AP carries as Supports

Gibberwatt··17 votes·5,019 views

Disclaimer: I am only B5. My opinions are basically worthless, but I'm still gonna give them.

I have noticed lots of arguing about wether or not taking an ap carry bot lane as "support" is a good thing for the team. I think that sometimes, this can be a good thing, depending on several factors:

The Specific Champion: Some ap carries have a kit mostly based around damage, such as Leblanc or Akali or Katarina. These champs are pretty much useless unless they have massive amounts of ap, and can do the Deleting dance. I feel that these champs are rather sucky as supports, since they count on being fed, and leave the adc in a pile of sadness.

However, some ap carries, such as Morgana or Anivia or, to a leser extent, Annie, have a kit with a lot of cc or control. These carries, while they enjoy being fed, can survive just fine on less gold, and help take some of the damage dealing away from the adc (that saying, the best cc is death, can be carried over to, the second best cc is knocking out half their health). I have semi-carried quite a few bronzie games as support Anivia, either by feeding my adc, or getting fed myself.

The Team Comp: Sometimes, in my Bronzie games, I will discover myself in a situation where my entire team is ad based. This is bad, since the enemy can just stack armor, and be fine. In this case, a true support champ, building ap, wont do a whole lot. However, a support Annie, building cd and ap, can burn through the enemy ranks (pun intended) quite easily; and if the enemy builds a wee bit of mr to counter the "support" annie, they would have to sacrifice some armor, allowing your other allies to do more damage.

Being in Bronze: I'm not sure about the rest of you diamond/gold/master/whatever players, but sometimes, I get an adc who might not be playing to the best of their abilities. For example, recently I had a Lucian, who enjoyed sitting under turret and doing nothing. Not farming, not fighting, not anything. I believe he got lvl 6 as I was lvl 10 (I was his "support"). When I get an adc who doesn't play right, I have to pick up the slack for him, which is difficult with a Blitcrank.

Also, In my games, and probably Y'alls too, I generally have a lane that will feed it's butt off. I have to compensate for that.

For the TL:DR, there are certain AP carries with built in utility that can be ap supports. There are also situations when your team lacks ap, and you can forcd the enemy to split their defenses between ad/ap by building ap. Also, in a lot of lower elos, and maybe some higher ones too, there are some adc's that are a bit edgy in their skill level, and the support has to pick up the slack. Spoonfeeding ftw!

43 Comments

TTK Dreadnought21 votes

{quoted}

Disclaimer: I am only B5. My opinions are basically worthless, but I'm still gonna give them.

I started reading the post and right after i saw this i felt a reply was needed (i will continue reading after posting)

Just because you're a bronze 5, doesnt mean your opinions are basically worthless. It gives an insight as to what a B5 thinks about the game. Everyones opinion matters, from "low elo" to pros and solo players to team players.

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

Exactly, LOL is not DOTA, it's balanced for competitive as well as for all ELO's in dynamic queue, if there is some important balance issue in B5, it will be taken care of.

Eventually. Maybe.

TTK Dreadnought5 votes

Finished reading. Not a bad post. I enjoy playing an occasional APC as support, primarily Veigar

CarameI Frappe5 votes

{quoted}

I started reading the post and right after i saw this i felt a reply was needed (i will continue reading after posting)

Just because you're a bronze 5, doesnt mean your opinions are basically worthless. It gives an insight as to what a B5 thinks about the game. Everyones opinion matters, from "low elo" to pros and solo players to team players.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm Gold III, almost II but regardless of my status ... everyone has weight to their opinion. I'm not going to dismiss someone just because of their rank- that's a dick move. Rather, I will judge them based on how much evidence they provide, the research built in, along with constructive criticism and civil debating. So OP, I understand why you placed your rank here because people like degrading others for their ranked positions, but there's plenty of others whom value what you have to say based on what you actually say.

Gibberwatt5 votes

You people are nice people. I like you people.

Masala Chai2 votes

Unfortunately we also have players such as Dominick Destine who don't agree with you at all, speaking of which. Where is he? I haven't seen his face around.

CoffeeDave1 votes

Being B5 just means you're playing the game differently and your meta will be different. That's also a reason why your opinion is just as valid as everyone else.

