Simple fix to Dominion

FluorescentBulb·Nov 7, 2016·4 votes·474 views

So Dominion still exists, the assets are all still there (definitely not or otherwise) so we know Riot can bring it back And we know Hexakill was a thing, the servers can handle it performance-wise

So why hasn't this been combined?

The minimum of capture the point in any fps is 6v6 for 3 points. 5v5 for 5 points is really stretching the resources in a unique, but not necessarily fun way.
Solo lanes are not fun in this unique mode as it just feels like SR with less minions, so adding more mayhem to the bot lane would make it much more fun.
More rotations is a good thing. The whole 4-0-1 into 3-1-1 can get somewhat stale, but a 2-2-2 into literally anything would be an amazing mindgame that dedicated players could coordinate.
It makes it its own. SR and ARAM are the tactical and the teamfight side of league that Dominion will never match individually. But make it the large map and people will flock to it.
Champion diversity would go way up if there were an extra slot open. The Masters Picks of Dominion will have to try a lot harder when they need to overcome additional foe.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I wasn't the biggest Dominion player but i can still see potential in the old gal, it would be a shame for it to be forgotten.

13 Comments

MinardeNov 7, 20164 votes

Solo lanes are not fun in this unique mode as it just feels like SR with less minions, so adding more mayhem to the bot lane would make it much more fun.

Even solo laning in Dom felt more fun than SR personally. It was about interacting with your lane opponent with minions as a potential tool for doing so. Meanwhile in SR, it's about interacting with minions, and your lane opponent is there as just another hurdle.

More rotations is a good thing. The whole 4-0-1 into 3-1-1 can get somewhat stale, but a 2-2-2 into literally anything would be an amazing mindgame that dedicated players could coordinate.

Why would the meta suddenly change into a 2-2-2 split? Double backdoorers seems excessive, and double bot-laners seems like an over-investment.

It makes it its own. SR and ARAM are the tactical and the teamfight side of league that Dominion will never match individually.

Wait, what? SR has the strategy side covered, but Dominion is much more tactical than SR.

But make it the large map and people will flock to it.

Dominion's issue was never the number of players: the mode just suffered from a lack of a niche. As a competitive mode, SR wins hands-down due to the massive amount of resources Riot funnels into it. SR gets balance patches, constant ads, dev team communication, pro league hype, and much more. On the other side of the spectrum, ARAM wins over the casual crowd with its minimum barrier of entry and straightforward gameplay. Even Treeline sorta has a niche as a smaller competitive map via ranked (although the Champ Mastery restriction makes absolutely no sense). Dominion's gameplay lends itself to competitive play, yet the mode had no official competitive opportunities. As a result, it wasn't appealing to the general League playerbase, which made Riot hesitant to spend resources on it, which made it even more unappealing to the general playerbase.

FluorescentBulbNov 7, 20161 votes

{quoted} Even solo laning in Dom felt more fun than SR personally. It was about interacting with your lane opponent with minions as a potential tool for doing so. Meanwhile in SR, it's about interacting with minions, and your lane opponent is there as just another hurdle.

A solo lane has different dynamics for different matchups, but its all the same. Farm, poke, trade, all-in, and ignore all else unless someone roams. It's all the same. You can't really call it different by the level of aggression. Renekton top and Karthus mid are different, but solo lane is still solo lane.

Why would the meta suddenly change into a 2-2-2 split? Double backdoorers seems excessive, and double bot-laners seems like an over-investment.

Whatever meta forms it will have more versatility and rotations. In anygame, League included, controlling the center is always important because it gives you the most mobility. That was just a theory in a way where the backdoorers can swing literally anywhere with more force than before. They aren't so much backdoorers at that point as Charlie team, assisting, attacking, or sniping as needed.

Wait, what? SR has the strategy side covered, but Dominion is much more tactical than SR.

