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So I was thinking about Annie and "A Twist of Fate".

For Carthage··94 votes·4,593 views

A lot of people's gripes right now about Annie is the counterplay to her basically boils down to staying the fuck out of her range if you're a squishy, or otherwise just CC'ing her from out of her range and then nuking her as fast as possible.

The big one currently is her ult, which is an instantaneous AoE nuking spell in an area. The idea of a delay has been thrown out, and I think that this can be used to her design advantage.

In this video back from 2013, it shows that the way Annie summons Tibbers is by throwing the stuffed bear, which then turns into the bear. What could be done is to implement that into the game - when Annie ults, she actually throws the stuffed Tibbers forward and upon arriving at the targeted area, out pops Tibbers.

Hell, I'd settle for giving the ult a bit of a bigger blast radius if it came with the ability for me to be able to respond to it. I think that'd be a fair trade.

104 Comments

Penta Penguin16 votes

I don't think you really understand what you're complaining about. The complaints are all about AOE instant stun nuke Tibbers, but people say simply "Annie is OP no counterplay". This is a 'cool' and neat-looknig idea, but if you nerf Tibbers, Annie loses her "one trick bear".

The majority of her power-budget is in that Tibbers. I think the bigger problem is that people and teams are just not respecting her power in games or missing the telegraph (You can see her stacks of the stun when you click on her, and it also has a visual floating around her). So many people just auto-pilot in this game, "group up", chase through the narrow jungle, and then bitch and moan when 4 people get stunned and nuked.

Annie could easily be "fixed" by creating a more apparent visual effect on her stun meter.

You could nerf down Tibbers and shift some power to the rest of her kit, but then that's yet another crutch-based design for people who refuse to have a challenging situation in their game.

For Carthage5 votes

I didn't say nerf Tibbers straight up. A delay would allow for people to be able to react while she'd be supplemented by a larger AoE so that it's not like the Veigar treatment where for a while you'd just sprint right through it. Nor does it have to be such a considerable delay that it'd announce itself like charging Sion's Q.

The Soulforged3 votes

To be fair, the Veigar problem only happened because the players have to walk into the thing to be stunned. For Annie, if the enemies stay still, she can still stun though.

Muted Summoner1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you really understand what you're complaining about. The complaints are all about AOE instant stun nuke Tibbers, but people say simply "Annie is OP no counterplay". This is a 'cool' and neat-looknig idea, but if you nerf Tibbers, Annie loses her "one trick bear".

The majority of her power-budget is in that Tibbers. I think the bigger problem is that people and teams are just not respecting her power in games or missing the telegraph (You can see her stacks of the stun when you click on her, and it also has a visual floating around her). So many people just auto-pilot in this game, "group up", chase through the narrow jungle, and then bitch and moan when 4 people get stunned and nuked.

Annie could easily be "fixed" by creating a more apparent visual effect on her stun meter.

You could nerf down Tibbers and shift some power to the rest of her kit, but then that's yet another crutch-based design for people who refuse to have a challenging situation in their game.

Looking at her stacks is a bit unreliable. because at 3 stacks you need to be wary cause all she needs to do is press E+Flash+R-Q-W. You are talking about god like reflex speed trying to flash her flash when she pops E. Guess what she still has her ult...and with sivir or Righteous Glory It makes it still possible for Annie to get you before you can escape. Annie isn't op but her ult has almost no counter play. Other than a Banshees Veil which is easily popped off with the right comp and requires a good amount of gold which may further decrease your odds of trading damage cause...you didn't get damage you got MR for a stun from a high damaging mid laner or a support.

Rinky Dinky16 votes

You people realize that if Riot gave Annie's ult a Delay and animation, she would have to be mega buffed right?

Edit: Better give Annie a knockback on Q as well, if we wanna stay true to the cinematic.

Leona can also block abilities when her W is activated.

And Rengar now also has Warwick's ult.

Edit: These boards are such a circlejerk

missinggrave26 votes

And Graves can knock autos out of the air with his smokescreen.

And Zyra can change the direction of her vines.

chipndip19 votes

And Graves can suicide himself! :D

Altricad7 votes

Report graves for feeding

Z465 votes

And Draven's autos are now skillshots. Being able to literally juggle axes off of your enemies' faces should take some more mechanical skill than we're seeing in current Draven play. We believe that this will separate the good Draven players from the great ones.

Buttigieg 202051 votes

And Nautilus takes up 90% of the screen and can only be killed by terrain falling on him.

