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How to deal with bad supports? Can the ADC be effective without support?

DireXcon··2 votes·2,068 views

So, this is a post just to discharge myself from the rage of the last match where I had a Zyra "support" at early game she was takeing my last hits and just staying in the back playing passively without actualy doing nothing just takeing my farm and makeing me lose CS because of her plants put right in the middle of the wave, not only that, but she was last hitting with basic attacks too, at 20 minutes I'm like 50-60 cs and she's 40, I'm behind, and I have to farm my way back in the game.

She then decides to roam and leave me alone vs Morgana and Draven , I start roam for farm, I didn't knew what to do at that point because in team fights I was less effective than a scuttle crab, any way, back to Zyra , she was not building any support items at all, the vision on the map was 0, we had only our trinkets, it was a blind game, she dosn't want to help the team at getting kills, she wants to get the kills.

At late game, I took out 6 turrets and 4 of them all alone risking my life and 2 inhibitors.

Take a look at the game stats if you want to:

http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1124571289/215099821?tab=overview

Thanks for reading!

-KogMaw

PS: I don't know if I posted this in the right section, let me know if I didn't.

Edit: Btw, take a look at her item build and the masteries.

35 Comments

The5lacker2 votes

Report her for assisting the enemy team and move on. If a support is actively assisting the enemy team by stealing CS and abandoning you, there's not much you can do.

Very Hard Engage2 votes

the point of a support is to keep the adc alive, if you feel comfortable enough to 1v2, where you can soak up all exp and cs well, then its better to do so to prepare for the team fights, however it will be nearly impossible for you to score a kill, and ganks will become 2v2s rather than 3v2s.

if you have a bad support the best thing you can do is just let it go and prepare for a 4v5 where your opponent has a gold lead. let them feed, and wait for jungler support, just give up slack on the lane.

Trash MammaI2 votes

Fun facts: 1)Zyra's a mage in the bot lane. Like annie/vel'koz/lux etc. She's not a real support.

2)Supports are obligated to give you the cs. Yes, it's better to do so but she in no way HAS to give you the cs

3)A support that's roaming isn't bad unless they're doing nothing but trolling everyone intentionally in which you just report after the game and move on.

Answer to your title: Yes, they can, but the real question is will ADC's LEARN to be effective without a support? (btw the answer to that is no, they're too use to be baby'd)

Mat7itan1 votes

The end to this is why I'm glad I'm a mid main. When I play adc I can be effective solo because I have so much practice with it.

DireXcon1 votes

That dosn't mean anything, is still an 1 vs 2 and you need to play defensive and get zoned just because you are used to main mid dosn't give you the ability to 1 vs 2

Mat7itan1 votes

I couldn't tell you how many times I've had a 1v2 lane because the jungler camped... and I don't mean sat in a bush off to the side, but was actually in lane with the mid laner. So yeah the solo lane has given me plenty pf experience in 1v2s.

mvargus1 votes

Zyra can go midlane but her kit makes her a very viable support when played properly. She's actually a bit too weak to really do well midlane in the current meta, but properly played as a poke support she can set up her ADC to shine.

However, its clear the OP got a terrible support here. This Zyra player was not a support, but was using the ADC as a shield while they tried to farm up. I've run into more than a few Morganas and Annies that do the same thing. It does set the ADC back quite a bit in a hurry, but it sounds like the OP did what they could to come back.

Nyaboron1 votes

Fun facts: 1)Mages in the bot lane can be real supports, they're there to deny the other bot lane cs and xp by smothering them with poke and fight potential early, as long as they can't be engaged on.

2)Supports are obligated to give you the cs. It used to be common for supports like zyra to take a few creeps early to build up some early ap, but nowadays with all of the gold income methods they should never be taking creeps on purpose unless the AD is dead or you need to quickly push the wave to assist with dragon (another reason why zyra is amazing -early dragons-). She is CAPABLE of taking the CS, but denying your own adc is trolling and you aren't playing your position correctly if this is the case.

3)A roaming support is good in some cases, but against a morgana/draven it's leaving your adc to die. You usually should only roam if your adc is ahead in items, is a safe character, and/or if the enemy lane doesn't have a lot of burst/catch potential. Running a cait or ez who can escape or farm under turret is fine, but vs a draven (who snowballs) and a morgana (CC monster) is leaving most carries to die.

Answer to the title: You can be with certain champs, but you being effective won't necessarily win a 4v5. You don't really need an answer, you just needed to rant about a trolled game and I get that. We all get those sometimes you just have to deal with it sometimes.

bad arcade kitty2 votes

she was not building any support items at all, the vision on the map was 0, we had only our trinkets, it was a blind game

52 minute long game, you placed 8 wards with an unupgraded trinket, lol

my last game as mid ahri i placed 17 wards in 46 minutes spend that 250 gold at lvl 9+...

