4.8 seconds with 40% CDR, I'm just kind of wondering why it's so low?
Edit: Please realize that he can go 
and just needs 5% CDR from masteries or runes to attain 40% CDR. Now you have an untargetable tank every 4.8 seconds dealing shit loads of damage with zero counter play O.O
WalkingInACircle99 votesBecause it has long mobility, intargetability, high AoE damage and a slow. It needs a low cooldown too.
Malcha5 votesWell, sort of. Those things are conditional on how the move is used.
He doesn't get the slow if he actually uses it to go anywhere.
Also, he is an assassin. If he's using Playful and getting the slow off, it's a fair chance he's gonna have a bad time unless he caught someone out.
Verxint26 votesYea, i mean, it doesn't knockup.
A Miss Fortune55 votesYet
RiotRiotRepertoir75 votesHonestly, it probably doesn't make sense to stay what it is if tanky builds are effective for him. Having burst avoidance/mitigation is cool, but having it on top of general tankiness, good damage, and mobility probably isn't cool. I'm not sure whether the best thing to do is to nerf Fizz's E, or to just make him do less damage with tanky builds.
Desiderium6 votesI think the issue here is not any part of his damage, but his E's design.
Before hitting him too hard, we should take it slow and do a few easy nerfs, like making his E's landing hitbox actually match the visuals. This will also have the added benefit of making Fizz have to put himself at a bit more risk when trying to use E offensively.
Also, increase the delay in which he can land from the pole. This will force him to be untargetable for a slightly longer amount of time, but give you more time to think about what he's doing and where he's going.
If he's still a problem after these nerfs, then I believe we should be looking at his bases and ratios.
Enosetc93 votesHonestly, it probably doesn't make sense to stay what it is if tanky builds are effective for him. Having burst avoidance/mitigation is cool, but having it on top of general tankiness, good damage, and mobility probably isn't cool. I'm not sure whether the best thing to do is to nerf Fizz's E, or to just make him do less damage with tanky builds.
http://engineering.hobsons.com/public/images/why-not-both.gif
Tis a nice day10 votesThat's honestly what's Riot has been doing with their double-nerfs to things such as Sejuani+Cinderhulk.
Voluug1332 votesThe difference is that Fizz has been toxic since day one, and bulky Fizz makes everything worse.
Sejuani had a time on the spotlight and everyone lost their minds while ignoring Sejuani's weaknesses.
brad11 votesThe difference is that Fizz has been toxic since day one, and bulky Fizz makes everything worse.
Sejuani had a time on the spotlight and everyone lost their minds while ignoring Sejuani's weaknesses.
translated to: "oh well i hate fizz and i dont care how it goes for him i just want him deleted from the game"
everyone knows what happens when you nerf an item and a champion at the same time, and i dont care how much you hate fizz, no champion deserves to be trash tier
LaceUp239 votesExcept Riven.
Doctor Ivellius9 votesAnd Kalista.
LaceUp236 votesI honestly don't find Kalista to be that big of a deal, especially after the nerfs.
Ariel the Cruel9 votesIt's not because she's strong that Kalista deserves to be trash tier. . .
Mansana3 votesOne of the worst feelings when playing against Fizz is when he uses E to gap close (untargetable), Q,W for damage the instant he lands from E, then 
and E back out. Basically having no counter play to stop his burst from reaching you and leaves like nothing happened.
TotalJerk1 votesThose E cooldowns would be a lot more justifiable if he had a reason not to max it first.
Sire Hippington2 votesthereis a good reason to not max it first, and most good fizzplayers therefor don't max it... W adds FAR MORE DAMAGE if maxed first, for way less mana. His E's manacosts get pretty high if maxes first. The valid reason to max E over W on him is if you play him mid and have to play save either cause of a bad matchup or enemie junglepresence, as maxing E gives more waveclear and the lower cd makes you a bit more save, while as a midlaner you usually get blue to help out with mana.
Altricad15 votesIf Fizz's E is nerfed, it'll significantly hurt Ap fizz more than tank fizz. Ap fizz needs the low cd from and blue buff along with untargetability to meaningfully manuevure in teamfights.
Many people say just "increase the cd" but doing that would make fizz an AP talon. Go in, burst someone and then die, but since all of Fizz's damage is telegraphed/ delayed ( qss fizz ult, use zhonya) he'd be a weaker version of Ap talon. He'd literally become an inferior version of ekko
And his damage when built tank is actually inferior when compared to 
or 
, it's just his untargetability is favored as an escape tool in pro games where mis-positioning is punished heavily
Honestly, almost all of fizz's skills are dodge able ( you can flash/dash out of his q and take no damage) , so the low cd on his only escape is fine
ArkenStorm8 votesexcept if you're an immobile champion
Hiphoppopatomus5 votesIf Fizz's E is nerfed, it'll significantly hurt Ap fizz more than tank fizz. Ap fizz needs the low cd from
And his damage when built tank is actually inferior when compared to
Honestly, almost all of fizz's skills are dodge able ( you can flash/dash out of his q and take no damage) , so the low cd on his only escape is fine
What?
