Can Riot just stop adding and then removing game modes??

Meat Feast·Sep 27, 2016·2 votes·1,385 views

I came home for lunch today with the thought of "oh maybe ill play an AR URF, while my sh*t cooks", only to log in and see that Rito has removed the game mode. Like wtf, what other company does this? Why do they constantly add and remove game modes, only to bring them back 6 months later? If I feel like playing AR URF, then let me do it!

I could care less whether anyone else likes the game mode or not, the point is that they're frustrating players, which just seems like bad business. I end up playing less league because of it. Anyone in the same boat?

38 Comments

SlythionSep 27, 20166 votes

it's part of the rotating game modes queue they implemented a few months ago

we get a gamemode every weekend (friday-monday i believe), it's not that uncommon of a business practice and it's definitely entertaining while ensuring game modes don't grow stale

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

it wasn't stale, it was refreshing. taking away a refreshing game mode seems counter intuitive because I'm just going to go play another game instead

SlythionSep 27, 20167 votes

you misread my friend,

I said that rotating the gamemodes ensure that they don't grow stale. If they were around for a significant time, they surely would as actual metas developed and they would start being taken more seriously by the community which takes away from the whole "goof around" aspect

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

it was refreshing because norms is growing stale. They keep ARAM around for this reason, so why not add to the list and keep AR URF. There wouldn't be a meta for AR URF, just as theres no meta for ARAM, because you don't get to choose. That's what makes AR URF better than URF

SlythionSep 27, 20162 votes

Let's keep this exact same conversation limited to the other chain of comments :3

Joseph GladstoneSep 27, 20163 votes

its the rotating game mode queue

Dabrick01Sep 27, 20163 votes

AR URF is part of the RGM cue. Why are you complaining? I get that you want that gamemode all the time but it is better for it to be a RGM.

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

why does it have to be rotating? I can't think of a good reason

SlythionSep 27, 20163 votes

other game modes divide the league community, resulting in longer queue times and worse match making for all game modes
random gamemodes would get boring/stale after awhile and lose their charm to the general population, resulting in less support yet they would still have a small (yet large enough to be an issue) fanbase to revert any changes to keep a gamemode around
they'd develope metas and eventually demand some sort of balancing which would be impossible for Riot to provide (just look at dominion)
it takes up too much server space to be even close to cost efficient for Riot

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

Regarding your comments:

*I'm not sure this applies, because people like me will not end up playing the normal game mode when we feel like playing an AR URF. Also you could say the same thing for ARAM, yet that is kept around.

*ARAM doesn't get stale, why would AR URF. I'm curious as to how small this community is that supports having AR URF just around normally.

*AR URF can't have a meta that players can exploit in the same way that ARAM doesn't have an exploitable meta.

*what's the difference between server space for ARAM, and server space for AR URF? If I'm not playing one, I'm playing the other. And league is a free game no matter what game mode you play, there's nothing cost efficient about it.

SlythionSep 27, 20162 votes

*If you don't play normals when AR URF is out, that is exactly what I mean by splitting the community. Also, Aram exists by itself for a reason. If you just look at what happened to Dominion, you can see that multiple sub-gamemodes can't efficiently exist. Not to mention that it's pretty obvious that having 3 gamemodes (ranked, norms, aram) doesn't divide the community as much as having 4 total gamemodes (ranked, norms, aram, and now arurf)

*Aram does grow stale and has always been the least popular game mode of the current 3 permanent ones. It only doesn't seem stale to you because you have nothing to compare it to.

*AR URF can have a meta, and we got a glimpse of it's effects in just the weekend it was around when ARAM/ARURF specific accounts dominated. Aram has always had an exploitable meta with ARAM accounts, not sure what you're talkin about there

*Once again, you can't have both Aram and Arurf. We're talking about having a new queue, a greater stress on matchmaking, a new sub-community for Riot to entertain, etc. "If I'm not playing one, I'm playing the other" which is another way to say "If I'm playing one, I'm not playing the other"...aka splitting the community. And you misunderstand the term "cost efficient". Riot has bills to pay to keep their servers/website/gamemodes running. They have employees to pay, advertisements to create, tournaments to run, etc etc. It may be a "free game" but you can still pay money for ig options, and ARURF would simply not provide more revenue than it takes to keep it running. So ya, permanent ARURF would be cost ineffecient for RIOT (which would result in a greater strain on maintaining the main game's functions)

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

More comments, because I disagree with some of yours:

