What makes an ADC different from an assassin? [Long]

i cant move wtf··5 votes·564 views

Let me preface this by saying I like how League is currently and I don't want to change any of the champions as they exist right now. These are just my own thoughts on how the various champion classes are balanced against each other and other ways it can be balanced as new champions are added.

Let's start with how Riot defines the assassin and marksmen classes:

Assassins - Champions able to get in to a protected or vulnerable target, do large amounts of damage in a short window to kill them, then able to get out.

Marksmen - Champions with limited mobility but superior range and damage scalings, allowing them to do the highest overall damage in extended fights.

From these definitions we have a clear distinction: Assassins have short windows of bursts of power they need to play around, and marksmen have long windows of sustained power. Okay, that seems reasonable. But to what extent is this realized? Does the actual gameplay conform to these definitions?

How do Fizz, Zed or Talon match their assassin definition? Well, their kits have more mobility in them and their damage is on their abilities mostly. So in practice they can make more picks using their mobility and their damage is gated by their cooldowns and mana/energy. The "short window" part is fulfilled as well as the get-in/get-out part. That more or less fits the definition of an assassin.

What about marksmen like Cait, Draven or Jhin? Well they're ranged for one and have low mobility since most of their spells are damage focused. They also have the highest burst and sustained damage in the game after 1-3 items due to their superior scalings. Okay. Long range? Check. Low mobility? Check. Sustained damage? Check. Highest burst? Hmm..

But I thought assassins should have the edge in short windows?

Wait, how can you have superior sustained damage but not also the best burst damage? ..

^^ This is the question I think needs to be asked whenever a marksman is designed. Jhin in a way fulfills this since his attack speed is gated. He has great damage but it's inherently spread out over time through this attack speed limitation, hurting his burst but not affecting his overall dps.

There's actually multiple ways to achieve this trait of lower burst but higher sustained dps. Another that comes to mind is a champion that utilizes accuracy as a stat. Meaning if they have 70% accuracy but 50% better damage overall (meaning 120% effective damage), they would be doing large amounts of sustained damage over the course of many auto attacks but be quite unreliable in duels vs. assassins and fighters who's damage is guaranteed and consistent. The crit mechanic already does this to a lesser extent, this would just be a further expression of it.

Another way to further differentiate the two classes, going with the theme that assassins tend to be melee, is to nerf a marksman's damage at shorter ranges. There's many ways you could do this. As inspired from another member on these boards, you could have a marksman with a long rifle that can't shoot when in melee range but instead starts hitting enemies with the butt of the gun with a slow attack animation. Or you could have a champion that can't attack at short range at all but has small movement/displacement spells that allow them to increase the range when needed.

Overall though I think League strikes a nice balance. These are just ideas to serve as inspiration for future champions to more fully embody their roles and make each class more defined, varied and interesting to play as an against. Thanks for reading!

19 Comments

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

For some reason, most assassins have fairly short cooldowns on their main damage abilities. Take Zed - a very low cooldown Q and E. Talon's got a pretty low CD Q. Kata's got a medium CD Q, Akali's got a low CD Q, E, and passive, Rengar has a low CD Q, Kha has a low CD Q, Eve's got a low CD Q, Ekko has a medium CD abilities and passive (5~6 seconds).

This makes assassin DPS higher than it should be at times, combined with half of them being AD means Zed, Talon, Rengar, and Kha have all got VERY high sustained damage for burst oriented champions.

i cant move wtf1 votes

I actually think assassins are one class that delivers the most on what their class is supposed to be. They do a fair bit of sustained damage as you point out but they also tend to be melee, putting themselves in danger to do so. Since laning is so important in this game, a true assassin that has long cooldowns and really high single target burst only would fall behind I feel from lack of waveclear. I still think it would be interesting to see how a champion like that would fair. Maybe it would be an interesting niche pick?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=426lhklQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-12T03:06:53.197+0000)

I actually think assassins are one class that delivers the most on what their class is supposed to be. They do a fair bit of sustained damage as you point out but they also tend to be melee, putting themselves in danger to do so. Since laning is so important in this game, a true assassin that has long cooldowns and really high single target burst only would fall behind I feel from lack of waveclear. I still think it would be interesting to see how a champion like that would fair. Maybe it would be an interesting niche pick?