I hope you're joking for emphasis because 
has literally 0 AP ratios and will do absolutely no damage ever. Did you mean AD Talon?
And none of this damage is dodgeable without a skill to physically dodge 
. Saying you can flash/dash means you have to have one. What if you're champ has no dashes and you flash? Fizz can just E to you or Ult and walk up to you without even him having to use a summoner spell. And what if he dashes and you flash then he just waits? What happens next time he dashes to you? What if your dash was an ult on a longer cooldown than his dash? It's not as simple as "Just dodge it!" Or people like Ahri/Xerath/Ziggs/Ezreal would never see the light of day.
I agree that nerfing the total damage on E would hurt AP fizz more than tank fizz (Tank fizz generally maxes W first for more damage over time while AP fizz maxes E for upfront burst/waveclear). But a nerf of base damage and buff to ratios could actually buff AP fizz depending on how it's done.
I don't think is comparable to 
though, at least in the current meta. Ekko only has 1.5 dashes (Short range dash + blink) and has a massive AoE Stun/Shield with a re-do ult. He is used primarily for zone control with his Q/W and for soaking damage then ulting to mitigate a large portion of it (as tank ekko at least) and is generally much safer than fizz (Retreating slow/stun/damage zones on chasing foes) whereas all of fizz's utility and damage, except his ult, come from going all in. If anything I'd compare to 
since they fulfill similar roles these days of backline divers who can't do anything if they aren't in the enemy's face. Though, I'd say pony is more of a true front liner and fish is a weird tricky skirmisher assassin.
Also, is very sticky and disruptive compared to / .
is capable of getting to the back line very quickly without even expending a summoner spell by Q -> E -> Ulting the backline and, by the time ult completes, E is back up for escape. With max CDR he has a 4.8s Intangibility/dash/wallhop/AoE Slow , an AoE Slow/ Damage Amplifier Ult with mini knock up, and a 3.6s gap closer Q (And for Tank fizz a Speed up from Triforce and slow from BotRK).
has just his Q and a delayed E but which cannot be reactivated to go in a different direction unlike fizz, not to mention Jax's E is on a longer cooldown and Jax doesn't build as much CDR due to HP/Lifesteal/SpellVamp synergizing with his kit better (Ult gives Armor/MR, most go for Randuin's for added stickiness or Gunblade for Stickiness + Damage + more defense on ult).
's skills are single target, aside from her ult which generally isn't the main focus of your damage. So each trade off something even if their single target damage might be slightly greater than fizz's.
Sorry for the rant, I just don't agree.
ccseancc14316 votesHe meant he would basically become Talon but, an AP version ya retard
Terchio2 votesMany people say just "increase the cd" but doing that would make fizz an AP talon.
Okay, I'll buy it.
since all of Fizz's damage is telegraphed/ delayed ( qss fizz ult, use zhonya) he'd be a weaker version of Ap talon.
Nah, I don't think so. He means "AP Talon" at this point.
yay nibbers6 votesImprove your damn reading comprehension. He clearly means "an AP version of Talon" and just worded a phrase or two poorly.
The Yetii Rider7 votesHonestly, it probably doesn't make sense to stay what it is if tanky builds are effective for him. Having burst avoidance/mitigation is cool, but having it on top of general tankiness, good damage, and mobility probably isn't cool. I'm not sure whether the best thing to do is to nerf Fizz's E, or to just make him do less damage with tanky builds.
It's a little hard for you to do that, seeing as builds like the OPs don't actually rely on kits to deal damage. Spellblade scales off base AD, BoRK active scales off total health, and BoRK passive scales off current health. All of that is just fine, the only thing you could do to touch it would be to remove the damage amp from Fizz's Chum the Waters, but that counterplay is very much necessary for people to feel that assassin Fizz isn't such a mindless QWE machine.
