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Kayn needs more clarity prior to transformation.

ZaColombian··49 votes·2,472 views
Crystian Amaya on Twitter

Hey guys quick thing about kayn, There currently is no indicator showing which kayn you're building towards. When you’re playing Kayn you just got to assume which one you’re going to transform first based on who you think you attacked the most. There have been times i go against range champions like Syndra but I would still end up getting Rhaast transformation first do to me fighting with the melee jungler when he ganks, and apparently not getting enough ranged essence in the first place. I could manage my skirmishes more accordingly if there was an indicator showing me which essence i'm gathering . Its very hard to manage and needs more clarity. When kayn's bar is filling up it doesn't do much but stay one color. I have a slight adjustment that could help that indicator be more clear.

Here is my solution on clarity: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLRYESgWAAEE1I8.jpg:large

Original thread i found on this topic; https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N0k9BxzA-suggestion-for-improving-clarity-on-kayns-meter-from-a-pbe-player

34 Comments

SzGamer2278 votes

Kayn has one bar for Kayn and one bar for Rhaast, and whichever bar you fill first determines your transformation.

This is why people believe that whichever type of champion you hit last determines your transformation... you can't fill your blue bar by attacking melee champions (and vise versa), so ultimately whichever type of champion you were attacking when you unlocked transformation will correlate with the transformation you unlock.

Problem with in-game clarity is because both meters are displayed with the same white bar. They took two meters of information, put them on top of eachother, and made them the same color, which has caused a lot of misconceptions about how it works.

Anyways, the indicator you propose would be perfect without the inner orb that fills. Transformation would trigger when one of the side meters fills to reflect how the transformation works in-game.

Doozku1 votes

Yeah, I was the one that made this a while ago when Kayn was on pbe and this guy reposted it which I don't have a problem with.

That said, now that we actually know how the bar works, it'd be better if instead it were just two bars. Maybe keep the circle design but have them both move up to the center and the one that hits the center first is the transformation

It's just so unclear to players in game how Kayn's bar interaction actually works, which leads to a lot of confusion like "wtf my bar is 99% full why did this one orb do no progress?" when he had all red orbs and just got a blue orb, or "It only matters what champion you kill last" which is kind of true but technically not. Having a bar like this would go a long way to making his meter make more sense.

LordGeovanni1 votes

that is a really simple fix red bar for closer to rhast blue bar for closter to SA. just change the color

Pumping Iron5 votes

If u have 99% blue essence and 0% red essence and u start attacking just melee champions, u won't get your form until u have 100% red essence. Simple system.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

True, but it is kind of silly you don't know how full the bars are, right? You get more "bar" per hit the further the game progresses. That makes even guessing where your bars are near impossible. Lol.

Pumping Iron1 votes

Yea.. but when u play Kayn u will have a gameplan from champ select about which form do you want (and choose runes/masteries for it), which lane u should gank to get your form asap etc. Anyways would be nice to have 2 bars, one red and one blue.

Talon121 votes

you can have the bard literally filled fully in white from red and get ONE ORB of blue and still get blue evolve, they need to make the bar more accurate if this is the case, because no matter what its always last champ hit for everyone i see on oce

Pumping Iron1 votes

Nope, u feel that because at 10-15 min into the game the essence you receive is doubled/tripled (dunno exactly). That means u need (let's say) 4 kills to get your form early (less 5-10 min itg) and just 1 kill or a big teamfight midgame (10-15 min) to get your form. So if u will hit until min 10 just ranged champs (and fill the bar 90%) and then (let's say) 12-15 min u will kill one melee champ you will get red form.

Try it, go in practice tool, pick a ranged champion (let's say tristana) for enemy team. Stay lvl 1-2 and get 90 red essence from dummies (yes u get essence from dummies and it's red) and then start hitting tristana and u will see the bar will be stucked.

Talon121 votes

whenever going kayn, it simply just does that tho, only red essence up to like you said 90%, and get just 1 blue orb, only 1 and the transform ends up being blue, as I said it is possible it could just be a bug in oce, as other people in oce experience the same thing where its not two separate bars but 1 that works based on last essence collected, its possible that the oce exclusive events have an underlying effect on kayns passive, even if the chances are slim

Flawless Fetus2 votes

Right. And then the game starts, and you end up having to camp bot. Or you keep on finding Lee in your jungle. You know which one you went to be, but you don't know which on you are going to be. The fact that you get more essence as the game progresses make it hard to accurately monitor this.

Talon124 votes

LoL

That literally doesn't matter, kayn's form isnt decided on who he hits more, its decided on who he hits last. You could not touch any melee champs, only ranged, then accidentally nick the enemy lee and you will get rhaast

ZaColombian1 votes

Really? i'm going to try this out in a practice to confirm.

Talon121 votes

Needs to be a custom, practice only has one type of champs unless you can get elise jayce or nid or something

ZaColombian7 votes

i tried it out, i used the dummy to stack up till i had only one orb left and then went and killed a Lucian. He did not transform, turns out range essence has to out weigh the melee essence.

ZaColombian1 votes

Same Vice versa

Talon122 votes

a dummy is not a fair result on kayn, it must be two actual champions, though it is possible this is an issue based in oce.

Just tested it again, 95% red essence and last 5% blue, got shadow assassin, same conditions as you, in practice mode with dummies and a lucian. It's based on the last form of essence received, in oce anyway.

If you need i can get a video(gif version) of someone else doing the test too.

Kaìju2 votes

Do it.

Talon121 votes

Waiting for the person to record the game data for it, but found a quote on the kayn mains reddit "Just try to make the last hit either melee or ranged depending on the form you want, that will be the form you get"

https://www.reddit.com/r/KaynMains/comments/6xsiq9/jungle_kayn_how_to_consistently_transform_early/

Kaìju1 votes

Why can't you record it? Better yet I own him why am I not proving it.