My point was that I didn't feel like playing norms to begin with, I only felt like playing AR URF. Since it's not there, I'm typing this instead of playing a norms, because I didn't feel like playing a norms. So the community isn't split, I'm just removing myself from it. If I'm not the only one who feels this way, then other people may leave as well. Dominion is a bad example, because most people believe that dominion was 'never' a fun game mode to begin with in general. Why did ARAM win out over Dominion? Because the random aspect of it is entertaining, similar to AR URF. League has a huge community, large enough to handle four game modes. Dominion failed because it was a bad concept.
Of course ARAM goes stale after a while, as any game mode does, even norms. The point is that we have it around for when norms does grow stale. Riot should keep AR URF around for the same reason.
Most people that I've met (quite a few) have never created "ARAM specific accounts", they just have their main account, and maybe a smurf just for sh*ts and giggles. Plus if ARAM can be exploited, then why has the ARAM game mode survived so long. I believe it's because, for the most part, it is mostly random.
There's no special sub-community for Riot to entertain for ARAM, so no reason to believe they would have to entertain AR URF. the matchmaking, and queue durations 'may' be impacted, but at least people are getting to play what they want to play. Also again, it's not splitting the community, it's adding to it. Riot has enough server space to handle a growing community of players, so this is already a sunk cost, where the server is allocated shouldn't matter. The other expenses you mentioned are expenses that they will incur whether AR URF is around or not, so that doesn't matter. If you want to talk revenue, then I would argue that they will take in less revenue over time due to decreasing user interest due to not having these 'fun' extra game modes on demand. People like me will simply eventually stop playing the game in general, and any potential income is then lost.

BladeSteelSep 27, 20165 votes

because last time riot left urf or any gamemode like that up for a week everyone had stopped playing it by the time the week was over (or a majority of people). Thus they only put it out for the weekend and keep rotating to keep it fresh.

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

bold statement to say that everyone was over it. My friends and I still loved having it as a way to take a breather from ranked and norms, similar to how we treat ARAM

SlythionSep 27, 20162 votes

you just used you're own personal opinion/experience to counter his statement about a given fact that applied to the league community as a whole

if you want to keep using aram as an example, ill just throw the word "Dominion" out there as a reminder that multiple sub-game modes can't really exist

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

I'm using my own personal experience to illustrate that I'm probably not the only one who feels this way. I'm also pointing out that his statement is clearly not a fact, and is likely his personal opinion. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean that the whole league community was over playing AR URF.

ARAM is relevant, because it incorporates the random part of the game mode. AR URF is random and therefore avoids many of the pitfalls most people associate with normal URF

SlythionSep 27, 20163 votes

because last time riot left urf or any gamemode like that up for a week the majority of people had stopped playing it by the time the week was over

that wasn't some made up statement to support his point, there was actual evidence behind it through observation and data provided from when the event actually took place

I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are not part of the majority mentioned in his comment. You are arguing a personal opinion while we are arguing with evidence from history, you are simply part of the minority that wants to play URF/ARURF as a permanent gamemode, most other people understand that the support from the league community just isn't there and that the gamemode would most likely die out (as it did when they kept it open for a week).

The same exact thing happened with Dominion.

So ya, you as an individual with a personal opinion would love to play ARURF as a permanent game mode but there just simply isn't enough of people that share your preference to make it work.

FrostFlame HellDec 3, 20171 votes

DOTA 2 has surpassed League in this sense, why can't League do it compared to DOTA?

SlythionDec 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=frostflame hell,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xAsJwA6,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-03T13:20:10.364+0000)

DOTA 2 has surpassed League in this sense, why can't League do it compared to DOTA?

god damn you dug this post from the grave dude. This is over a year old lol

BladeSteelSep 27, 20161 votes

It is a fact. Look it up bud.

dnsupSep 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

because last time riot left urf or any gamemode like that up for a week everyone had stopped playing it by the time the week was over (or a majority of people).

No, they hadn't.

BladeSteelSep 27, 20163 votes

Yeah...sure. Considering all data is against you....sorry bud.

SukishooSep 28, 20163 votes

Ignore him, just trolls at everything.

Dark NephthysSep 27, 20162 votes

I'm just wondering on what time on Late Monday's (Early Tuesday) that the game modes get removed? I played one at 3 AM EST on Monday, though if I was to guess, it'll probably be at like 6 AM (server time) or something.

dnsupSep 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meat Feast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xAsJwA6,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-27T18:05:20.792+0000)

I came home for lunch today with the thought of "oh maybe ill play an AR URF, while my sh*t cooks", only to log in and see that Rito has removed the game mode. Like wtf, what other company does this? Why do they constantly add and remove game modes, only to bring them back 6 months later? If I feel like playing AR URF, then let me do it!