Well, really good waveclear isn't a bad thing to put on an assassin, so perhaps letting them oneshot the wave post lvl 6 wouldn't be too bad (it would be risky and put them in danger, but not too much). Another option is to make them ranged, and hopefully not make them as problematic as LB (although that could probably be done by keeping their mobility on the low side for an assassin, and making sure they don't have hard cc)

i cant move wtf1 votes

Yeah, I'm all for an assassins having waveclear and while I think assassins might be a bit weak at the moment, I think the class overall does what they're designed to do.

Shablagoo3 votes

Your comparing 4 sec cd's( maxed rank with cd items) to 1.3 attack speed auto's. You ultimately have to wait a few seconds to deal this dmg ppl can run flash, which allows them to use their mobility yes but compare to adc, they deal consistent burst honestly, without any cd( except for jihn) thats the difference.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Your comparing 4 sec cd's( maxed rank with cd items) to 1.3 attack speed auto's. You ultimately have to wait a few seconds to deal this dmg ppl can run flash, which allows them to use their mobility yes but compare to adc, they deal consistent burst honestly, without any cd( except for jihn) thats the difference.

Yeah, but midgame, when ADCs are weak, the 4 second Cds just do so much more damage than the 1.3 attack speed autos. Also it sucks getting Dpsed as a tank of bruiser. I once lost fucking Irelia duel to Rengar. I misplayed a little, but Irelia should win that via statcheck (I was not outplayed, for clarity. Just misplayed a little). However, Rengars low cd Q let him keep up, even as a squishy, bursty assassin.

Shablagoo1 votes

Yes and thats fair considering that you are not dealing significant dmg for 4 seconds compared to dps which can burst which is crit. Also adc's no longer have a bad midgame the lower of the cost actually gave them a better one which is why adc are deal and able to be more significant faster into the game. Its becoming a problem because the they essentially snowball like assassin now.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Yes and thats fair considering that you are not dealing significant dmg for 4 seconds compared to dps which can burst which is crit. Also adc's no longer have a bad midgame the lower of the cost actually gave them a better one which is why adc are deal and able to be more significant faster into the game. Its becoming a problem because the they essentially snowball like assassin now.

Ad assassina would like to disagree, 390 AD autos with Lethality do hurt quite a bit. It sucks dying to an assassin as a tank when they bruteforce you to death

Shablagoo1 votes

Cmon man by the time assassins have 390 ad( rly?) most tanks have well over 300 armor with almost no attack speed. Yes assassin have great burst no one is debating that but they have a delay to their burst not only with cd but inherent in their kit. Adc have no delay to their dmg they have the same amount of ad ALONG with crit and at most 1.3-1.5 attack speed. The problem he is talking about with this post is the fact adc's have burst along with dps, you can't compare 4 sec cd burst to dmg per second along with burst. No assassin goes bruteforce against tanks if he is he is wasting his time because if he doesnt burst his target has fast as possible he is wasting his time.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Cmon man by the time assassins have 390 ad( rly?) most tanks have well over 300 armor with almost no attack speed. Yes assassin have great burst no one is debating that but they have a delay to their burst not only with cd but inherent in their kit. Adc have no delay to their dmg they have the same amount of ad ALONG with crit and at most 1.3-1.5 attack speed. The problem he is talking about with this post is the fact adc's have burst along with dps, you can't compare 4 sec cd burst to dmg per second along with burst. No assassin goes bruteforce against tanks if he is he is wasting his time because if he doesnt burst his target has fast as possible he is wasting his time.

Maybe he's wasting time, but often he still gets the kill. It's dumb how assassins have the burst to oneshot squishes and also the DPS to fight bruisers and tanks.

Shablagoo1 votes

They dont have the dps to fight tanks and bruisers though, i dont get which assassin does, most fighters beat assassins, and most assassins dont even go for tanks because they could actually kill them. You seem to forgot most assassins are as squishy as adc's they just have more mobility they are still squishy.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

They dont have the dps to fight tanks and bruisers though, i dont get which assassin does, most fighters beat assassins, and most assassins dont even go for tanks because they could actually kill them. You seem to forgot most assassins are as squishy as adc's they just have more mobility they are still squishy.

