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Is diversity good or bad?

King Lego··4 votes·3,815 views

My answer would be: Diversity is all 50/50.

The thing i see about diversity and so many say "there is no diversity! this game sucks!" which they are not wrong, while others say "too much diversity! i can't play my champion!" and guess what....they are not wrong either!

It's all opinion to an extent that you can't know if it's a fact or not.

Let's say Irelia mid. I play mid lane and main Vel'Koz, and Irelia mid to me is the most unhealthy thing in League. But does it mean i'm right about it? Maybe the player who plays Irelia mid thinks that what he's playing is healthy or not?

Diversity is never good nor bad. It's just how we all see. It's all just bias really. Even from me. Like bruisers bot, ADC mains were pissed at it and thought it was unhealthy, but maybe those who played bruisers thought it was healthy.

It's all a double edged sword really. But to my own perspective, if there is no diversity, there will be problems, if there is diversity, there will still be problems. I guess, when you go diverse on a playstyle and happen to beat the crap out of your opponent, the opponent becomes so tilted that he rages up a post on boards or reddit? But honestly, can you blame them?

What's your opinion about this?

Edit: To those who voted the 4th option. hahahaha No. After 19 years of Lego as my primary hobby, the pain is nothing to me now. Next level adapting!

39 Comments

Hexs Fortune4 votes

In a game with over 150 pokemon, i'd like to see the cast actually being used. Having everyone run around with the same 30 champs all the time is lame.

Spank the Fox4 votes

Pokemon is divided by tiers competitively though.

chipndip12 votes

In Smogon's shit, yeah.

In actual tournament, no.

Spank the Fox3 votes

it’s still tiered in VGC unofficially though, like League tier lists.

Sure you can “pick whatever you want” but between Lando-T and Incineroar in 99.9% of every game and the game spammed with Legendaries or Pseudos, Pokemon isn’t a good comparison as you see the same handful of pokmon out of 700+.

And just like in Pokemon, you can do whatever you want in non-competitively play in League. But every competitive game is going to have a meta where certain champs are better and/or picked more often than others.

The only solution is Smogon-ifying League or doing something Overwatch does in their game mode where if you use a champion, you can’t pick them again until all the matches are over.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T07:12:48.031+0000)

it’s still tiered in VGC unofficially though, like League tier lists.

Sure you can “pick whatever you want” but between Lando-T and Incineroar in 99.9% of every game and the game spammed with Legendaries or Pseudos, Pokemon isn’t a good comparison as you see the same handful of pokmon out of 700+.

And just like in Pokemon, you can do whatever you want in non-competitively play in League. But every competitive game is going to have a meta where certain champs are better and/or picked more often than others.

The only solution is Smogon-ifying League or doing something Overwatch does in their game mode where if you use a champion, you can’t pick them again until all the matches are over.

Hey, man, people figure out off-meta stuff in Pokemon. Not in every season, but depending on the rule set, yeah. It's really the "All legendaries allowed" seasons that are...really fucking bad for diversity. Still, that's how Pokemon is. Pokemon's a game where you use weaker monsters to obtain the stronger monsters. When the strongest ones are open season, you're gonna see a shit ton of the strongest ones.

Well, in order to tie all this back to League: League SHOULDN'T be balanced like Pokemon in that way. We don't use Jinx to obtain Kai'Sa. There should be a better form of balance for champs in the game.

King Lego1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-11T02:21:18.726+0000)

In a game with over 150 pokemon, i'd like to see the cast actually being used. Having everyone run around with the same 30 champs all the time is lame.

It makes me wonder. 150 champions, only feels like there is only 30. Then why even bother wasting time, money and resources for creating the rest of the 120 champions? If i was a designer of one of the 120 champions, or maybe the designer of insert most forgotten champion i'd be really pissed.