50000000000000006 votes

The essence weighs more as the game goes on. It may feel like you're getting cheated out if you've been mostly farming melee orbs with some ranged orbs here and there, but the charge up is separate. (aka this guy doesn't know what they're talking about)

LordGeovanni1 votes

last i checked dummies are of teemo

RavenMagus2 votes

This is a misconception based on both the lack of clarity and the mechanics behind the meter.

There is in fact two meters, and you must fill one completely. That means that you will always transform into whatever you attack last, because obviously you'll get a transformation as soon as you fill a meter, and the two sides fill up separately - it's not just one bar like the game presents.

However there is another factor at play. The amount that each orb fills rises dramatically over the course of the game. Poking someone a bunch of times at 3 minutes into lane will give you very little progress compared to just a few hits on a champion at 10 minutes. At 12-15 minutes killing someone on your own is pretty much enough to fill the bar from 0 to 100.

Parallelity4 votes

{quoted}

LoL

That literally doesn't matter, kayn's form isnt decided on who he hits more, its decided on who he hits last. You could not touch any melee champs, only ranged, then accidentally nick the enemy lee and you will get rhaast

Post this on the r/kaynmains reddit you'll get crucified as that is not how it works. The current passive has 2 bars but only shows the one that has the most souls. The reason it seems like it's the last his is because 14 minutes in you get a ridiculous amount of souls.

Steelflame4 votes

I just wish they would change it so that he'd have a fixed time lockout for both transformations, and collecting orbs would reduce the time to that transform. Lets say 18 minutes is the "worst case scenario" for the timer. You can collect orbs and it speeds up the timer of that form, so if you were playing for Rhaast, and fought an enemy melee, you'd be able to actively see exactly how much impact fighting them had, and see the large drop in the time till transform.

This would fix 4 major problems with Kayn's transformations.

  1. The classic "I was at 99% melee but killed a ranged champion from ~15% bar fill at 15 minutes in and it was enough to completely fill my ranged bar to unlock SA."
  2. The "2v2 brawl where the unlock is literally a coinflip."
  3. The "I'm at 99% and can't get to a target, and now won't be able to transform for 2-3 minutes until I can land a single hit on a champion of the prefered type, or otherwise find another target, accept the WRONG one, and wait out that 4 minute timer instead."
  4. The "There is a fight that if I ignore it is a lost game for the team, but if I fight it will cost me being stuck in base Kayn form for an extra 4 minutes while I wait out the transformation timer, costing us 4 entire minutes of pressure and costing us the game anyway."

All 4 of these are exceptionally irritating issues on Kayn, and make his transformation utter bullshit at times.

MontethePython1 votes

{quoted}

LoL

That literally doesn't matter, kayn's form isnt decided on who he hits more, its decided on who he hits last. You could not touch any melee champs, only ranged, then accidentally nick the enemy lee and you will get rhaast

This guy isn't entirely wrong, people including myself have done some experiments with this and while any essence you get before isn't completely unused it is far more decisive as to who you fight/kill or gank around the 9-12 minute mark, i've seen games as kayn as well where i've been ganking or fighting a melee match-up early only to rotate bot around 11 minutes and kill the enemy adc thus getting blue form, it's not simply who he hits last, but once you get around 10 minutes who he hits around then certainly seems to be most impactful, atleast more than any early trades and ganks. Try it out.

Doozku1 votes

In case you guys were wondering, I made this originally and the op reposted which I don't have a problem with. (original post https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N0k9BxzA-suggestion-for-improving-clarity-on-kayns-meter-from-a-pbe-player?comment=0005)

Anyways I made this when Kayn was on PBE and I assumed that the bars both filled up in the same meter. But in reality, that's for from the truth. What's actually happening here is that two separate bars for both essences are filling up at the same time and only the biggest bar gets shown in the hud. Right now, the hud bar is extremely unclear and generally unhelpful for Kayn as a whole, and really warrants some retooling. That said, this design is kind of outdated since it is based off of false information.

Rather, what I'd suggest is just to have to two bars on both sides like it is here, and once one one of the bars hits the middle, the transformation picks which bar was filled up the most and dumps all of your progress on the other bar. If Riot were too lazy to implement this, the easy way out would just be to make the bar red or blue corresponding to which form has the most orbs so that you can tell which side is winning.

Hèntaî 1 votes

What Ive learned is that the last champ type you hit is what determines your form. Ie: Hitting an adc or ranged last even though you've been pounding on melees will get you assassin and vice versa

Tristanl0l2 votes

Be careful saying this stuff, I said that exact sentence to Kayn’s creator on Twitter and he immediately blocked me with no response

Hèntaî 1 votes

Thats childish. I mean you can go into game and see that Im not really wrong, the last type you hit is what you get. Can go into a game right now and it'll be just that.

CubedJustice2 votes

You're not wrong, but that's a correlation not a causation. Kayn has two bars, one for each transformation. If you hit a melee champion, and you transform, you've filled up your bar for melee. You could hit a ranged champion constantly but until you fill up a bar you won't transform.

Jet Sett1 votes

So does the other bar fill to a certain degree when the other is leveled? Because I see no reason for the form to go Rhaast after one good melee fight after several ranged skirmishes.

Steelflame1 votes

Orbs become worth more as the game goes on, maxing out on said value at 13 minutes in. A single fight later on can easily be enough to fill the bar completely from empty.

Bârd2 votes

Incorrect.

The value of souls collected increases with game time.

It's not "last soul" that matters, you still have to fill the meter.

Thing is that a single duel 15 minutes in can be enough to fill the bar.

Pale Pirate1 votes

Yes please. Even wiki-lol is complaining about it.

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