Khazix 4 second CD Q, down to 2.2 when isolated, 160 + bonus 110% AD damage, up to 264 + 180% bonus AD when isolated. Often builds 30 or even 40% CDR. Rengar 4 second CD Q, 210 + 120% bonus AD damage, as well as an auto attack reset for an extra 100% total AD. Often builds 30% CDR and takes 10% in runes (I believe, due to how important people say CDR is on him and because he needs ult to gank successfully most of the time.) Taliyah 6 second CD Q, 160 + 110% bonus AD damage, up to 320 + 220% bonus AD damage because reliable crits because tanks are slow and after the first one he'll be in melee range (not to mention he can probably engage just by walking up to them and throwing a W). Also an auto attack reset for 100% AD more damage. Also often builds 30% CDR. Akali 4 second CD passive, 3 CD E, 4 second CD Q. 60 + 60% bonus AD + 45% AP heal on passive, to make up for squish, 100 + 50% bonus AD + 65% AP damage from second passive hit. 190 + 80% bonus AD + 60% AP E damage. 270 + 95% AP Q damage as proc is guaranteed if Akali sticks on them in an extended fight.

Assassins have _plenty _of DPS. Too much, actually.

About 'squishy' - Most AD assassins have decent base health and often build a item 3071 . They are also melee, meaning they get more base MR than ADC's. AD assassins, for the most part, are tankier than ADC's. ADC's do not buy a 400 health item second. 3k health Rengars and Talon's are pretty common, although the Zed's and Kha's seem to stay at ~2.6k health. This means assassins are nowhere near as squishy as they should be. I blame Cleaver - the health buff AD nerf was actually a buff to assassins because they have plenty of damage from other sources.

Shablagoo1 votes

Why do you not see that you are proving my point? They have cd which means that their dps is delayed after they use all their abilities, how can you sit here an compare adc's dps to assassins dps when, I dont know how many times i have to repeat this, ADC HAVE NO CD ON THEIR AUTO DMG OTHER THEN ATTACK SPEED. In the 4 seconds before and after an adc is hitting 300 probably more with crit 600 per second per auto healing and criting while dealing that dmg.

You cant come and try and compare these two, assassin do have dps but its limited to their cd, adc are not 4 seconds is a lot in mid game. Assassin have alot of burst they deal alot of dmg once they have used their cd, but adc's have better dps AND burst with their crit which is what the post is about.

BC was literally the core for lucian, they were even thinking about nerfing it because of him also adc's dont need health items because they have a support that is sitting their either shielding, healing, or peeling for them. Most adc's get that 400 health from a 500 or more shield or heal so that 400 health is not even significant.

I almost forgot that if a fighter and assassin fights the fighter will win, putting a full build assassin against a fighter will end in the lost of the assassin because assassin build pure dmg while fighters build both defense and dmg, example darius he literally needs one item and deals 1k true dmg.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Why do you not see that you are proving my point? They have cd which means that their dps is delayed after they use all their abilities, how can you sit here an compare adc's dps to assassins dps when, I dont know how many times i have to repeat this, ADC HAVE NO CD ON THEIR AUTO DMG OTHER THEN ATTACK SPEED. In the 4 seconds before and after an adc is hitting 300 probably more with crit 600 per second per auto healing and criting while dealing that dmg.

You cant come and try and compare these two, assassin do have dps but its limited to their cd, adc are not 4 seconds is a lot in mid game. Assassin have alot of burst they deal alot of dmg once they have used their cd, but adc's have better dps AND burst with their crit which is what the post is about.

No, 4 seconds isn't much midgame. Even less with CDR. And that's the problem.

BC was literally the core for lucian, they were even thinking about nerfing it because of him also adc's dont need health items because they have a support that is sitting their either shielding, healing, or peeling for them. Most adc's get that 400 health from a 500 or more shield or heal so that 400 health is not even significant.

Amd who else? There's a reason it's a lot harder to kill an ADC when he has his sup with him

I almost forgot that if a fighter and assassin fights the fighter will win, putting a full build assassin against a fighter will end in the lost of the assassin because assassin build pure dmg while fighters build both defense and dmg, example darius he literally needs one item and deals 1k true dmg.

Darius isn't a fighter idiot

Full build assassin would just oneshot the fighter, but midgame assassin would outdps them.