DireXcon1 votes

{quoted}

52 minute long game, you placed 8 wards with an unupgraded trinket, lol

my last game as mid ahri i placed 17 wards in 46 minutes spend that 250 gold at lvl 9+...

Well, I could have warded more but as KogMaw wich has a very weak "escape" I was too afraid to roam throught the enemy jungle because I knew they have it warded, I limited myself to split push and takeing towers quick while warding the spots from where they could come to get me.

bad arcade kitty1 votes

{quoted}

Well, I could have warded more but as KogMaw wich has a very weak "escape" I was too afraid to roam throught the enemy jungle because I knew they have it warded, I limited myself to split push and takeing towers quick while warding the spots from where they could come to get me.

if you are not a support and it's too risky for you to roam specifically to ward, you just drop a ward in a bush when you go somewhere

so you pushed a lot, if you actually warded all the bushes around to prevent them to suddenly overcome you, you would have used way more than 8 wards (considering at least 3-4 wards you should have used during the laning). upgraded trinket (just 250 gold) gives you 2 ward charges and longer lasting wards

it would decrease the number of your deaths too

Miku Lv992 votes

ADCs can only be effective without supports if the other team doesn't take advantage of it and keep you away from getting much. Once you get good opponents they can make it really hard to get any decent cs. And the support's role is not simply to keep the ADC alive. It's more of to get the ADC as much more money than the enemy ADC as possible. Meaning keeping your ADC alive while he/she farms is really the main thing. You can't just keep your ADC alive but stuck back by your turret missing tons of cs and say you did anything good.

DireXcon1 votes

I totally agree with that Sir!

Mimy1 votes

I've been told I rely a lot on my support by my mentor. I was told it was kind of a bad thing but I know I don't have the skill to 1v2 a botlane.

I main adc, alot of my friends do as well but they dont ADC if theres a random support.. thats where me and my friends are different.. I don't mind random supports..

Sure your Zyra probably wasn't playing the role of support. I have those kinds of supports too every now and then.. For me the best thing to do is just accept the fact.. sure it sucks, but you'll do better in the long run if you play their game with them instead of against them.. I like to call it "Assist Damage Carry" Your behind to where your not taking any kills but your getting fed off assists to help your team as a damage carry anyways.. DON'T LEAVE YOUR TEAM AND GO OFF ALONE and try to CS when its safe to. Don't overextend. Play it safe. Your now at a small disadvantage then if you were an normal ADC.

there were games where I went about 3/2/17 as an ADC

not saying this is the best thing to do when you get a rouge support, It's just something that works for me instead of trying to fight them and hindering us both....

that being said, if you choose to be "Assist damage carry" because your support decided to carry themselves not buying wards... Your now gonna have to ward a bit.. Buck up and be the better person, help your teas as much as you can..

You complained about vision and no wards..... It's honestly not that hard nor is it hindering to buy a ward or 2 if you think its needed.. I sometimes have to help my supports ward botlane, those things expire fast.. Upgrading that trinket of yours helps a lot.. I noticed the enemy draven upgraded his into something that benefits an ADC so he doesn't face check anywhere but the greater stealth totem is a lot better for getting more wards on the map. Sad fact is, not many in bronze upgrade. but it's 250 gold well spent..

Honestly, Im not a big fan of these types of supports... If I wanted to support I would of went support.. But you gotta do whats best for your team instead of thinking of youself.. I try not to belly ache too much about it... but I feel your pain.. T-T

Edit: Also, If you have a good support, like a sona, or something like they and they accidently take a kill, Don't get too mad, Supports sometimes can use a kill or 2 to help them out.. "Jumpstart" their builds... perhaps buy that early sight stone and a mana regen item.. That small loss in your gold may beter help them protect you in the long run.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well actually assists give a lot of gold if you get on assist sprees.. I think it was up to 60 or 70 extra gold per assist (assists have a normal value of 150 up to a max value of 250 gold)

And what I love about support Zyra is that she deals so much damage without any items or with just some cheap magic pen items Though she is really vulnerable if she get engaged on or something like that

And I remember games where as I support I just stand auto attacking the enemy as we are trying to kill them and somehow I get the kill with an auto attack... I am just like... how did I get the kill there?