Not really. SR has a jungler, global ults, TP, roaming, invading, counter jungling, many ways to get that small edge to victory. Dominion doesn't really have that and is so fast that there isn't even much room to explore that with how few resources you get. You push, you backdoor, or you gank bot. Even the neutral objective is only obtainable by your own team, there is a severe lack of actual real choices to make.

Dominion's issue was never the number of players: the mode just suffered from a lack of a niche. As a competitive mode, SR wins hands-down due to the massive amount of resources Riot funnels into it. SR gets balance patches, constant ads, dev team communication, pro league hype, and much more. On the other side of the spectrum, ARAM wins over the casual crowd with its minimum barrier of entry and straightforward gameplay. Even Treeline sorta has a niche as a smaller competitive map via ranked (although the Champ Mastery restriction makes absolutely no sense). Dominion's gameplay lends itself to competitive play, yet the mode had no official competitive opportunities. As a result, it wasn't appealing to the general League playerbase, which made Riot hesitant to spend resources on it, which made it even more unappealing to the general playerbase.

Yes, I want to give Dominion the niche of the 6v6 map. We must face facts that Dominion will never be more popular than SR so it desperately needs something to make it stand out more than its shape. New mechanics, logistics, and strategies can all be found in 6v6. As you say, TT is the small map, SR the standard, so we should make Dominion the big one so it has its niche from which to grow. It has to be fun before it is supported.

MinardeNov 8, 20162 votes

A solo lane has different dynamics for different matchups, but its all the same. Farm, poke, trade, all-in, and ignore all else unless someone roams. It's all the same. You can't really call it different by the level of aggression. Renekton top and Karthus mid are different, but solo lane is still solo lane.

I was responding to the claim that solo lanes aren't fun in Dom. It's all subjective.

That was just a theory in a way where the backdoorers can swing literally anywhere with more force than before. They aren't so much backdoorers at that point as Charlie team, assisting, attacking, or sniping as needed.

That's what the 4 (5 in the hypothetical 6-man) guys top already do. They move through the jungle, attacking and responding as appropriate.

Not really. SR has a jungler, global ults, TP, roaming, invading, counter jungling, many ways to get that small edge to victory. Dominion doesn't really have that and is so fast that there isn't even much room to explore that with how few resources you get. You push, you backdoor, or you gank bot. Even the neutral objective is only obtainable by your own team, there is a severe lack of actual real choices to make.

Dominion's entire game flow is based around getting small edges to victory. Because of the map size and game pace, choices are much more pressing than on SR. For SR, you plan around objectives minutes away (e.g. dragon's coming up, so we should start setting up bot). You can even stall the game out to recover from earlier misplays. That's not an option in Dom. If your team is outplayed once, you're now behind and will have to make an equivalent play later to make up for it.

As an side note, aside from bot-lane, very little pushing actually happens. The majority of the match is spent fighting for map control by predicting the enemy team's positions and roaming to optimize your team's positions and roaming. I agree that the center Storm Relic really wasn't too interesting though.

Yes, I want to give Dominion the niche of the 6v6 map. We must face facts that Dominion will never be more popular than SR so it desperately needs something to make it stand out more than its shape. New mechanics, logistics, and strategies can all be found in 6v6. As you say, TT is the small map, SR the standard, so we should make Dominion the big one so it has its niche from which to grow. It has to be fun before it is supported.

"Fun" and "supported" are entirely separate. Dominion was incredibly fun, enough for fans to stick around despite the years of abysmal support. What Dominion wasn't was "popular," and that's where support comes in. Regardless of how many new mechanics, logistics, or strategies are present in a 6v6 mode, it won't make a difference. It'll still be a competitive mode with neither competitive support nor competitive outlets.

It's not a gameplay problem (mostly), but a marketing one. Dominion will never be popular if Riot never gives players a reason to play it.

FluorescentBulbNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I was responding to the claim that solo lanes aren't fun in Dom. It's all subjective.

I posted this elsewhere too, but its not that it isn't fun per se. It's that SR and TT each have 2 solo lanes. For a unique experience that should be avoided at all costs.