DaTrout772 votes

Diversity isnt really the issue, if its unbalanced or unhealthy then its bad whether its diverse or not. If your talking purely Diversity then its neither good nor bad its preference.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Diversity isnt really the issue, if its unbalanced or unhealthy then its bad whether its diverse or not. If your talking purely Diversity then its neither good nor bad its preference.

Yeah, Tank Victor and Irelia mid are unbalanced and unhealthy for sure.

saltran2 votes

Like bruisers bot

You mean mages bot and Irelia.

saltran3 votes

Overall I think that diversity is bad, that's why you had on this same Boards a circlejerk about how op and unbalanced Vayne top was when Vayne top has always been a terrible pick but it didn't mattered because toplaners hated her just for the idea of facing an ADC in lane.

And I understand them, I disagree on one point because Vayne top was never strong but it's fine that they hated it, well, looking at the toplane pickrate she had maybe they exaggerated a bit.

But Toplaners hating the idea of toplane Vayne being meta is completely fine for me.

3TWarrior2 votes

at the time, they hated vayne top because she scaled into a hyper-carry, could build any way she desired, could not be counter-built, has an escape for every situation and can roam better than a large number of top laners...

teemo top and other ranged tops are the reason that she died down in addition to the jungler gank-fest

she'd still be a terror if these changes had not happened

jax was probably the only top laner that could face a vayne evenly, maybe illaoi..champs that don't care about her mobility or auto-attack based damage

overall though, it was probably the backlash they would get for not playing a tank...

saltran1 votes

at the time, they hated vayne top because she scaled into a hyper-carry, could build any way she desired, could not be counter-built, has an escape for every situation and can roam better than a large number of top laners...

Now, this is the kind of hipérbole that I was talking about.

You are wrong, Vayne top was never strong, she was never even close to be meta.

When Vayne bot on preseason last year had 53% winrate and needed nerfs Vayne top was still at like 48% and also with much less pickrate.

You guys hated her because she is an adc intended to go botlane that was being viable, not op, in your lane and it was apparently the most unfun and terrible thing to ever happen in this game for how some ppl reacted.

In fact I remember a louder outcry for Vayne top last year that I repeat: was never meta than with Viktor top that sure is meta and a huge problem.

3TWarrior1 votes

It seems there has been a miscommunication as I was referring to seasons 4, 5 and probably early 6, after which, the sudden surge of ranged top laners and the changes to jungling effectively shut her down, hence what you said about her higher bottom lane win-rate

she is still annoying for a top-laner to face, but she is no longer durable enough to handle the meta

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

You mean mages bot and Irelia.

Well, that too at the very least.

Jinxalot1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz7OziTRNGs

TheSingularity1 votes

Does certainly depend.

Generally healthy diversity involves champions trading one thing for another. What we've seen with glacial augment builds and the recent tank viktor/lissandra, similar to the tank assassins of season 5/6 is unhealthy diversity. Because they trade almost nothing for the advantages they gain. Ahri, vel'koz and sion gain a slow. But due to the rune tree interactions they don't actually lose that much damage in exchange for a slow they can reliably apply to the enemy. The tank build makes both respective champs stupidly hard to kill yet they're able to kite and shred me as good as ever.

If I were to say, go bruiser brand like I did in S4, I sacrifice a tonne of upfront burst and drop off a cliff post 30min. But in exchange I become a beefy battle mage focusing on my DOT and keeping enemies slowed with rylai. It made me a far bigger threat because the enemy kha zix couldn't just pop me. Because I'd survive his entire combo, CC him and get away. Full AD illaoi. Sure I get to pop people like no tommorow. But I also get popped easily in exchange.

.

If we talk purely champion diversity. There's no downside to all champions being equally viable at what they're meant to do. Because then everyone, can play anything they like.

3TWarrior1 votes

well, one problem is that champions were intended with roles that they were supposed to fill, not positions

players find ways for champions to play in a variety of positions and sometimes it's too powerful

take illaoi for example. She was intended to be a very tough champion that scales well, but her skillshots were where all of her power lies

people have figured out that she can go mid in the past and use her durability against mages/assassins with ease

only now are people rediscovering that some matchups don't work well and can give an advantage because it plays off of people's habits and the "traditional" meta

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Does certainly depend.

