Can we get a corpse explosion item/mastery?

i cant move wtf·Jan 22, 2018·1 votes·267 views

So that when you die your body explodes dealing damage. It could have interesting synergies with champions like as well as

9 Comments

JbelsJan 22, 20181 votes

Designing a champion around an ability that involves them dying is never a good idea. Sometimes it can work out with champions like Zac or Anivia, but fails miserably when it doesn't hit the mark (Like Kog'maw or Aatrox). I'm a Sion main, and I hate his passive. I think it's the worst part about him, and if I could trade it away I would.

There is a very fine line you have to walk when designing abilities that offer some kind of damage or whatever when you die. You REALLY don't want to encourage playstyles that involve repeatedly diving in and dying. That is a burden for that player's team, and counterintuitive for the team killing that player at the same time.

You have to take great care when you consider how it would feel to play against it. Let's say you get into a really intense 1v1 where the matchup is entirely skill based, and you both get really low. You manage to dodge the last ability that would have managed to kill you, and you go in for the kill. You manage to get he kill!....only for their corpse to explode, killing you as well? So they got free gold for you outplaying them in a matchup entirely about skill? This would piss players off. I know it would piss me off. You NEVER discourage people from playing more aggressively by making the result of correctly timed aggression counterintuitive .

You probably won't see a rune like this, and if you do, it will probably never be taken because of the heavy restraints it will have placed on it

i cant move wtfJan 22, 20181 votes

I'm the complete opposite. I think there's many ways this could be implemented so it doesn't feel bad and is still skill based. For one there could be a significant cooldown on the item/rune so it can't be spammed. Another could be a rhythmic cooldown where it's up only 10 seconds of each minute. Or it could require blood charges that you accumulate on kills/assists before it gets activated.

JbelsJan 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az639UM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-22T19:37:35.282+0000)

I'm the complete opposite. I think there's many ways this could be implemented so it doesn't feel bad and is still skill based. For one there could be a significant cooldown on the item/rune so it can't be spammed. Another could be a rhythmic cooldown where it's up only 10 seconds of each minute. Or it could require blood charges that you accumulate on kills/assists before it gets activated.

and in implementing any of those restrictions, you've already made it too situational to use. Zac prefers the extra tankiness and gank damage from Aftershock, Anivia prefers damage out of the Sorcery tree. Kog wouldn't be caught dead without Lethal Tempo. Zilean is usually taken for his ability to save OTHERS from dying, so having a corpse explosion on himself isn't as useful as just taking meteor and getting free damage off of stuns for laning phase. Same deal with Karthus getting free damage from meteor after hitting a Q on somebody he slows with his wall.

Aatrox needs press the attack because he's an auto attacker, Sion is a tank that either needs to win lane early with meteor, or go Grasp/Aftershock and pray for a good mid game. There just isn't really a champion with a death passive that could work well with a situational ability that requires them to die to get anything out of it

i cant move wtfJan 22, 20181 votes

I think I'm seeing now your approach to how this game should be designed. You think every champion should be played and only be viable in one way and have one item path. On that point I disagree and I think diversity and options make the game more fun and creative. I think there's tradeoffs to both design philosophies and neither one is objectively right but my tastes are different.

JbelsJan 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az639UM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-22T21:10:38.496+0000)

I think I'm seeing now your approach to how this game should be designed. You think every champion should be played and only be viable in one way and have one item path. On that point I disagree and I think diversity and options make the game more fun and creative. I think there's tradeoffs to both design philosophies and neither one is objectively right but my tastes are different.

That's not it at all. League has gotten to a point where that is RIOT'S design philosophy. I don't profess to be a game designer, but I'm pretty familiar with the do's and don'ts of game design. Giving a character an ability that revolves around dying is not an unworkable design. Diablo 3 has plenty of abilities that pertain to dying (albeit most of them involve keeping you from dying). One of them I can think of does what you describe, create a giant explosion upon death. And that ability works for Diablo 3.

