, say it with me, ZERO, assassins should have an ultimate with the impact and team-fight potential of a dedicated tank. This whole 'let's make champions fit multiple roles' has been fucking disaster. Aatrox, Akali, Irelia, Pyke, Qiyana, Sylas and soon to be Senna. It doesn't fucking work.

FurriesAreHotNov 4, 20192 votes

Worked with Vi Worked with Kindred (eventually) Worked with Jarvan IV

AbandonNov 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Worked with Vi Worked with Kindred (eventually) Worked with Jarvan IV

I think you misunderstood what I meant when I say, 'let's make champions that fit multiple roles'. I don't mean champions that are ABLE to play different roles, I'm talking about from a design standpoint, how Riot designs new champions with so many extra things so that they not only are able to perform in different roles/lanes but also do good in them, hence my list of champions.

Now I don't doubt, that someone somewhere can probably play Vi top or mid, but she's as grounded as a diver jungler can be and so is Jarvan. Their roles are pretty defined regardless of where they are or how they build. Yes, you can build them 'assassin' but you can do that with anyone with decent scaling, it doesn't really make them an assassin because they don't have 'get out of jail cards' like assassins do, they're still full damage bruisers/divers. Now Kindred is a bit interesting in that there's not many champions like her however saying that, she's still grounded in what she wants to accomplish. She's still 100% a marksman and plays pretty much as intended the only difference is that they made her almost specifically for the jungle. While she can play lanes, her passive wants to keep her on the move so she can collect her marks and increase her power.

If you look back at the list I wrote, let's explore what different characterisations they took to be able to perform different roles.

Aatrox - Was released as a tank, bruiser, assassin hybrid. He had the damage of an assassin while building bruiser and his playstyle revolved around setting up 1 shots on people while having bruiser stats and manoeuvrability as well the utility of a tank with 4 hard CC's and 1 slow built in his kit. Notice how he plays nothing like a juggernaut. They've changed him since but he's still a bit of a mess. You could play him literally anywhere.

Akali - Released as a bruiser assassin where her damage pattern was spread out and resulted in her engaging in prolonged, sustain wars that would eventually scale into burst per second. She also had the safety of an overloaded assassin, with 4 escape measures not even counting the passive movement speed buff as well as the sustain of a bruiser making her a nightmare to deal with. Was flexed between top and mid.

Irelia - Released as a bruiser, carry, assassin with the utility of a tank. This champion reminds me of the legend of release Xin Zhao. She could fight anyone, could 100-0 squishies in an instant, had insane mobility, had insane durability and had an ultimate that was literally a game changer. Like Aatrox, she was played almost everywhere.

These are just a few examples, but I think you get what I mean now?

FurriesAreHotNov 5, 20193 votes

I do get what you mean now. I do think though it’s not the issue of trying to make a character like irelia a bruiser carry inherently, but the tools she has being too good. Totally agree with stuff like “bruiser assassin” Akali being a mistake.

Thanks for taking the time to breakdown your thoughts and elaborate for me.

AbandonNov 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I do get what you mean now. I do think though it’s not the issue of trying to make a character like irelia a bruiser carry inherently, but the tools she has being too good. Totally agree with stuff like “bruiser assassin” Akali being a mistake.

Thanks for taking the time to breakdown your thoughts and elaborate for me.

Yup, agreed. Champions that have slight cross overs with other classes are fine. Champions designed with a billion tools to handle any and every situation, yeah that's a no from me.

Glad my breakdown made sense haha! :)

KovieNov 3, 20197 votes

It just makes no sense...Assassins are supposed to be high damage, mobile, CC-less. But lately they have it all, like Pyke who has a hook and a stun, and qiyana with q stun and r.

Nik NikersonNov 3, 20191 votes

Yes, but Pyke has a hook and stun because he's a support assassin. Without them, he's just an assassin.

Aatrox EichmannNov 4, 20193 votes

an assassin is made to take out high priority targets. having one start off in the bot lane where the priority target farms up is already bad, but thing is assassins are made to have high damage and mobility but if they make a mistake their kit prevents them from coming back.

if you want to punish an early game oriented assasin, you must either wait for them to fall off, group up heavily or abuse them early to make sure they cant be useful.

but a champion with a hook, an aoe stun and a refreshable AOE teamwide execute that grants bonus gold is just never going to be useless. at no point is pyke going to fall off.

his strengths are the early-mid and lategame where he gets kill pressure starting level 2, roams for global pressure after item 3117 and gets to be an insane teamfighter.

Nik NikersonNov 4, 20191 votes

I'm not claiming Pyke isn't overloaded, nor am I claiming Pyke is healthy for the game. I'm pointing out why he has those things in his kit: It's to fulfill his role as a support. The more I've thought about it, the more I believe Pyke is well designed for a support assassin character. He checks all the boxes and their solutions to make him work in both roles are actually kind of clever. The real problem is the very concept of a support assassin. It just shouldn't exist. It's a terrible combination that's inherently unhealthy, and a prime example of the pitfalls designing something just to say you've done it.

SpongebobIsLifeNov 3, 20194 votes

I think that's pretty hefty. I think we should start by nerfing her mana costs, because those are practically non-existent atm. Like seriously, when was the last time you saw a Qyiana go oom in lane?

Somebody Love MeNov 3, 20191 votes

Qiyana Mana costs are pretty decent. Only thing is she takes biscuits time Warp, while starting corrupting to help with her Mana issues

SpongebobIsLifeNov 3, 20195 votes

I disagree. Compare her mana regen/base mana/mana costs, to another mid melee lane assassin with high lane kill pressure, like fizz, and the difference is obvious.

Higher mana costs would also make it harder for her to push and roam.

Somebody Love MeNov 6, 20191 votes

But consider how spammable her abilities are. Compare a longsword refillable Qiyana to a Corrupting timewarp biscuit qiyana. The former is oom all the time.

SpongebobIsLifeNov 6, 20192 votes

if that was all it took not to go oom, we would see talon and fizz going that rune page all the time, yet they don't.

Somebody Love MeNov 7, 20191 votes

When they start corrupting it's hard to go oom lol

But also Qiyana, out of the three mentioned champs, has the most spammable abilities, so of course she goes oom when the others don't.

SpongebobIsLifeNov 8, 20191 votes

fizz does go oom all the time even when starting corrupting potion, and he has arguably less kill pressure in lane, no ranged farm abilities, and has a worse teamfight. Her mana costs need to be the first thing hit above all else.