I could care less whether anyone else likes the game mode or not, the point is that they're frustrating players, which just seems like bad business. I end up playing less league because of it. Anyone in the same boat?

There are plenty of players in the same boat. Of course the queue for ARURF remained below 20 seconds from its release time until its end time, so it was very popular. (I don't think I ever waited more than 15 seconds, actually).

The Boards, unfortunately, are full of people who don't play URF (or weren't playing URF when it was available--as evidenced by their being on the Boards instead :P). So yeah, your post is going to attract a lot of attention from salty players for whom LoL is not so much a game as it is a lifestyle. The same people who would rather play only the champs they know are OP, "because I want to win, and that's the best way to win." And for them, a game mode where the outcome is determined a bit less by skill and a bit more by chance is nothing short of heresy... especially if anyone enjoys it.

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

Glad to hear this, I knew I wasn't the only one feeling this way. I would agree that there is a serious sample bias going on in these threads. Hopefully it just attracts enough attention for a Riot employee to see and actually think about it.

The opinions of people who don't enjoy AR URF don't actually matter in this argument, they can keep playing their norms as if nothing ever changed.

Keep AR URF as a cool alternative to ARAM!

SukishooSep 27, 20161 votes

AR URF was part of the Rotating Game Mode Queue... they only last from Friday thru Monday. Of course it'd be gone on Tuesday.

The Sword SaintSep 27, 20161 votes

I should go dig up one of my old posts on this. Man this kind of thing is why I made essay threads in the first place, so I guess it's my fault I didn't make one on this topic back when it was talked about more.

Anyway, I'll just say a few things on the matter:

Before the rotating game mode queue was created, Riot experimented with several 'event' game modes like ascension and legend of the poro king and yes the original urf mode. They gathered the data and discovered that, even though they left the modes up for a week at a time, 90% of all players stopped playing those modes within the first three days of play. The data showed that people got engaged and excited about new modes for only a few days at most, and then the issues of the game modes being unbalanced, losing their exciting fresh appeal, metas setting in, etc. would quickly crop up and most players would be done with the mode... for a while. When those modes came back later on for another week people would again get hyped and play them for a few days, before once again 90% of them losing interest within a couple of days. This the idea of keeping these modes as permanent additions was clearly not viable, as they would require dedicated balancing and content teams for each mode to upkeep them just to try and force interest in modes that the community had already discarded.
However, that initial data showing that people would be just as interested for just as long ( a few days) if the modes left and came back was too interesting to ignore. Thus, they considered how to make the best use of this knowledge and the idea they came up with was the rotating game mode queue. By placing several such 'event modes' onto a weekly rotation for a few days on the weekends, those 90% of players who would get bored after a few days would be able to fully enjoy the alternate game modes just long enough to get their fill and the modes would leave for a while again before they overstayed their welcome.
Because modes would leave every week and come back months later, you only needed one team of developers to make changes and updates to whatever the next game mode is on the queue so that its fresh again when it comes up, instead of one team per each game mode in order to maintain them constantly.
Additionally, because the game modes could be designed with the knowledge that they won't be sticking around for more than a few days at a time, new ideas could be used in the game modes without concern for their long term balance state since they would not need to be maintained.
Rotating game modes are meant to be a fleeting and refreshing distraction from the core game. They are not the core game. Riot is not making an attempt to pander to or cater to a niche of players who would decide not to play league of any specific rotating game mode isn't permanent. If you aren't someone who wants to stick around to play the core game primarily, you just aren't who they are intending the mode for. You are of course welcome to stay and enjoy the modes, but it's pretty silly to think for a second that any thought of 'losing your potential revenue' by not keeping around 'the only mode you like' is even a consideration. It's only slightly less silly than people argue that they won't get banned for being toxic because 'riot wants my revenue'.

TLDR: Data came in that the vast majority of the community prefers rotating game mode over new permanent modes, the rotating nature of the modes allows for new designs of rules that would not be reasonable in longer term modes since they are inherently unbalanced, and rotating game mode makes alternate modes in general more of a sustainable thing we will have for a long time than gambling a bunch of money, time, talent, and community interest on trying to keep around another permanent mode that will likely only be frequented by a small handful who don't even really consider themselves 'league players' but 'players of x game mode'.

