When 8 out of 10 players every game have the same mastery keystone, I think it's time to admit that it is a bit too good. Every position is taking it, adc, mid, sup, top. Every game I see the same thing, everyone has it. And I can't blame them.
M15TAH JAY2 votesIt's because people are stupid and don't know how to setup masteries for shit...like the other guy said ali should have windspeakers why he had thunderlord is beyond me but its people who don't know how to play their role and or they just choose to ignore it i understand sometimes its fine to go off meta but this is stupid i only use thunderlords on champs i can get the most use out of it with if I play support i use support masteries so i can play my damn role properly and not be a tryhard looking for kills while looking like reject the whole time
Aeolian Melodies1 votes[{quoted}](name=M15TAH JAY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3mXUzKn8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-24T20:05:45.313+0000)
It's because people are stupid and don't know how to setup masteries for shit...like the other guy said ali should have windspeakers why he had thunderlord is beyond me but its people who don't know how to play their role and or they just choose to ignore it i understand sometimes its fine to go off meta but this is stupid i only use thunderlords on champs i can get the most use out of it with if I play support i use support masteries so i can play my damn role properly and not be a tryhard looking for kills while looking like reject the whole time
I wouldn't go that far. First of all, the keystone is at the bottom of the tree made for non-tank supports, so it's not like supports are going out of their way to invest in a tree they wouldn't have invested in otherwise.
Furthermore, Thunderlord's can be justified on many supports. All mages supports, for starters, since they don't make good use of the other keystones. Sona is a decent user of TL since she can AA-Q-PC quickly with relative ease for a lot of poke on the enemy bot lane. I gave it a couple of tries as Sona and it works nicely, if you don't get overzealous trying to proc it. She does work very well with Windspeaker too, so I'd say it's a choice between more aggro in lane VS more sustain and damage prevention.
Overall it is a good keystone for poke/mage supports who seek to further enhance their poke (especially those who don't use Windspeaker well or at all). Why a full melee tank support got it over Bond of Stone is beyond me. Didn't work out too well for him, he got the proc like... twice in the laning phase (well, we were playing Janna + Ez so pretty hard for him to stick). I could imagine, however, someone like Leona going more gimmicky and using it since EQW (which is what she'll do anyway) procs it for surprise dmg that can be helpful in a bursty lane.
M15TAH JAY1 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3mXUzKn8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-12-24T20:30:18.801+0000)
I wouldn't go that far. First of all, the keystone is at the bottom of the tree made for non-tank supports, so it's not like supports are going out of their way to invest in a tree they wouldn't have invested in otherwise.
Furthermore, Thunderlord's can be justified on many supports. All mages supports, for starters, since they don't make good use of the other keystones. Sona is a decent user of TL since she can AA-Q-PC quickly with relative ease for a lot of poke on the enemy bot lane. I gave it a couple of tries as Sona and it works nicely, if you don't get overzealous trying to proc it. She does work very well with Windspeaker too, so I'd say it's a choice between more aggro in lane VS more sustain and damage prevention.
Overall it is a good keystone for poke/mage supports who seek to further enhance their poke (especially those who don't use Windspeaker well or at all). Why a full melee tank support got it over Bond of Stone is beyond me. Didn't work out too well for him, he got the proc like... twice in the laning phase (well, we were playing Janna + Ez so pretty hard for him to stick). I could imagine, however, someone like Leona going more gimmicky and using it since EQW (which is what she'll do anyway) procs it for surprise dmg that can be helpful in a bursty lane.
yea i suppose theres exceptions just from personal experience (i dont see too much thunderlord but when I do...) it seems like its being used on the wrong champs
Aeolian Melodies1 votes[{quoted}](name=M15TAH JAY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3mXUzKn8,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T20:38:48.547+0000)
yea i suppose theres exceptions just from personal experience (i dont see too much thunderlord but when I do...) it seems like its being used on the wrong champs
Here's the thing though: it's extra dmg every time you attack or land a spell 3 times in a row on an enemy champion, which falls in the pattern of most champions. It procs off Lux E/Q -> AA for passive proc, it procs off Zyra's plants, it procs off Vayne AA-AA-QAA with her W, and so forth. Free damage for what you were going to do anyway can never really be a bad choice. Only champions who specifically want other keystones aren't at a disadvantage when not using TL, and even so they can hardly go wrong with it. Like, Nami is better with Windspeaker, but she could very well pack TL and self-cast E AA-W-AA for extra damage and it'd work nicely with her poke game.
Aeolian Melodies1 votesPlayed vs an Ali last game who had it. When someone like him who should clearly go Windspeaker or Bond of Stone chooses Thunderlord's, there is an issue - however, I think a lot of TL's popularity stems from the fact that 1) it's at the bottom of a tree a lot of champions can/want to invest in, and 2) the other alternatives, except Windspeaker for certain supports and other champions who have specific synergy with certain keystone (such as Yasuo with the cirt one), aren't attractive enough.