That ability does not work for League. Why? Because in Diablo 3, dying is an inconsequential thing. There's no harsh penalty for dying in Diablo 3 (unless you're grinding for Greater Rift times, at which point dying is a Rift killer). But in League, dying is EVERYTHING, specifically NOT dying. Dying in League presents many harsh punishments. You miss CS, you give up pressure in your lane, you give gold to the enemy team, which they can then use to snowball their advantage. You give up EXP. You might even give up your tower.

Because of these facts, there are not a lot of competitive players who will look at a rune/ability that you are describing and think "This would be so useful". They'll look at it and go, "The entire object is to not die, so why take this when I could have a rune that does stuff for me when I'm alive?"

i cant move wtfJan 24, 20181 votes

Again this boils down to a difference of taste. Professing to "know" game design suggests some arrogance on your part as that's not an argument but an appeal to authority which you conveniently ascribe to yourself. It seems we've reached an impasse here as you're now suggesting I'm trying to revolve an entire playstyle around dying instead of just having it be an extra tool for a champion to consider. This type of tactic is known as a "straw man" which means to exaggerates one's point to a ridiculous extreme in an attempt to discredit it and is an uncharitable way to have a discussion with someone. Sorry to veer the conversation into a meta-analysis of the arguments themselves but at this point I think it serves the discussion more than would restating my original points that you could have considered charitably in the first place.

JbelsJan 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=i cant move wtf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az639UM,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T21:27:45.117+0000)

Again this boils down to a difference of taste. Professing to "know" game design suggests some arrogance on your part as that's not an argument but an appeal to authority which you conveniently ascribe to yourself. It seems we've reached an impasse here as you're now suggesting I'm trying to revolve an entire playstyle around dying instead of just having it be an extra tool for a champion to consider. This type of tactic is known as a "straw man" which means to exaggerates one's point to a ridiculous extreme in an attempt to discredit it and is an uncharitable way to have a discussion with someone. Sorry to veer the conversation into a meta-analysis of the arguments themselves but at this point I think it serves the discussion more than would restating my original points that you could have considered charitably in the first place.

You're making an argument out of something that isn't there... I didn't try to discredit you, I never claimed to be an authority on Game Design. I only said that I know somewhat the things that you do and don't do in game design. Never once did I straw man, which leads me to believe you either misread what I wrote, or feel threatened intellectually to the point that you feel the need to bring up logical fallacies that aren't there. I gave my opinion on why a Corpse Explosion wouldn't be a healthy design for League, you gave counterpoints, I gave counter counterpoints. That's all.

i cant move wtfJan 26, 20181 votes

There was nothing threatening about your points but maybe I was a bit harsh on my criticism of your post. You certainly have considerably more intellectual integrity than 99% of the posters on these boards and I do believe you at least believe what you're saying. That said I don't think there's anything more we can discuss. If you don't recognize that a mechanic like this can be nerfed/buffed to a point where it doesn't encourage a "dying playstyle" but also is strong enough to meaningfully alter the gameplay of the player using it, then I don't see where else this can go. Neither of us have our own League Of Legends game with millions of players where we could test our theories by implementing a version of this and seeing how it plays out. It's not something that will ever be reconciled through any amount of discussion and I believe it's a crucial point for any interesting discussion to proceed.

KaìjuJan 22, 20181 votes

To be fair, Kog'Maw's passive sucks ass because it has to. He is one of the strongest champions in the game in pre damage output. His ability to mow down a tank without moving before they reach him makes him extrenly scary to deal with later, so to compensate his passive is the worst part of his kit. If he had any kind of useful passive while alive, he would actually be broken, rather than just being a walking death machine like he is now. But I agree to a degree, making a champion with the sole intention of dying to use their core spell is asking for a bad time. They would either feed trying to do anything, or just lose their team so much pressure because of death timers.