The problem is that Riot keeps putting damage on items in addition to offensive stats. We don't need that. Champions who have perfectly balanced kits do not need bonus damage on top of bonus damage on top of their kits. Luden's Echo, Lich Bane, and Blade of the Ruined King add so much additional damage without really paying for it in cost of stat or slot efficiency. BoRK gives lifesteal and attack speed and a small amount of AD, and since all of those stats scale off each other, it's a very slot efficient item when you combine it with other marksman items that give more AD, more AS, or more crit individually. BoRK is a great all-rounder item that also adds damage to a champion's kit for no reason. Lich Bane gives 80 AP, mana, and move speed, and adds a 50% AP modifier to each of a champion's abilities, provided that champion can weave auto attacks between them. And then there's Luden's Echo...which adds 400+40% AP to a champion's poke or rotation. Unnecessary.
And because these items add so much on their own, champions who build them feel unbalanced because their kits were just fine before they got so much extra damage from their items, and now people are calling for champions like Vayne, Fizz and Ahri to be nerfed simply because of their item builds.
laststanding63 votesHere's an idea, rework his E a little bit. Make it so instead of seconds of uncounterable invulnerability, it absorbed one ability for zero damage and gives fizz some damage reduction for a few seconds after his e is popped or jumps. So, to elaborate, let's use a fizz vs zed scenario. Currently to counter zed, all fizz needs to do is e and Zeds damage is gone. But how bout, when zed jumps and fizz e's, when zed say uses a q, the pole absorbed the damage and fizz is flung off the pole towards his cursor or whatever. upon landing he is given a short damage reduction buff to make up for lost invulnerability. That way you still keep fizz's counter play and tricky core, but you make him 3000% less of an ass to kill.
Earl Eulrich3 voteshe already drops really hard later on with that build and still dies really fast - it´s a pure snowball thing. And there are way worse offenders in that regard in the game, so it´s probably the best thing to keep Fizz popular...
Teridax682 votesI think the issue comes from his passive. He innately blocks damage from basic attacks better than 
(!) even in the late-game, and from what I understand flat damage reduction works really well with tanky itemization. It definitely doesn't look like the best fit for a squishy assassin who's meant to have windows of extreme vulnerability while he's not on his troll pole, so it would likely be worth removing the flat damage reduction and perhaps buffing his base armor/armor growth in compensation. As for him lacking a passive, at the very worst you could move Seastone Trident's passive rend effect to his innate and work from there.
Sire Hippington3 votesThe idea of his passive is to help him early on against harras and msotly minion aggro. If fizz wants to trade in lane, he will always get minon aggro, which for a squishy usually is brutal early on. So the probably better aproach wpuld be to slightly buff the passive numbers, but change it to be applyed befor the %mitigation from armor rather than after, takeing away the tank/lategame synergie of it.
Teridax681 votesI don't think an under-the-hood change like that would be the best thing to do to any champion, particularly since it would be super-low on visibility while having a ton of hidden power changes. Making an effect exceptional just so that it works less with other effects also doesn't sound like the way to go. Considering how all minion damage is physical, increasing Fizz's armor bases would provide mitigation that wouldn't interact as weirdly with tank itemization, and in the absolute worst case his current passive could just be restricted to minions.
Sire Hippington3 votesi disagree here, his passive already is super low on visibillity, and the amount off armor you'd need to get the same kind of damage reduce vs minions would make him totally broken vs any physical-damage champ.
A ranged minion deals 23 damage at level 1, so post mitigation fizz recives 16 damage(16base armor->~14%reduction, followed by -4 from passive) to reach that value from armor alone you need ~45armor, so nearly 30 more armor than now...
For melee-minions, it would be even more extreme as they have a far lower base damage.
Also, since Dorans shield works already as pre-mitigation, it wouldn't be 'exceptional '...
Trumpet2 votesThe issue is on AP fizz E is an integral part to his burst and any longer CD on it would be death to him.
The best way to deal with tank fizz is probably to find a way to make him scale poorly with AD and non-lichbane on hit. (so up the AP Scaling on his q, remove the ad scaling) and remove the damage amp on shark.
Sire Hippington4 votesI'd prefer to nerf his synergie with tanky builts a bit. Beeing very slippery is core to his identity as a character, and beeing squishy usually went with that, so nerfing E in any other way than nerfing the damage would hurt his identity.
i think the easiest step to deal with rank fizz would be changeing his ult to only amp magical damage, so tank fizz looses some all-in damage without really do much harm for ap-fizz. Maybe a lower basedamage on E or slightly lower base ad could help aswell.
Or finaly nerfing BotrK, if a item that mostly offers AS+ a strong on-hit is staple on corki, who neither synergieses with AS nor On-hit, then it might be overtuned...
youngjake932 votesHonestly, it probably doesn't make sense to stay what it is if tanky builds are effective for him. Having burst avoidance/mitigation is cool, but having it on top of general tankiness, good damage, and mobility probably isn't cool. I'm not sure whether the best thing to do is to nerf Fizz's E, or to just make him do less damage with tanky builds.