Generally healthy diversity involves champions trading one thing for another. What we've seen with glacial augment builds and the recent tank viktor/lissandra, similar to the tank assassins of season 5/6 is unhealthy diversity. Because they trade almost nothing for the advantages they gain. Ahri, vel'koz and sion gain a slow. But due to the rune tree interactions they don't actually lose that much damage in exchange for a slow they can reliably apply to the enemy. The tank build makes both respective champs stupidly hard to kill yet they're able to kite and shred me as good as ever.

If I were to say, go bruiser brand like I did in S4, I sacrifice a tonne of upfront burst and drop off a cliff post 30min. But in exchange I become a beefy battle mage focusing on my DOT and keeping enemies slowed with rylai. It made me a far bigger threat because the enemy kha zix couldn't just pop me. Because I'd survive his entire combo, CC him and get away. Full AD illaoi. Sure I get to pop people like no tommorow. But I also get popped easily in exchange.

.

If we talk purely champion diversity. There's no downside to all champions being equally viable at what they're meant to do. Because then everyone, can play anything they like.

I remember going full tank Vel'Koz with only like 2 AP items (old morello and Zhonya) with builds like item 3047 item 3742 item 3083 item 3075 (when all AD mostly) and still able to one shot. By the way, Vel'Koz doesn't need Glacial Augment. His Q is already a slow. That rune is just used as a big "i don't want to use geometry and hit my Q like a math genius" since it can be proced by everything even aa. I think Vel'Koz Q has a bigger slow than Glacial though. I'm not sure, i don't know how much Glacial Augment can slow.

TheSingularity1 votes

I know he doesn't need it at all. I was simply using it as an example

Silly Neeko1 votes

Stepping on legos hurt. 9/10 not recommended unless you are a masochist mundo main.

Side note, you can play pretty much anyone anywhere if you so choose with varying degrees of success. Theres people that take sona Top and mid, some that take Yasuo bott and jung, some that take Blitz jung/top/mid/mundogoeswherehepleasessyndrome.

It is funny to legitamtely tilt katarina players by taking Soraka mid. They cant do anything about her, they cant poke her down without some EXTREME outplays. They cant gank and kill cause pings and ulti.... since Soraka players generally have good map awareness and ally hp health bar awarenesses....

Also funny when you take Naut top and kill a Darius and they are just dumbfounded. Plus makeing a Kleds life hell so much that you are 1v3ing him and his midlaner and jungler buddies every time you get in lane.... and are winning.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Stepping on legos hurt. 9/10 not recommended unless you are a masochist mundo main.

Side note, you can play pretty much anyone anywhere if you so choose with varying degrees of success. Theres people that take sona Top and mid, some that take Yasuo bott and jung, some that take Blitz jung/top/mid/mundogoeswherehepleasessyndrome.

It is funny to legitamtely tilt katarina players by taking Soraka mid. They cant do anything about her, they cant poke her down without some EXTREME outplays. They cant gank and kill cause pings and ulti.... since Soraka players generally have good map awareness and ally hp health bar awarenesses....

Also funny when you take Naut top and kill a Darius and they are just dumbfounded. Plus makeing a Kleds life hell so much that you are 1v3ing him and his midlaner and jungler buddies every time you get in lane.... and are winning.

Yeah 19 years of Lego as my primary hobby, i'm use to the pain. And i don't even main Mundo!

Oh i remember a Katarina player (i think enemy) being stomped by a tank champion. It made that Katarina player so toxic and flaming non-stop. I forgot who the ally mid was...i think Maokai.

Beatrice falls1 votes

"Diversity" isn't the problem itself, the problem is then this "diversity" turns into "play this or lose". Playing something new on a lane and having it with no weaknesses (tank Viktor top for instance or inting Sion) is indeed some kind of diversity, but not healthy picks.