Meat FeastSep 27, 20162 votes

No balancing needed, leave as is, with a random generator, same as ARAM. ARAM teams can be unbalanced but it doesn't stop everyone from playing it.
I'm not the only one who still enjoys playing AR URF, and it's way better than normal URF. Why does it cost anyone anything to leave a game mode as it is. Don't play it if you lose interest, but leave it around for people who are interested, and there's plenty.
If Riot wants to try a new idea in AR URF, I'm down to try it. In fact they can keep the rotating game mode practice that they have, but I believe that AR URF should be a permanent game mode. Again, no one should care if there's an extra game mode if all they want to do is play norms/ranked.
I play the core game, but why are you (or riot) trying to decide what the core game is? The game is different things to different people. If people like me want to take a break from norms and play AR URF, then riot should 'pander' to this request. Frankly, it's not asking very much from Riot at all. This won't affect the players that only want to play norms.

Also, I only mentioned revenue for Riot to address a statement in the preceding statement. The point is that, in general, it is a good business practice for a company to give their customers what they desire. I don't believe that AR URF will kill the 'core game', it simply adds to League experience.

If you prefer rotating game modes, fine. If Riot wants to try new things in these rotating game modes, fine. But I'm requesting adding another permanent game mode (AR URF) to compliment ARAM. Once again, if you don't want to play it, then don't, and continue your life in ranked trying to get to Challenger.

The Sword SaintSep 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meat Feast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xAsJwA6,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-09-27T22:26:03.558+0000)

No balancing needed, leave as is, with a random generator, same as ARAM. ARAM teams can be unbalanced but it doesn't stop everyone from playing it.

I'm not the only one who still enjoys playing AR URF, and it's way better than normal URF. Why does it cost anyone anything to leave a game mode as it is. Don't play it if you lose interest, but leave it around for people who are interested, and there's plenty.

If Riot wants to try a new idea in AR URF, I'm down to try it. In fact they can keep the rotating game mode practice that they have, but I believe that AR URF should be a permanent game mode. Again, no one should care if there's an extra game mode if all they want to do is play norms/ranked.

I play the core game, but why are you (or riot) trying to decide what the core game is? The game is different things to different people. If people like me want to take a break from norms and play AR URF, then riot should 'pander' to this request. Frankly, it's not asking very much from Riot at all. This won't affect the players that only want to play norms.

Also, I only mentioned revenue for Riot to address a statement in the preceding statement. The point is that, in general, it is a good business practice for a company to give their customers what they desire. I don't believe that AR URF will kill the 'core game', it simply adds to League experience.

If you prefer rotating game modes, fine. If Riot wants to try new things in these rotating game modes, fine. But I'm requesting adding another permanent game mode (AR URF) to compliment ARAM. Once again, if you don't want to play it, then don't, and continue your life in ranked trying to get to Challenger.

You don't understand so many things about game development, all you see it what you want and all you can think of are reasons why you think its owed to you.

It does, actually, have a significant cost to keep a game mode available even if you don't put any work towards balancing it. Many costs. One of those is that they have to test every new items and champion extensively on that extra map to make sure that it doesn't cause game breaking bugs and server crashes to use those champions or items in that side mode. It forces the technoledgy of the main mode to be delayed and made to work around whats going on in another mode. In the example of urf they can't release champions and items without being extra careful that having a massivly increased amount of spells and item actives than what is desired for normal play doesn't cause some weird errors. It's not so bad with maps like twisted treeline that are pretty much the same thing as summoners rift but on a smaller scale, but wierd ones like urf and ascension that cause the biggest issue here.

I'm speaking generally instead of about urf because urf is irrelevant. The issue is that rotating game modes work the way they do for very good reasons. It's very much not worth it to have more game modes that only a few people will play after a few days dragging down the development and testing time for the real game mode, and no your personal interest in urf doesnt make urf any more special than any other rotating game mode. Why would riot decide to dedicate the resources to keep this one around and not any of the others?

Whether or not I or you or anyone reeeaaally likes a particular rotating game mode or not is irrelevant. Keeping them around is not in the cards.

Meat FeastSep 28, 20161 votes

No one's entitled to anything, that is, nothing is owed to me. I'm merely suggesting that AR URF is a good idea to keep around full time. The core game will remain the same, most/all development would still remain on the core game.