aLawfulFalafel1 votesim gonna have to disagree with you there....i wouldnt put windspeaker or bond of stone on ali, i would use either thunderlords (which i rarely use tbh) because W-Q-auto, or auto - heal - auto (healing procs passive which 'should' [idk if it does] proc thunderlords if beside enemy champ) or grasp of the undying as ali becomes stupid hard to kill with that heal steal every 4 seconds (in combat, but cmon, ur ali, u can always be in combat lol)
EDIT : was the ali support or top lane? (i was assuming top lane when i first replied)
Aeolian Melodies2 votesim gonna have to disagree with you there....i wouldnt put windspeaker or bond of stone on ali, i would use either thunderlords (which i rarely use tbh) because W-Q-auto, or auto - heal - auto (healing procs passive which 'should' [idk if it does] proc thunderlords if beside enemy champ) or grasp of the undying as ali becomes stupid hard to kill with that heal steal every 4 seconds (in combat, but cmon, ur ali, u can always be in combat lol)
EDIT : was the ali support or top lane? (i was assuming top lane when i first replied)
He was bot lane. Hence why I would expect him to go Bond of Stone for tankiness and shit, or even Windspeaker since his heal is AoE and on a low CD.
aLawfulFalafel1 votesok sorry my bad, thats why after rereading i put the edit in, i thought i had mistaken it and i had XD feel free to dismiss what i had said
aLawfulFalafel1 votesyeah it really overshadows the other keystones, i mean, i love the concept of the keystones but they just dont seem balanced, with thunderlords being an overpowered keystone and that one where u get extra hp per siege minion killed is quite underpowered (20 minutes into a game and people have an extra 150 hp) its very lackluster next to a keystone that will rob you of that bonus hp because you were hit 3 times.... meanwhile yas gets garentee heals (on crits) and tanks can steal a good 60 - 130 hp every 4 seconds in combat
basically what im getting at is there are only 5 real choices for keystones (havent mentioned deathfire but yeah, deathfire) the way i see it and when everyone is choosing thunderlords (even over deathfire) it shows how powerful of a keystone it is when compared to most other keystones
Aeolian Melodies1 votesbasically what im getting at is there are only 5 real choices for keystones (havent mentioned deathfire but yeah, deathfire) the way i see it and when everyone is choosing thunderlords (even over deathfire) it shows how powerful of a keystone it is when compared to most other keystones
TL has a more visual impact than DF. TL also happens to be at the bottom of a tree that is, imo, superior to AP damage dealers than the other one.
aLawfulFalafel1 votesyeah visual effect is important for sure, the more someone can see something activating the easier it is to notice it being used and therefore the more it gets used, if there were no visual it most likely wouldve taken people longer to realize how strong TL is
also, i find the ferocity tree more appealing myself and i love the DFT keystone but i think thats a matter of preference and champs i tend to play / playstyle and not a matter of ferocity tree is better or anything like that
Renaille1 votes
Brendy Bear1 votesEveryone says Thunderlord's shouldn't be nerfed and it won't be. The question is however, how can we make players want to use a different keystone other than Thunderlord's on a champion without making it overpowered?
Abyssphere2 votes[{quoted}](name=Brendy Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3mXUzKn8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-24T21:42:42.084+0000)
Everyone says Thunderlord's shouldn't be nerfed and it won't be. The question is however, how can we make players want to use a different keystone other than Thunderlord's on a champion without making it overpowered?
By making Precision less ridiculously strong in comparison to the equivalent Ferocity masteries and making other keystones stand out more. They're doing both of those things on the PBE.
Brendy Bear1 votesEven then. If Thunderlord's is still the same as it was before-hand. I feel like I will still be inclined to use it on champions such as Lucian, Malphite, and Jax. An extra good amount of damage is too good to pass up on, and anything else that would be better than Thunderlord's would seem to be borderline op.
Abyssphere2 votes[{quoted}](name=Brendy Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3mXUzKn8,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T21:54:09.514+0000)
Even then. If Thunderlord's is still the same as it was before-hand. I feel like I will still be inclined to use it on champions such as Lucian, Malphite, and Jax. An extra good amount of damage is too good to pass up on, and anything else that would be better than Thunderlord's would seem to be borderline op.
The attitude that you just can't pass up on extra damage is just... wrong, though. People make decisions that don't result in maximum damage output all the time - Rylai's over Luden's, Zhonya's before Deathcap. ADCs picking Essence Reaver over Infinity Edge and tanks choosing Randuin's over Sunfire. When you choose Orianna over Katarina you are passing up on extra damage because you get something else you think is more worthwhile instead.
Masteries aren't any different. It's entirely possible for a utility-focused mastery to contribute more than a damage-focused one, just as it's possible for a utility-focused item or champion to contribute more than a damage-focused item/champion. I don't know how you'd come to the conclusion that a mastery would need to be overpowered to be more helpful than the "occasional additional burst" mastery, especially given that different champions synergise very differently with different masteries.
Obviously you'll still be inclined to use Thunderlord's as a mastery on a bunch of champions after the changes come through, you're supposed to do that with every keystone. But you shouldn't be using it on champions who don't use it well/work better with other ones because "You can't pass up on more damage" just doesn't work and even if it did, ignores the existence of multiple other masteries that increase your damage output.
Brendy Bear1 votesMy point was though that Thunderlord's is super strong now. We can see where players are getting terminated by champions with multiple Thunderlord's, (example being Blitzcrank support with thunderlord's etc.) I wouldn't nerf Thunderlord's directly, but I'd make a setting where a champion who's just been hit by Thunderlord's can't be hit by another Thunderlord's for 3-4 seconds. Just to get rid of the still present snowballing there may be.