Mimy1 votes

Auto attack Kill Secure too OP xD

Dark Nephthys1 votes

I also play support Zyra and I always feel bad when I use my plants to poke the enemy and the plants would steal/mess up cs from my adc. Although most of the times the position isn't really that bad to steal a lot of cs, but yea placing a plant in the middle of the lane (Unless you were planning to engage or really harassing the enemy adc) is bad. I've also seen a lot of supports that won't ever buy wards and just sit back and focus on themselves instead of helping the adc...

Btw as far as "Can the adc be effective without a support" That depends on the lane match up and what adc you are playing. When I play adc, I'm generally playing Varus and Miss Fortune (I love the amount of damage or utility they bring in a team fight) so while I can farm with their Q if I don't have my support (Or it's a bad support) but it would cost to much mana and forces me under tower and makes me lose lane pressure so I can't attempt to deny their adc farm.

Adc's might eventually get use to being able to 1v2, now that Bard is here and will slowly make people get use to trying a 1v2. In most cases, as long as the enemy support isn't a Leona, Thresh, Morgana, or Blitz then you will still easily be able to just walk up and farm with no problem in a 1v2. You would just have to step back to your tower if you feel that they're about to jump on you...but then again...those supports I listed are basically the very common support picks...

Champion Skin1 votes

Then again is the support able to manage without their ADC? Well I guess that depends a lot on the support

Mage/poke supports would probably manage fine as they just do their thing and poke the enemy and usually bring decent enough damage to manage...

While utility supports like Janna... would probably struggle and feel rather useless without anyone to really support or provide utility for with the ADC being useless...

And engage/all in supports like Leona... would probably either do nothing or end up dying a lot

AnOstrichWithPMS1 votes

this is how I play zyra :D , I always rush pen and say screw sightstone, vision barely helps in the early game when the reksai Es from inside his jungle by the enemy turret onto you, or bard portal brings the jungler to you from back there , or the lee/nidalee jungles (zed ahri leblanc mids) are so mobile the moment u see them with the ward its too late anyway because you are el turtle zyra, or regular lane ganks from behind the turret with vi jump ult,or TF mid ults to come stun card u id rather just get more damage to win lane instead because the amount of things that make warding early game useless are very great , and very popular ....

I try hard not to steal CS with plants but cmon, im not gonna cut half my harass damage (pretty sure plants do the most of it) just because I might steal a little CS

blasting wand instead of sightstone early and u can 100-0 people at level 6

zyra stays in the back because she is squishy

also sometimes roaming is the best solution because if nothing good is happening in the bot lane might as well go and get your mid fed the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

I get a sightstone eventually, just not first thing

I also cs with autos If the adc is dead, one time my adc kept pretending to be Leroy Jenkins so much that I outfarmed him and ended up carrying the game

if your being a retard in the bot lane, im not gonna depend on you to win

DireXcon2 votes

That's so wrong, vision is one of the most important things for not dieing! especialy in laneing phase when you can get ganked randomly without even noticeing it! The support job is to make sure his adc stays alive and gets fed, how can I as an ADC farm good when I know I have no vision over the map and I can get ganked at any moment?

Most ADC's don't have CC, they can't hold someone in place like a player said "The ADC is the gun, the support is the hand holding it"

Geez, stop playing support Zyra.

AnOstrichWithPMS1 votes

{quoted}

That's so wrong, vision is one of the most important things for not dieing! especialy in laneing phase when you can get ganked randomly without even noticeing it! The support job is to make sure his adc stays alive and gets fed, how can I as an ADC farm good when I know I have no vision over the map and I can get ganked at any moment?

Most ADC's don't have CC, they can't hold someone in place like a player said "The ADC is the gun, the support is the hand holding it"

Geez, stop playing support Zyra.

if i need vision THAT badly early game, i have trinket, and so does the adc, it covers the 2 most dangerous entrances and if 1 upgrades your set i have yet to see vision be helpful early game in the mobility meta, its like oh look!!! now we can see the lee sin before he kills the adc!!! WOOO

bad arcade kitty1 votes

{quoted}

if i need vision THAT badly early game, i have trinket, and so does the adc, it covers the 2 most dangerous entrances and if 1 upgrades your set i have yet to see vision be helpful early game in the mobility meta, its like oh look!!! now we can see the lee sin before he kills the adc!!! WOOO

well, it's silly except warding the river bush or tribush you preferably should ward dragon and also bot lane bushes, especially when they have something like blitz well, at least i hope you use your seeds as semi-wards

AnOstrichWithPMS1 votes

{quoted}

well, it's silly except warding the river bush or tribush you preferably should ward dragon and also bot lane bushes, especially when they have something like blitz well, at least i hope you use your seeds as semi-wards

2 trinkets, 1 for river 1 for tribush

bush in lane you can blindly WQ and get free harass on them then they flee (plants op)

if you get ganked anyway the wards were probably not going to help you regardless , and if the jungler sneaks dragon alone he deserves it lol

DireXcon1 votes

{quoted}

if i need vision THAT badly early game, i have trinket, and so does the adc, it covers the 2 most dangerous entrances and if 1 upgrades your set i have yet to see vision be helpful early game in the mobility meta, its like oh look!!! now we can see the lee sin before he kills the adc!!! WOOO

Morgana was useing the bushes on bot lane a lot so I had no choice but to ward them

gr8job1 votes

Support Zyra's pretty damn good. Don't pin your negative experiences on an entire champion and the support mains who still love her.