Gunpoint8 votes

That I would like to see.

Z464 votes
  • Bɪɢ Bᴏᴏᴍ, Bɪɢ Iᴍᴘᴀᴄᴛ: Terrain can now be destroyed by ultimate abilities from melee range, and debris instantly kills everyone caught in the destruction radius.
Chaotic Reks3 votes
  • only happens if a Graves ults a wall
kile14723 votes

You mean like when they mega buffed Veigar when they gave his stun counterplay? Oh wait, they didn't.

sp4419 votes

Honestly, they vastly overestimated the usefulness of farming 2 creeps with one Q.

Nilok4 votes

Riot: "Want to farm your AP faster? By hitting two creeps, you can get more AP per spell cast and push out your lane so you are over extended with no mobility or reliable CC. Doesn't that sound great?"

sp4414 votes

Also you'll never get to put all that bonus AP to good use because your R's ratios were nerfed by 20% and you have no hope of hitting your W without stunning them with your E. Which you'll never do if your opponent doesn't have the reactionary skills of a dead sloth.

Chocolate Waifu13 votes

I enjoy the idea of Annie tossing her bear and losing the doll whilst Tibbers is out, although I feel adding a delay to her tossing it out would cause more of an issue rather than an issue that isn't there to begin with. Yes, it's an instant cast, and yeah, it does nuke the hell out of people. But that is what her ult is isn't it? You know, an ultimate move that is suppose to be powerful based on how a kit is presented.

I mean, the range of that ult is rather small, and it would be in all methods your fault to have gotten to close to her while her stun is up. There is no need for a delay on it, and if they attempted to add it, it would be messy trying to tweak her kit to get it to work right; especially since there is no real issue to begin with.

Vistha Kai2 votes

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/throne_of_lies_elf.gif

Chocolate Waifu1 votes

http://i.imgur.com/rFFryfg.jpg

SmokinSickStyle1 votes

600 base is for the cast, Tibber's initial burst is 290 range, that adds up to a potential 890 range.

Think of it like a Viktor lazor, the cast is short but the total range of the spell almost doubles.

Not so short when compared to most champs having barely any range at all.

Chocolate Waifu1 votes

Ssssshhh.. it's an ult... take it..

Vistha Kai1 votes

Sssshhh... Phoenix stance is under R, it should deal 50000 damage and have 1000 range.

Erockandroll13 votes

The problem is that no one really respects her Ult. And its a good chunk of her power budget. But reliable CC and high damage is a fair trade off for lack of mobility and range.

And Riot really can't remove the insta stun when her use is team engage (either mid or support) Cause that the only thing she's played for. And unlike Veigar, This is her Ult were talking about, She has a large laps of power when her ultimate is down. Where veigar could potentially insta stun every 18 seconds.

Her ult is key to her gameplay, if they reworked that, they would have to rework her entire kit.

For Carthage2 votes

I feel like a lot of us are forgetting that her stun can actually be chained rather easily with some CDR and her W still offers a wide AoE and can stun as well.

Not to mention that the delay would just be the amount of time it takes for the bear to fly through the air. That could honestly take like .5 seconds tops. You don't have to rework the entirety of her skillset for the slightest bit of opportunity for somebody to finally be able to flash away from Tibber's arrival. With the suggested tradeoff to that slight nerf being a larger entrance which would give her more power on teams trying to spread out.

It seems like a lot of people are just looking at the negatives of this instead of the added potential.

3TWarrior3 votes

except veigar, unlike annie, deletes anything in his range once he is properly farmed and if annie is focused, she will go down

Curling Veigar10 votes

{quoted}

except veigar, unlike annie, deletes anything in his range once he is properly farmed and if annie is focused, she will go down

anything if focused will go down...

3TWarrior3 votes

annie provides an instant but short stun, veigar makes it where his opponents have to stay in place, waste their escapes, fight him at a distance, or get deleted. So, unless the entire team focuses on ranged abilities, it is hard for them to delete veigar at his burst range, especially if the carry is dead or killed by the first set of abilities

Ace Access 2 votes

yes anything will go down if focused, some just are a bloody nightmare to take down

I played a game with a Darius where we had trouble taking him down 5v1 without losing 2 people and everyone else having less than 30% hp left,

Vistha Kai1 votes

Why would an ADC and a mage fight Darius in melee range? o.0

Ace Access 2 votes

we didn't, he just grabbed us and then shredded us

Billy VoHagen10 votes

Doesn't her Q knock Tryndamere back in that? :/

EverTokki6 votes

Then we should consider the length that annie throws the bear, and then another length that tibbers fly to. That would be approximately 8~9 teemometers.