That's what the 4 (5 in the hypothetical 6-man) guys top already do. They move through the jungle, attacking and responding as appropriate.

The more the merrier. Honestly Dominion is sparse for spare resources, a point you made in the next point as well. Adding more people creates more action and bigger swing opportunities while maintaining the fast pace.

Dominion's entire game flow is based around getting small edges to victory. Because of the map size and game pace, choices are much more pressing than on SR. For SR, you plan around objectives minutes away (e.g. dragon's coming up, so we should start setting up bot). You can even stall the game out to recover from earlier misplays. That's not an option in Dom. If your team is outplayed once, you're now behind and will have to make an equivalent play later to make up for it.

As an side note, aside from bot-lane, very little pushing actually happens. The majority of the match is spent fighting for map control by predicting the enemy team's positions and roaming to optimize your team's positions and roaming. I agree that the center Storm Relic really wasn't too interesting though.

I don't see anything in this part that disagrees with me. I said there are too few resources and time to give meaningful choices. You said that mistakes press you for time because the pacing makes it impossible to stall out like on SR. You described the game as I did but did not give a point. Also I meant pushing the next top point, not conventional pushing like in bot lane.

"Fun" and "supported" are entirely separate. Dominion was incredibly fun, enough for fans to stick around despite the years of abysmal support. What Dominion wasn't was "popular," and that's where support comes in. Regardless of how many new mechanics, logistics, or strategies are present in a 6v6 mode, it won't make a difference. It'll still be a competitive mode with neither competitive support nor competitive outlets.

It's not a gameplay problem (mostly), but a marketing one. Dominion will never be popular if Riot never gives players a reason to play it.

You seem to be alarmingly aware that you are in the vast minority that thought Dominion was fun, yet are still claiming the community found it fun enough to keep around. Sorry to say, but hardly anyone found it fun, which is what made bots so prevalent, which is what killed more fans, which is what led it to be removed. If no one is playing a game, they are going to cut the server because its too expensive to keep running. Riot is still a business, and they will only throw money at what makes them money. Yes, fun and support are different things, I was saying you need to have both, and in the case of a popular game you need to be fun first. Dominion was fun, but not fun enough for the funding. It won't come back as it was, it never will besides in a grab bag mode. It needs a drastic change and I think this is the best way while not changing its core, literally not changing it at all, just adding more players.

PS, please no more bullet points. Just make a post. That's how conversations work.

MinardeNov 17, 20161 votes

My point was that SR cannot compare to Dominion in terms of tactics. Dom's pacing, game flow, anti-snowballing, and win conditions all specifically emphasize small victories and consistently outplaying the enemy team. Plus, besides jungling and TP, all the options for SR that you named exist in Dominion as well.

Anyway, I find it a little strange that you keep skipping over the crux of my argument. Before I get into that though, there's a couple misunderstandings here. First, I claimed that the community found Dominion fun enough for the community to stay around rather than anything about keeping the mode around. Secondly, bots were/are present in every mode (personally I ran into far more bots in ARAM and Co-op than in Dom), and it's arguably Riot's fault that they infested PvP modes in the first place. Before the XP/IP changes to custom games, bots just kept to themselves in their own little corner. Although Riot successfully forced bots out of custom games, Riot simply unleashed the bots upon the rest of League instead of actually solving the botting problem.

Now then, back to my argument. As you said, fun and support are both vital things. I mean, look at SR. Some people find SR fun, and Riot supports it, so things go well. Contrast that situation with Dominion, where some people found Dom fun despite Riot's (lack of) support. Drastic gameplay changes could help Dominion, but they cannot fix Dominion because the fundamental problem with Dominion is not a gameplay one.

Basically, there is no incentive for players to play and learn Dominion, so most players didn't bother starting. It had little to do with fun (or lack thereof). As a competitive mode, SR players can strive for acclaim and bragging rights via high ranking. Experienced players can watch and appreciate pro league play. At the very least, players could look forward to balance/gameplay changes shifting up the mode. Dominion players had absolutely none of that. The only thing good players received were longer queue times. "As a reward for being so good at our game, you get to spend more time waiting to play our game!" Meanwhile, as a casual mode. ARAM is significantly easier both to get into and to play.