DireXcon1 votes

{quoted}

Support Zyra's pretty damn good. Don't pin your negative experiences on an entire champion and the support mains who still love her.

I'm not saying Zyra as a champ is bad for supporting, I'm saying that the player was not playing her in the right was at all.

Sinister Snail3 votes

{quoted}

this is how I play zyra :D , I always rush pen and say screw sightstone, vision barely helps in the early game when the reksai Es from inside his jungle by the enemy turret onto you, or bard portal brings the jungler to you from back there , or the lee/nidalee jungles (zed ahri leblanc mids) are so mobile the moment u see them with the ward its too late anyway because you are el turtle zyra, or regular lane ganks from behind the turret with vi jump ult,or TF mid ults to come stun card u id rather just get more damage to win lane instead because the amount of things that make warding early game useless are very great , and very popular ....

I try hard not to steal CS with plants but cmon, im not gonna cut half my harass damage (pretty sure plants do the most of it) just because I might steal a little CS

blasting wand instead of sightstone early and u can 100-0 people at level 6

zyra stays in the back because she is squishy

also sometimes roaming is the best solution because if nothing good is happening in the bot lane might as well go and get your mid fed the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

I get a sightstone eventually, just not first thing

I also cs with autos If the adc is dead, one time my adc kept pretending to be Leroy Jenkins so much that I outfarmed him and ended up carrying the game

if your being a retard in the bot lane, im not gonna depend on you to win

Wouldn't it be the funniest thing if turned out, this was the guy OP was stuck with?

AnOstrichWithPMS2 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't it be the funniest thing if turned out, this was the guy OP was stuck with?

yea

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Nah, the Zyra was just an asshole. She should be reported hard and then banned for these kind of actions.

And if you're really serious asking if you can 1v2 as ADC on bot lane, let me just tell you this....:

If you lose lane, DO NOT BLAME YOUR JUNGLER FOR YOUR LOSS

DireXcon1 votes

{quoted}

Nah, the Zyra was just an asshole. She should be reported hard and then banned for these kind of actions.

And if you're really serious asking if you can 1v2 as ADC on bot lane, let me just tell you this....:

If you lose lane, DO NOT BLAME YOUR JUNGLER FOR YOUR LOSS

Well I agree, Diana tryed to help me but still I was too behind.

IcyPepper1 votes

8 wards in 52 minutes. Like, uh, you warded more than Zyra, but still.

Even if you're the adc, you need to buy wards as well as use that trinket effectively. You had a bad support that game, but you can definitely up your adc game as well. Supports are supposed to roam a bit more than the adc mid-game, so work on that warding game.

DireXcon1 votes

{quoted}

8 wards in 52 minutes. Like, uh, you warded more than Zyra, but still.

Even if you're the adc, you need to buy wards as well as use that trinket effectively. You had a bad support that game, but you can definitely up your adc game as well. Supports are supposed to roam a bit more than the adc mid-game, so work on that warding game.

As I sayd:

Well, I could have warded more but as KogMaw wich has a very weak "escape" I was too afraid to roam throught the enemy jungle because I knew they have it warded, I limited myself to split push and takeing towers quick while warding the spots from where they could come to get me.

ForgiveColour1 votes

funny how you got hard carried and you think you did something because you took out 2 inhib at the end

DireXcon1 votes

I took 4 towers alone: The outer and inner bot tower, the inner and the inhib tower of top

Yea, we got carryed hard because of Pantheon getting fed by Riven and our Diana haveing a power spike, but what could I do? My dps was too low to assit in team fights and I had the lower farm at 20 minutes into the game.

We won, but that's not the point of the post, the point is the support not doing his job and putting the ADC behind makeing a bad experience.

Sinister Snail1 votes

I think you're gonna have a tough time convincing people that the support doesn't have to buy wards.

Vision is ALWAYS needed, at every point of the game (where exactly it's needed changes), and one of the support's biggest jobs is to provide it. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but you'll need some solid reasoning to back up claiming otherwise.

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