Br4ndon3 votes

Only elitests and douche bags will say your opinion is worthless. Game knowledge doesnt require certain ranks. Mechanical skill, decision making and (majority) luck will cause you to have a higher rank.

Gibberwatt2 votes

Oh, but you know, there are a lot of douch bags

Aspynn3 votes

Honestly 90% of the time I play support (normals pretty much only) I go a mage support or like full ap support, and I would consider myself a support main. Season 4 I think I was Silver 3, haven't been ranked since then but my normals win rating or whatever is diamond, not sure if that means anything. I've always enjoyed picking off meta supports, and I bought everyone that I though could do well as a support to play them support. I've played lots of full ap supports, like Ahri Elise Fiddlesticks Gragas Jhin Galio Leblanc Lissandra Leona Maokai Nami Nautilus Orianna Rengar Sejuani Syndra TwistedFate Velkoz Xerath Ziggs (usually doesn't go well) andZac ZyraVeigar (extremely strong right now) etc. I chose a few actual supports here but whenever I play them I usually go full ap rather than a support-y build. Sometimes I build sightstone, sometimes I don't find it necessary. I get a lot of shit for this, and (sometimes) rightly so, but honestly I don't find it necessary to build sightstone every game. Especially when you're a fed full ap support that can nuke anyone that tries to gank you and easily 1v3. If you want to carry in the support role in a low elo, full damage supports allow for you to still have some utility for your team but also give you the ability to carry a team.

The Deckowner2 votes

AP jhin?

Aspynn1 votes

stack 3-5 traps land a w and you just oneshot someone.

The Deckowner1 votes

what about just play Teemo

Aspynn1 votes

not the same thing at all. I used to play AP Caitlyn before her rework fucked that sideways, AP Jhin is now the closest thing to it, and probably more legit.

SirGrey271 votes

Noo offence but I think going Full AP as a support is retarded especially in ranked (normal's tho GO for it), you're not there to get kills. Building Full AP will make you KS your adc all game, which will put him behind. Your job as a support is to have great sustain and to protect your adc. Also what I've noticed is that supports nowadays try to carry rather than peel.

Blue Moon Wolf3 votes

You forgot the Queen of "I'm a support... JK, I'm actually the carry :p" Lux

Gibberwatt1 votes

I just stick quotations around it. So, sometimes, I play "support" ;)

Anu3isII2 votes

Ahh, I still miss the times when you could play Nidalee "Support", get fed and tell everyone she works!

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

I still tend to use support Items on her (item 3504 item 3092 item 3001 item 3152 item 3050 item 3047 )

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Certain damage oriented AP carries can also be effective are supports, even in high, or at least semi-high ELO, like Velkoz or Brand. Right question is not "is that good for a team" because everybody knows this can go well, it's "why conventional supports are so weak they can be so easily replaced"?

zlumpy1 votes

Yeah, it's frustrating watching a brand come in bot lane and have that much poke AND mana sustain via masteries and such. Biggest problem with these guys is you have shut them down and keep them shut down because if they get back up again and team fights become 5v5 brawls they usually bring a heck of a lot more to kill speed than traditional supports. Obviously champs like brand and taric with big game changing ults can balance that out but some of the other supports cough sona cough just dont hold a candle to these guys later.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Certain damage oriented AP carries can also be effective are supports, even in high, or at least semi-high ELO, like Velkoz or Brand. Right question is not "is that good for a team" because everybody knows this can go well, it's "why conventional supports are so weak they can be so easily replaced"?

Janna is not easily replaced. Neither is Braum.

But, as far as ranked goes, it's because supports require coordination, and ranked lacks that. Damage dealing, however, is very direct. If we had comms and what-not, some supports would fall off in win rate.

Kodyack1 votes

high-damage supports are rather common, Vel'koz, brand, zyra, and Annie are the most prevalent.

Their only downside is they provide no protection to someone directly through a shield or heal, which is why they often lose to some poke or sustain supports that can avoid their all in.

It's simply an archetype, and adds diversity, a good thin in my opinion.

sheldonbunny1 votes

{quoted}

high-damage supports are rather common, Vel'koz, brand, zyra, and Annie are the most prevalent.