Shablagoo1 votes

Are u genuinely try to tell me you think that assassins are a problem rn and that the have more dps then adc's? Either you arent playing the same game your you are in denial man

4 seconds regardless of what point of the game is huge man ppl die in less then that time how can you tell me 4 seconds is nothing.

Ashe used it too, and lucian using has been the biggest problem so far. The only reason they assassin use bc is because their own assassin items are trash. It isnt even problem on them because they are usually squishy still even with 400 health. I've also yet to see a single post even complaining about assassin using BC, because it isnt a problem on them and they dont have anything else. With the new lethality changes they probably wont even use it again. Yet the min Lucian started using it and still is he was a problem

Yes which is why 400 health is nothing compared to a adc which has a whole other character designed to protect and heal them. Do you purposely not understand things or is it just hard to understand? Adc's have every advantage over assassins as of now, after the assassin update. Assassins have delays on their dmg, while adc have absolutely no delay at all but for some reason you dont seem to acknowledge and and keep ignoring it. DPS DAMAGE PER SECOND, assassin deal their full dmg every 4 seconds while adc deal it EVERY SECOND. They also have significant burst with crits and heal about 12%-20% of the dmg done.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses Juggernats are a class of fighters you just keep proving you have no idea what you are talking about

Full build assassin vs full build Darius will not oneshot him, unless the darius isnt full build or has no armor. I dont know what game you play to think an assassin one shots a full build darius or fighter man.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Are u genuinely try to tell me you think that assassins are a problem rn and that the have more dps then adc's? Either you arent playing the same game your you are in denial man

4 seconds regardless of what point of the game is huge man ppl die in less then that time how can you tell me 4 seconds is nothing.

Ashe used it too, and lucian using has been the biggest problem so far. The only reason they assassin use bc is because their own assassin items are trash. It isnt even problem on them because they are usually squishy still even with 400 health. I've also yet to see a single post even complaining about assassin using BC, because it isnt a problem on them and they dont have anything else. With the new lethality changes they probably wont even use it again. Yet the min Lucian started using it and still is he was a problem

Yes which is why 400 health is nothing compared to a adc which has a whole other character designed to protect and heal them. Do you purposely not understand things or is it just hard to understand? Adc's have every advantage over assassins as of now, after the assassin update. Assassins have delays on their dmg, while adc have absolutely no delay at all but for some reason you dont seem to acknowledge and and keep ignoring it. DPS DAMAGE PER SECOND, assassin deal their full dmg every 4 seconds while adc deal it EVERY SECOND. They also have significant burst with crits and heal about 12%-20% of the dmg done.

Yeah but that's only lategame. Meh, you're probably right.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses Juggernats are a class of fighters you just keep proving you have no idea what you are talking about

Full build assassin vs full build Darius will not oneshot him, unless the darius isnt full build or has no armor. I dont know what game you play to think an assassin one shots a full build darius or fighter man.

Juggernauts are much tankier than fighters, and when I say fighters I'm talking about the diver/skirmisher type of fighter. Juggernauts are often nearly as tanky as full tanks.

Shablagoo1 votes

Its also not just late game its mid game, they get their items and powerspike midgame now which is the problem

Juggernauts area type of fighter man, divers are tanky too the whole fighter class is tanky.

Doozku2 votes

Note that Assassins tend to have skillshots or dodgeable abilities, like Zed Q or Kat Daggers, or their burst is gated behind some kind of condition, like Talon needing walls to gapclose or K6 needing his target to be isolated. ADC's have their main damage completely point and click with no counterplay or cooldown. It makes Assassins difficult to balance because they need to be able to outplay a class which is binary by design, which can be nearly impossible at times, and causes the Assassin class to be gimped as a result (of course this isn't the only reason why I think the Assassin class is gimped.).

Evil Yasuo1 votes

Checkout my Talon rework idea on my page, I think it would fix the problem and bring back fun Talon. I used to do something I called ambushing where i'd tp in a bush or just be hiding where it was unseen, ult, pop my ghostblade for speed and i'd run up to the enemy unseen (including my blades since they're in the dark area) and i'd blink to the enemy completely killing him unexpectedly. I will take being able to do moves like that over being able to jump over stuff tbh if I had to choose. It gave me a reason to take stormraiders for that speed burst to try to get out before I get destroyed.

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