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@Riot Can we do something about Karma's Passive?

Warden Karma··9 votes·703 views

#Hello Summoners and Member Riots :)

Every now and then a Thread pops up on the Gameplay and Balance Board: A Suggestion to change or (re)move Karma’s Passive. Thus, the frequently asked change seems to has its reasons. Lets take a look why people feel that Karma’s Passive is ineffective or unsatisfying:

#Gathering Fire [Passive]:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png

  • The Passive is only supported by a part of her kit (only 3 out of 6 Abilities), these 3 Abilities will always be preferred above the other 3, especially “only” the Mantra’d Q.
  • This means that the Passive does not reward for making the right decisions for your Mantra or Abilities, instead you feel bad because you know that you lost lots of CDR from your Passive for casting your spells in the right order or for making the right decision (e.g.: Normal Combo for Karma is E-W-RQ, meaning you loose ~6-9 Seconds CDR or RE to save your Team).
  • Looking at the example above (and the points under it) it gets clear, that the Passive “counters” itself more or less. Since you only gain CDR from the Passive when Mantra is on Cooldown, you want to spam it as soon as possible out, whether the moment is right or the decision is.
  • This also means, that Karma has no Passive if Mantra is Off Cooldown.
  • In Addition to this, a Passive like this is normally moved to the Ability associated to it (here the Ult).
  • The Passive feels unsatisfying because you feel punished by casting E/RE (because it does not grant any CDR) + it has nearly nearly no visuals

In fact her Passive and Ultimate are created to go hand in hand, emphasizing Karma 's Mantra concept. Unfortunately, Karma's Kit seems not to support this; in contradiction its even "playing against" this "Harmony" forcing decisions often to be either doing the right Mantra or using the Passive at its best. This outlined especially after her "soft rework" some Patches ago, where the additional Damage was removed from RW and RE. I know that Karma’s Passive in fact is strong and somewhat satisfying too, but currently it also feels frustating due to the mentioned points.

RiotRepertoir was so kind and responded to my previous Thread (thank you very much) where I Suggested to give CDR on shielding/rooting and being able to save some CDR of the Passive.

{quoted}

Numbers aside, the important stuff here is... A Mantra bonus for your defensive spells and... A 'cooldown well' on R? Is the R cooldown just too long? What does this effect get us that a shorter cooldown wouldn't?

(Permalink: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ztpc34JN-riot-can-we-do-something-about-karmas-passive?comment=0002)

So I rethought of it and came up with this:

#Suggestion:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png

Note: This is not intended to be a plain buff to the Passive rather a shift of power/mechanics so Karma should get ~the same CDR, maybe just a little more in certain situations.

Reduces the Cooldown of Mantra by 2/2,5/3 -> 1,5/2,0/2,5 Seconds each time, Karma damages an enemy Champion with her Abilities (half for Autoattacks) or grants 1 Inner Ember if Mantra is available (Off Cooldown).

Also she gains 1_** Inner Ember**_ each time she shields an ally or herself. Karma can store a maximum of 4 Inner Embers.

Dealing Damage to an Enemy will **consume 1 charge of Inner Ember ** and reduce the Cooldown of Mantra by an additional 0,5/0,75/1,0 Seconds.

If no Ember is charged or consumed within 5 Seconds, they will dissolve.

  • This would prevent her Passive to be “abused” by an defensive Ability (E), but on the same time rewards using your E right by empowering the CDR from your aggressive Abilities (Q,W(AA)).
  • Grants better satisfication; I think it would feel "cool" if you know that your shield has some interaction with your Passive too.
  • Aka. Your defensive Abilities “empowers” the Passive for your aggressive Abilities.

Also can we make {champion:43}} 's ** Mantle of Decorum glow a bit **briefly when Progging her Passive and a bit brighter when it was “embered”? (not as bright as when Mantra’d (“white”) more like what the Color of the Decorum is but just glowing (For classic skin that would be a turquoise glow)

#Thoughts?

12 Comments

Maximum Morde3 votes

I'm still Salty from losing the Mantra W and E damage. GG at mantra diversity after that one. Now it's 99% Mantra Q or bust.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree, Karma would have been better off without those changes. They should have just changed the W root duration to 1-2s and she would have been fine.

Illiad2 votes

the only change id like is she could mantra tether an ally and slowely heal them over like 5 seconds [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] pro suppport activist

Miraweave2 votes

Karma is fine, Karma's passive is fine.

Really, she doesn't need any more uptime on Mantra, she's already pretty powerful.

Warden Karma2 votes

Its not about "buffing" her Passive like that she gains more CDR overall its about making it feel better. The Numbers of course have to be determined.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Winter,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3GPtBzxr,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-01-15T15:47:26.730+0000)

Its not about "buffing" her Passive like that she gains more CDR overall its about making it feel better. The Numbers of course have to be determined.

Eh, then you're just needlessly adding complexity. The ability is simple, does it's job, and is fairly strong. Why change it?

Warden Karma1 votes

Its mentioned in the OP. In short: her Passive should involve more of her Kit than only the damage.

But if it is your opinion that her Passive is as fine as it is, is ok, although i disagree.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

I leik this. I ned this.

Hupsis1 votes

I like your idea. I don't necessarily support this completely but I am open to various suggestions.

Basically the idea is to make her passive less about being aggressive all the time for maximum mantra efficiency and more about making mantra scale with overall activity and not only offensive plays. I think the numbers would have to be balanced so that she wouldn't be too efficient with mantra. She doesn't really need an actual buff to mantra but I'm ok with slight game play changes such as this.

It all comes down to whether Riot intends her to be a combat mage whose combat efficiency goes up as she only lands offensive abilities or whether they want her to benefit for being active in general. I think these kind of changes might change the overall feel of the champion.

Warden Karma1 votes

The thing is, I believe the more far away we go with our suggestions (e.g. moving current Passive to her Ultimate and give her a new one) the more unlikely it is to happen. So I try to stay as close to the "original" concept as I can.

Also the Idea behind this post is not necessary to buff the Passive but to make it feel more "round" and "satisfying", thus the power it offers for Mantra (CDR) is not raised but more shifted. I hope you got the Picture.

As RiotRepertoir commented that it is rather a not so good idea to give Karma CDR for using defensive spells, so I just took my previous concept and simplified it with an aggressive tone rather a defensive one. So I guess (as the Passive already is like that too) Karma's effiency is more tied to whether she hits her offense tools or not.

Hupsis1 votes

I like the idea of having to still hit offensive abilities to spend the embers. There could however be a time limit for consuming those embers or they will just become this passive thing you don't have to worry about.

Gathering embers should be interactive and not something that just happens on the background. If Karma just has to use spells when mantra is off cooldown to get embers or shield allies even if mantra is on cooldown and the embers didn't have a time restriction to use them, it could turn up to be just the same as reducing mantra cooldown itself (since Karma will most likely be using her spells constantly and constantly having embers available).

If there was a time restriction, it would pressure her to activate mantra and use spells before the ember timer runs out. I was thinking like the timer could be around 5 seconds and whenever she consumes an ember the timer would reset back to 5 seconds. Kinda the same thought as with TF when he has the pressure of auto attacking during having a selected card in hand from pick a card. It's a simple concept where the champion has to risk themselves for a reward.

Warden Karma1 votes

Good Idea^^

I added a 5 Second time span to use the embers (also there is a maximum of storabale embers). That hopefully prevents it to be too powerfull and emphasizes a risk-reward (aggressive play) style.

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