You could just nerf BORK. Fizz is not the only champion that can build BORK into full tank and still do a ton of damage to both squishies and tanks. You could fix Vayne and every Devourer jungler at the same time too by changing BORK
Lajneen3 votesLow elo trash will never stop crying about Fizz, just ignore them. There's nothing wrong with his kit, they're just terrible players who rather cry than learning how to play.
Llanite15 votesBecause it's his only wave clear, disengage, defense and the biggest nuke.
If he uses it for any of the above, he loses the other 3, hence, should have lower CD.
Similar to how Nasus Q only has 4s CD - 70% of his power budget lies with that single ability.
Heckin Support3 votesWhy should a mobility spell be included with wave clear. Most assassins wave clear and mobility spells are 2 different things for a reason.
General Esdeath 4 votesBecause he can use it to cs (his cs game is weak early mid because range champs poke him) or he can use it to prevent ganks. It's like a zed shadow, increase your damage/wave clear or don't die to ganks and miss CS.
Voluug133 votesIsnt he supposed to have a weak laning in exchange of general assassin goodies?
Or people are still feigning ignorance at the fact Fizz doesnt have a bad laning, thanks to his mobility and and harass passive, plus Flaskpots?
General Esdeath 3 votesIf you buy flask you don't have damage, and anyone with range will just poke away all your flasks. That includes 
Sire Hippington3 votesactually,many assasins have their waveclear attached to their defensive tool, Dianas shield(though she waveclears with all but ult...), Talons W(the ranged slow is by far a better escape than his enemie only E. Kahs W(yeah, E is prime escape, but it's on a huge cd, and the W slow+W sure help at getting away aswell) Zed Needs the double-shuriken to properly waveclear, + shadow E to hit both melee and ranged without getting out of position, so to maximize waveclear, he needs his escape. Fizz and His E Leblanc and her W Ecco in a similar way to talon/Kah needs his ranged slow, while his E is lackluster as escape, since the dash is short and the blink only works vs enemies...
SouL1ess10 votesBecause everything he does depends on Playful/Trickster being available.
King Odin14 votesWell I'm not sure him being able to kill me with W into Q with lich bane being dependant of him having a low cd escape but okay I guess.
Llanite11 votesHis Q has 10+AA+0.6= ~70 + 0.6 and his W has 15 +0.25. Totally 85 + 0.85 which is less than a single Annie Q at level 1.
With lichbane, the entire combo is ~140+1.35 which is still less than Annie unleveled Q+W.
You are either seriously underfed or trolling.
Altricad3 votesAlso take into consideration that one can dodge fizz Q by dashing/blinking away. Annie q chases you into the summoner pool
Dies to Wolves9 votesbut muh "high risk"
Only Play Darius8 votesHave you seen it's mana cost?
Altricad6 votes1/3rd of his mana pool at level 1
Use it 3 times, and you're finished in lane
The Bearded Bard10 votes1/3rd of his mana pool at level 1
Use it 3 times, and you're finished in lane
Man it sure is lame that Fizz doesn't get mana per level, and that all mana items are disabled for him, and also mana regen and doran's ring don't work on him.
Jeddy0175 votesTo say "Fuck your abilities,now cry" more often.But usually I just rage instead of cry.
Talinis4 votesYes, you point out that FIzz's escape/gap opener/closer is very low. Then you fail to point out that EVERY OTHER ASSASSIN in the game has some kind of ranged move on a basic ability. And the ones that have pretty weak poke like Akali/Katrina have resets. Zed/LB have instant port backs yet have good ranged poke. Fizz no, he must go in melee to any damage unless he wants to use his ult for just poke. The ridiculous assessment some people have about champions is hilarious. Look at what other assassins have and then realize what Fizz is lacking and why he has the invulnerability and low cds in the first place. He absolutely has to have the most all in damage compared to any other assassins because of his lack of healing (some get it inherit, ADs get it from lifesteal), and his lack of poke (every other assassin has some or they are given resets to make up for their weaker poke like akali/kat) and his lack of range (all of LB's spells are range and autos are range, yet she can port around anywhere). Most other assassins can poke down the enemy to 60% and then all in, NOT FIZZ, he must go into melee range to trade. He also has mana constraints unlike a portion of the assassins who are manaless or have zero resources in the case of katrina. Learn to actually assess the game correctly and then construct better feedback on the champion. If tank Fizz is too strong, then nerfing his CDS are not the answer as AP fizz absolutely needs it based on his weaknesses. Nerfing his base damage and upping his Ratios so that he actually MUST get some AP into his builds could work. A tankier AP build should be able to work but not one with zero AP.