Viktor was never intended to be built nearly full tank, dealing average damage and shitting on every top laner Sion has never been intended to kill himself over and over to take down towers

King Lego1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-11-11T03:26:18.133+0000)

"Diversity" isn't the problem itself, the problem is then this "diversity" turns into "play this or lose". Playing something new on a lane and having it with no weaknesses (tank Viktor top for instance or inting Sion) is indeed some kind of diversity, but not healthy picks.

Viktor was never intended to be built nearly full tank, dealing average damage and shitting on every top laner Sion has never been intended to kill himself over and over to take down towers

I haven't seen tank Victor top yet. But int Sion is so frustrating...the only one who can solo kill a tank Sion is Vayne!

Tobykachu1 votes

Diversity is good until it crowds out the champions that are intended for the role in question. If a champion can fill out two roles effectively then that's good. If a champion is top tier in two roles then that's not too bad, but also not ideal either, but if a champion is so good in a role they were not intended for that they drown out the other champions in that particular role then that's bad.

If Viktor top was mediocre pick, viable but not overwhelming then it'd be fine, but the fact he shuts down almost all melee top laners, which is the overwhelming majority of the champions that get played there, then that's no good.

Kayle can be played top and jungle pretty decently, and can even go mid to some success and that's the ideal kind of champion diversity.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Diversity is good until it crowds out the champions that are intended for the role in question. If a champion can fill out two roles effectively then that's good. If a champion is top tier in two roles then that's not too bad, but also not ideal either, but if a champion is so good in a role they were not intended for that they drown out the other champions in that particular role then that's bad.

If Viktor top was mediocre pick, viable but not overwhelming then it'd be fine, but the fact he shuts down almost all melee top laners, which is the overwhelming majority of the champions that get played there, then that's no good.

Kayle can be played top and jungle pretty decently, and can even go mid to some success and that's the ideal kind of champion diversity.

I remember Quinn being played Top, jungle, mid, and ADC. I really hated that so much.

But Kayle jungle? The only roles i see Kayle fit much is top, mid and support. I use to play Kayle support, and i 1st timed Kayle mid to counter Fizz. Oh how amazing that was. Turned that Fizz into sushi.

Tobykachu1 votes

Sadly with jungle experience being nerfed and the meta being more focused on champions that can repeatedly non stop gank, Kayle jungle has fallen quite far out of the meta. I just feel as though Kayle is the perfect example of how diversity should be. She can play multiple roles, but isn't over bearing in any of them. Now Viktor on the other hand completely decimates most top lane match ups and renders 90% of the top lane champion pool completely obsolete.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Sadly with jungle experience being nerfed and the meta being more focused on champions that can repeatedly non stop gank, Kayle jungle has fallen quite far out of the meta. I just feel as though Kayle is the perfect example of how diversity should be. She can play multiple roles, but isn't over bearing in any of them. Now Viktor on the other hand completely decimates most top lane match ups and renders 90% of the top lane champion pool completely obsolete.

Maybe to you Kayle is not a problem. To some she's a cancer to certain roles like jg.

SithesisLord1 votes

Unless her team dedicates all 5 bans to all meta junglers and even then, Kayle jungle is going to put zero map pressure for 25 minutes.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

Unless her team dedicates all 5 bans to all meta junglers and even then, Kayle jungle is going to put zero map pressure for 25 minutes.

I never saw Kayle jungle anyway. I don't think i'll be looking forward to play that, or get that on my team or enemy team.

I tried Vel'Koz jungle before like 2 seasons ago. I can like go full damage without the need of getting to the lane fully due to my Q and Ulti.

SithesisLord1 votes

She was only really good during the Sated Devourer meta, and only because Sated Devourer existed. After they nerfed 5 AD and took away Sated Devourer, she less than gracefully fell into jungle unviability.