Their only downside is they provide no protection to someone directly through a shield or heal, which is why they often lose to some poke or sustain supports that can avoid their all in.

It's simply an archetype, and adds diversity, a good thin in my opinion.

Typically as Zyra I actually don't lose to that type. Can't comment on the other three champions, but as her i'm the one outpoking usually. In fact I usually intentionally pick her into a heal support lane. Soraka especially. Unless against an amazing one I usually shred them and their adc apart. It depends on how aggressive of a support you are honestly.

Kodyack1 votes

like i said, it depends; though a skilled soraka will make a zyra lane pretty pointless as nobody will take any significant damage.

Annie, by the way, is or at least was very, very, very commonly picked as support, last i knew she still was.

B00B001 votes

I like ahri, Leblanc, oriana and Azir as supports, that's just me though

(Azir with varus, cait, Jin )

Gibberwatt1 votes

I guess that kinda works. Good zoning, at least

Eagleheart1 votes

I made a post about this in another thread. Time to copy it! (I'm also B5.)

I think the biggest problem with people not wanting to play support is how straight up aggravating of an experience it can be.

Take, for example, the tank support vs mage support dilemma.

When I'm playing a tank support, I often feel like what I'm doing is unrewarding, and when I go in to try and secure a kill or two botlane, my ADC is usually sitting on their bum poking away at the minions, and it's only until after I lose a decent chunk of health that they pick up and start helping the fight. This usually ends with me having to turn and run in order to try and not die while my ADC promptly dies because they're now in range of the enemy laners. This whole situation could've been easily avoided if they had engaged with me rather than delaying until the fight was already lost.

The only tank support I can really play without having to worry about my ADC being incompetent is Braum because with Braum I am literally doing everything myself and I never need input or assistance from my ADC. If I'm playing someone like Blitz, Thresh, Leona, Malphite, Volibear, Tahm Kench, Taric, Nautilus, or J4, I have to have my ADC be on point and able to read and understand what I'm doing without me having to sit there and explain everything. A quick targeting ping should be all I need to convey the message of "I'm going to do everything I can to kill them dead. You need to help me." but more often that not it isn't, and then frustration happens.

When I play a mage support, on the other hand, I have a much more fulfilling gameplay experience. With champions like Xerath, Nidalee, Annie, and Vel'Koz I can constantly poke at the enemy laners and keep their health down to a minimum. With people like Soraka and Sona I can keep pumping my ADC with buffs and hope they live long enough. Plus, if I'm playing someone like Xerath, Annie, or Vel'Koz I could easily pick up the slack of my ADC by buying a few AP items, and since I put forth the time to build up a full page of scaling mana regen runes, past level 6 mana is no object and I can easily spam all day.

But every time I go and pick a more fun and more useful mage support, I'm harassed constantly into picking a tank support. When I do succumb to the whines of my team, I'm greeted with a boring and unrewarding game that usually ends in a loss with me carting around the most deaths on the team because nobody knows how to properly use a tank support, or a tank in general.

I'm going to be bold, and say that this is why a lot of people don't play support, or don't play it a lot, and it's also why queue times are long: Supports want to be useful, but they require the ADC and the rest of the team to be on point, and when they aren't they want to bring along a support that can pick up the slack, but since everyone wants a particular type of support, they can't even play who they want to play, or play who they KNOW will be better.

Oh, and everyone still thinks it's season 2, so I'm the only one warding.

Gibberwatt1 votes

You make some decent points, but I feel like blitz is fun.

Also, you know wards are usless. thats why no one buys them. :)

TTK Dreadnought1 votes

I hate doing solo support. i used to play a bunch of support pre-6 (tank supports) however, i ran into the same issues as you mentioned. I now main top/mid and only support if i'm on a premade in voice chat.

Evewynn1 votes

AP carry support is definitely usable, but takes a lot of worth. The kill potential between a solo lane and the support position is an ocean apart, meaning that you rely much on your innate CC rather than damage. The main difference occurs in late game, where build's catch up a bit. Can definitely see it if mid goes AD and too/Jung go tank.

Just keep in mind that you still need a sight stone, and spend a good amount of the game clearing wards. spooky ghosts is great but you can always combine your stone/gp items to make room for more slot efficient items.