Adding more players could certainly revitalize some interest in Dominion. However, it won't maintain that interest for long, since the underlying issue hasn't been addressed.

P.S. The quoting was meant to break up long replies and make it easier to follow what I was responding to. If you'd prefer contiguous blocks of text though, I can certainly oblige.

1 800 Top LaneNov 7, 20161 votes

The main issue with dominion was all the botters. The same issue any aram game before lvl 30 is 7/10 bots. For some reason nothing gets done about it though.

FluorescentBulbNov 8, 20161 votes

True. It did lack a working infrastructure. Still, making the game more populated would reduce the problem and make fixing it more of a priority. While both need to happen independently, they do support each other.

LovelleNov 10, 20161 votes

Dominion is fast enough without a 6th person on each team.

I also disagree about the solo lanes not being "fun," as that's just a matter of opinion. Before the introduction of Revive trinkets, bot lane on Dominion was one of the easiest ways to carry games. Either way, it's a much more interactive experience than solo laning on SR.

I would argue that champion diversity was always much better on Dominion than on Summoner's Rift, especially this season. In particular, the ranged vs melee situation is much better on Dominion due to how the objectives work.

FluorescentBulbNov 14, 20161 votes

It's not that it's not fun, its just not a unique experience. You can play a solo in SR and TT in several lanes. For something so different it should strive to be as different as possible.

You can say it was more diverse, then adding a 6th would just make it exponentially more so. 5v5 is how it has always been, but that doesn't always have to be the case. No one is saying 5 is best, otherwise they might as well make TT 5v5 too.

LovelleNov 14, 20161 votes

Personally, I found Dominion more "unique" than just about every game mode they've added so far to the game (then swiftly have taken away). There was far more variety in team composition and snowballing was pretty much non-existent (since everyone stayed pretty much even in gold and levels).

5v5 on TT just doesn't work, since the map is too small. It gives control/siege mages and poke champions have far too much of an advantage, since there isn't enough room to dodge their skillshots. Most melee champions are unplayable when you add more than 6 champions to TT's map. It's just far too snowbally and punishes even the slightest mistakes. Go play Hexakill for a few games and you'll see what I mean. The same thing would more or less happen with Dominion if you added another player. Champs like Jayce, Nid, Brand, Lux, Syndra, Vel'koz would just dominate (more than they already do) with little to stop them.

FluorescentBulbNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I found Dominion more "unique" than just about every game mode they've added so far to the game (then swiftly have taken away). There was far more variety in team composition and snowballing was pretty much non-existent (since everyone stayed pretty much even in gold and levels).

5v5 on TT just doesn't work, since the map is too small. It gives control/siege mages and poke champions have far too much of an advantage, since there isn't enough room to dodge their skillshots. Most melee champions are unplayable when you add more than 6 champions to TT's map. It's just far too snowbally and punishes even the slightest mistakes. Go play Hexakill for a few games and you'll see what I mean. The same thing would more or less happen with Dominion if you added another player. Champs like Jayce, Nid, Brand, Lux, Syndra, Vel'koz would just dominate (more than they already do) with little to stop them.

I'd ask you to please read posts completely before making a response. It's too ridiculous to have a conversation online with someone who doesn't. I called solo laning in Dominion a non-unique experience, not Dominion as a whole. And 5v5 on TT was a hyperbolic statement regarding people being stuck in their ways. Truly it is much too small a map for such a game, but with how open and expansive Dominion is it would be perfect. With more room to run and more angles to hit objectives from would be a great place for Hexakill.

LovelleNov 15, 20161 votes

I personally don't think it would work, but why not? It's not like there's anything left to lose at this point. Regular Dominion is never coming back anyway.

FluorescentBulbNov 16, 20161 votes

My thoughts exactly. Its not just getting it back, its getting people to play it more than ever.