For Carthage7 votes

I... I upvoted for Teemometers.

The rest of it was gibberish to me. All that mattered was Teemometers.

Kaipop3 votes

I'm an Annie main and as long as it was a short delay I think she could still be fine. She still can flash w for an instant stun and then follow up with Tibbers.

Ultra da boy3 votes

Why not just make it like Soraka's star call? The closer she casts it, the more instantaneous it is. While the further she casts it, the longer it takes to come out.

EDIT: This way if she wants to throw it to the back line of squishies, they have time to react. Otherwise if you're going to be a stupid ADC and position yourself close enough to Annie to where she can insta-stun you, then it's your fault

For Carthage1 votes

That was actually one of the alternatives I had in mind, but I didn't know how it would look with a thrown, transforming bear.

Collapser2 votes

Or maybe have her stun not be able to be on hold for the whole game. After her 4th spell usage, make her next ability stun as long as it's within 10 seconds or something and then disappear.

SomeLink4 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe have her stun not be able to be on hold for the whole game. After her 4th spell usage, make her next ability stun as long as it's within 10 seconds or something and then disappear.

Then you just hold the 3rd spell, use flash E, Ult.

Kosm1K2 votes

Seem's pretty reasonable, plus i'd love to see the transformation from cute and cuddly teddy bear to OMG giant flaming bear of doom stun

Mansana2 votes

Meddler thought it was a good idea 4 months ago.

For Carthage1 votes

Did not see this so thank you for bringing it up.

Mansana1 votes

It's ok. Not many people would have seen it because it's on the OCE boards. I sometimes go to other boards and see what's going on.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

I don't see what the problem is. People seem to forget that the stun is her passive, and it's in no way tied in with her ult. Her kit is clunky at best. A mid ranged farm tool, a melee range W, a shield with the sole purpose of charging your stun, and her ult which isn't even close to being the strongest aoe stun. Malphite also has a near-instant aoe knockup, Sejuani's ult is one of the best stuns in the game. Leona's delay is so small that her ult often hits everyone she targets with it. Amumu has an instant aoe stun with a wider range and galio has the same except it's a taunt.

Right now Annie only really hard counters melee champions. She harasses them when they're away, stuns them and is able to use her Q and W when they get too close. The biggest complaints I hear is about her AA range and targeted stun. Her AA range has been nerfed horribly and her targeted stun is shared with other champions. She's not the slightest bit overpowered it's just assassins complaining about her. Nerf her further and you buff assassins and defeat her only purpose as a mid laner.

BIAKaboose1 votes

Malphite ult you can flash or dash out of, same with Sejuani and Leona, Amumu's isn't a full stun, you can still act, just not move, and Galio is countered by having basically any amount of tenacity because then if you are ranged at all (Yes, even Urgot) you just walk out before he explodes. Annie has an instant cast, AOE nuke that can apply a stun so long as she has cast her shield a time or two before engaging and she deletes anything that isn't a full tank or MR stacking like a mofo. Honestly if they just made her ult not use her passive nobody would be bitching about it, but it does, so they are.

You also summed up Annie in one short sentence, her kit is clunky AT BEST. Annie needs a full kit rework at this point, or at the very least change her passive to something else/make it more noticeable, particularly for Frostfire skin, where when her shield is up it is almost impossible to see the graphic that her stun is up. The funny thing is, I don't even hate Annie, no problem playing against her personally, but when a large portion of the community has a problem then there is usually a problem. My main issue at the moment to be honest is with Leblanc, Cho'Gath and Garen's passive on ARAM specifically.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

actually, they buffed Galio ult so that it isn't affected by tenacity anymore.

BIAKaboose1 votes

Huh, wasn't aware of that, good to know.

FistOfSharkiesha3 votes

Like I said, the reason people complain about her is because the assassins are very vocal on the forums. Riot let's assassins faceroll everyone but the moment people realize Annie counters assassins, and really ONLY assassins, they want her nerfed. I can beat her with any mage in the game.

BIAKaboose1 votes

Yep, as I said, I don't have a huge problem with Annie besides her stun graphic on her Frostfire skin being borderline invisible when her shield is up. As for assassin's facerolling everyone, you've never seen a good tank or bruiser then, of course new Black Cleaver...

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