I understand game development. These bugs/server crash issues that you are mentioning, are all issues that Riot will have to face when dealing with rotating game modes. Riot will go through this testing phase the next time that AR URF is rotated in, therefore, these costs are already planned to be incurred by Riot. Additionally, having new rotating game modes requires the time of programmers at Riot, but I don't see you complaining about that. Regardless of whether AR URF is rotating or full time, these costs are inevitable.

Again, your perceived dragging down of the development and testing time for the core game mode is already happening in the rotating game modes as they are created and tested. The reason why AR URF is worth keeping around is because I am not the only one who enjoys this game mode, URF in general has generated much more interest than the other game modes, making it relevant.

It's worth it for Riot to invest in other permanent game modes, as the core game mode can get stale from seeing the same 20 champions in each game. Riot has a history of being able to adapt to their customer's likes and dislikes. Therefore I'm suggesting this as a good addition to the permanent line up.

The Sword SaintSep 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meat Feast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4xAsJwA6,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-28T17:54:00.205+0000)

No one's entitled to anything, that is, nothing is owed to me. I'm merely suggesting that AR URF is a good idea to keep around full time. The core game will remain the same, most/all development would still remain on the core game.

I understand game development. These bugs/server crash issues that you are mentioning, are all issues that Riot will have to face when dealing with rotating game modes. Riot will go through this testing phase the next time that AR URF is rotated in, therefore, these costs are already planned to be incurred by Riot. Additionally, having new rotating game modes requires the time of programmers at Riot, but I don't see you complaining about that. Regardless of whether AR URF is rotating or full time, these costs are inevitable.

Again, your perceived dragging down of the development and testing time for the core game mode is already happening in the rotating game modes as they are created and tested. The reason why AR URF is worth keeping around is because I am not the only one who enjoys this game mode, URF in general has generated much more interest than the other game modes, making it relevant.

It's worth it for Riot to invest in other permanent game modes, as the core game mode can get stale from seeing the same 20 champions in each game. Riot has a history of being able to adapt to their customer's likes and dislikes. Therefore I'm suggesting this as a good addition to the permanent line up.

This has been covered by riot and by players many times. I even took more time than is reasonable for any random thread to explain some of it to you. That you immediately downplay or dismiss or misinterpret the points is unfortunate, but that's about all the time and interest I have in the matter.

On the off chance that I might get through to you with one last attempt: One team can service all the rotating game modes if they only have to do one at a time and for a short time each, but you'd need one team per game mode for each one that you add permenantly. If that would be at the very least one additional team to handle just arurf or whichever other mode that would be added permenantly unless you are suggesting that they stop doing a rotating game mode queue entirely and just do your beloved arurf instead.

dnsupSep 27, 20163 votes

Except that none of that applied to URF at all. Queue times for URF remained short in both 2014 and 2015, and has been consistently shorter than all the other RGMQ modes.

If you were present for the discussions in 2014, as you say you were, then you already know this.

The Sword SaintSep 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except that none of that applied to URF at all. Queue times for URF remained short in both 2014 and 2015, and has been consistently shorter than all the other RGMQ modes.

If you were present for the discussions in 2014, as you say you were, then you already know this.

You're wrong.

/end

Meat FeastSep 28, 20161 votes

Interest was still high in URF, and AR URF when they were still available. Riot took them down because they didn't want these game modes to impact interest in their core (e-sports) game mode.

ModAttysu The PoroSep 28, 20161 votes

It's rotating, there are always new gamemodes around, and URF comes around once or twice a month, as well as others. I think it's great to make sure gamemodes don't get stale, while still being able to play it more than once a year like it used to be.

Meat FeastSep 28, 20161 votes

a fair argument, but I think Riot should allow gamers to decided when a certain game mode becomes stale for them personally. ARAM can get stale over time if you play it enough, but it's nice to have every once in a while when you do feel like playing it as a break from norms. That stale point happens at different times for different gamers, so the flexibility in the access to the game mode would be nice.

ModAttysu The PoroSep 28, 20161 votes

ARAM exists because it was by far the most popular gamemode in customs, as well as being something they can make without having to worry about balance.

I can agree with the whole 'I want X gamemode permanent' (that's how I feel about Hexakill,) but it's just not feasible. Having several gamemodes separates the community. I'm pretty sure some regions don't even have dominion (when it was out at least,) and some gamemodes are limited to certain versions due to population differences. It's just not possible to have a bunch of gamemodes split the community up and make the tremendous queue times even longer.