Tobykachu1 votes

But she objectively isn't a problem -

  • Relatively low pick rate
  • Relatively low ban rate
  • No buffs/nerfs planned for the upcoming patches
  • Not played often in competitve
  • Can successfully perform in multiple roles

She is an example of an ideally versatile champion

FullmuteAll play1 votes

I would say stable balanced diversity is good. It means there are many good champions, comps and tactics to play. And all of them are viable, picking one thing will not get destroyed by something else. But it is kinda utopia of course..

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

I would say stable balanced diversity is good. It means there are many good champions, comps and tactics to play. And all of them are viable, picking one thing will not get destroyed by something else. But it is kinda utopia of course..

Unfortunately, what you said is the opposite of what it is today. "all of them are viable" yeah the last time i had that thought was like season 4. Now the game feels there is just 30 champions.

Baby Ghoul1 votes

The problem with the diversity bandwagon on the gameplay boards is that nobody is willing to discuss how the champion will interact with other champions that call that lane home. The majority of people just want to take their one-trick pony to another lane and won't give a second thought to how that's going to play out for the people they're facing.

There are so many examples that we all flash back to that show why unplanned diversity is terrible.

King Lego1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baby Ghoul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-11-11T09:20:51.206+0000)

The problem with the diversity bandwagon on the gameplay boards is that nobody is willing to discuss how the champion will interact with other champions that call that lane home. The majority of people just want to take their one-trick pony to another lane and won't give a second thought to how that's going to play out for the people they're facing.

There are so many examples that we all flash back to that show why unplanned diversity is terrible.

"won't give a second thought to how that's going to play out for the people they're facing." To be fair, you're playing to win...the least of your concern is if your opponent's feelings get hurt because of the pick and such.

But let's be real here, most us where that opponent that got tilted af from a pick like you said.

AR URF1 votes

Oh you're not talking about the diversity I'm thinking of. thing is that ADC's have to stick next to their supports in order to pop off. Or they have to be next to someone. Like this passed game that I played. I was Lissandra mid and my adc was Caitlyn. she was attacking my mid laneEkko who could easily 100-0 her. But because I caught up and ulted him, she was able to kill him. For me I have escape tools and such so it's easier to escape bad situations.

King Lego1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-11-11T09:43:43.540+0000)

Oh you're not talking about the diversity I'm thinking of. thing is that ADC's have to stick next to their supports in order to pop off. Or they have to be next to someone. Like this passed game that I played. I was Lissandra mid and my adc was Caitlyn. she was attacking my mid laneEkko who could easily 100-0 her. But because I caught up and ulted him, she was able to kill him. For me I have escape tools and such so it's easier to escape bad situations.

Ah....i'm sorry but how is that diversity?!? [zombie-brand-mindblown] The topic is literally about whether it's good or bad to play champions on the roles they are not meant for much as well as builds too (which i probably should have mentioned too to be more specific).

AR URF2 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-11-11T10:02:40.283+0000)

Ah....i'm sorry but how is that diversity?!? [zombie-brand-mindblown] The topic is literally about whether it's good or bad to play champions on the roles they are not meant for much as well as builds too (which i probably should have mentioned too to be more specific).

You're talking about bruisers bot, which worked for a time. ADC's can't really go any other lane because they need peel, which would be their support. Well unless you're playing Quinn top. Assassins just can't 1v1 bruisers unless they're fed.

I'm just indirectly saying that ADC's are bad for mid and top because I've seen threads before about ADC's going to different lanes.

King Lego1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Ao93qtn,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T10:30:30.821+0000)

You're talking about bruisers bot, which worked for a time. ADC's can't really go any other lane because they need peel, which would be their support. Well unless you're playing Quinn top. Assassins just can't 1v1 bruisers unless they're fed.

I'm just indirectly saying that ADC's are bad for mid and top because I've seen threads before about ADC's going to different lanes.

Well I've seen Lucian mid, MF mid, Quinn top, Ezreal mid, and Xayah mid. Can't say all worked well or badly on all of them. But Ezreal mid was the most frustrating to play against.

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