Gibberwatt1 votes

Oh yeah, I always get the sightstone upgrade on my supp item. It leaves more room for my other support/ap items

The Deckowner1 votes

basically, if you have good utility you can be a support because you don't need much gold to function.

DON'T play ANY AP ASSASSIN SUPPORT.

PK Flunr1 votes

Xerath support OP Ya see, despite being at first sight a troll pick, he actually has some really good use as support. Pros

  1. Not CSing lets you focus more on poke
  2. Most items viable for support Xerath are pretty cheap (item 3092 item 3041 item 3165 item 3027 )
  3. E>W combo very useful for setting up kills
  4. Once you buy item 3116 , Q and R can be used for some sick secures, provided you don't accidentally steal the kills
  5. Enemy laners get away just barely? You always have your R to at least get your ADC an assist
  6. Super fun Cons
  7. Kill stealing is way too easy
  8. Early game sucks
  9. Slow and squishy
  10. Doesn't do much to tanks, and most tank supports give Xerath problems
  11. Really weird playstyle. You need to secure kills and peel for teammates, but due to the nature of Xerath himself, he's also still an AP carry and must backline and occasionally take kills himself
  12. Xerath support? Really? Note: I'm in provisionals
SirGrey271 votes

Noo offence but I think going Full AP as a support is retarded especially in ranked (normal's tho GO for it), you're not there to get kills. Building Full AP will make you KS your adc all game, which will put him behind. Your job as a support is to have great sustain and to protect your adc.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

It's funny because support LeBlanc was a pretty prominent trend a few seasons ago.

OneMustFall1 votes

I don't like any supp that isn't about trying to get their ADC fed/protecting them. Too many times you see these AP supps KS the ADC and then the ADC is weaker than they should be. If you want to do damage and get kills, don't play support. Play mid and top.

Gibberwatt3 votes

when I play ap support, I do try to get my adc fed. That is my primary goal to supporting. True, it is harder not to ks your adc, since hou have higher burst. However, I think the mindset makes the support, not the champion.

The benefit of the ap supp is that if your adc is less than stellar, it is possible to pick up the slack, whereas with a normal support, it would be much harder to carry him/her/it.

SirGrey271 votes

THANK YOU OMG PREACH. Ugggh I think going Full AP as a support is retarded especially in ranked (normal's tho/ GO for it), It's not there job to get kills. Building Full AP will make them KS their adc all game, which will tilt him. A supports job is to have great sustain and to protect the adc.

Llanite1 votes

The downside is that you need AP to function, which in turn won't leave gold from more utility-oriented items (i.e. Sightstone, Mikael)

Plus, AP mid has less raw stats by default, while supports usually have a lot of it (as they are not supposed to have a lot of gold). You end up more vulnerable to offensive matchups who take advantage of your weak early game.

SirGrey271 votes

Not true

Anu3isII1 votes

In general, AP carries can be good Supports, but, as you mentioned, most of them must have a significant amount of Utility to back-up their lack of gold.

I personally suggest Karma Morgana and Sona as middle ground "safe" AP Supports. They will always deal significant amounts of damage if you build for it and they will always have utility to protect a carry. You can build them traditionally or AP.

If you want to be a more defensive support with some damage,Nami tends to be a great option. Her damage is not as reliable as of the other ones, but she can keep up with them while having some other amazing advantages over them.

If you want to be a more aggressive AP Support with high amounts of damage, I recommend Annie and Zyra. With Annie, you have to get used to the Range of her abilities and positioning. Unlike Annie, Zyra doesn't really have a problem with her Range, but she has problems with landing her spell. Also, because she doesn't have any instant stun/knock airborne, she can be killed very fast if she is out of position.

Those are my preferences in general, so you don't take it as a "You must learn to play this!" and more like "Hey, this options seem pretty good, try them if you want and maybe one will become your favourite! :D".

Also, the fact that you are Bronze 5 doesn't really mean anything to me. You are a person, I am a person, I respect you as much as myself. If you struggle to rank up, it means that you just need more experience. When I first tried ranked, I was in Silver 4, and in the next season I got Platinum 5. I know some people will argue that there is no big difference, but I tell you, the games felt totally different from my perspective :D

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