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MadStoneCoat jungling

GundayMonday··3 votes·658 views

Came across something that seems pretty ridiculous and wanted to share. Just got promoted to Plat II playing item 3106 item 1080 item 3205 Sejuani . For whatever reason, if you invest your first ~2k of gold into this item path, you have infinite sustain in the jungle, and clear ridiculously fast. All the jungle passives merge together so that you're dealing a ton of damage and HEALING a considerable amount of hp/mana from each camp. Makes it so a champ like Sejuani that doesn't necessarily need items to play well, can get items and play well very fast.

Here are my two promo games as proof of concept: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1478050189/39991220 http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1478076780/39991220

Look at the baron timers on that second game. That first 22 min baron was a two man sneak XD.

Anyway, not saying this is an optimal strategy all the time, but I haven't seen anyone else do it, and was curious what other people thought. Any other junglers this would be good on? Nautilus Hecarim maybe?

37 Comments

The5lacker3 votes

This is completely and utterly ludicrous.

I love it.

GundayMonday1 votes

XD right?

Try it out and let me know what you think. I played a random team builder game just to see, and was super surprised when it got rid of a lot of Sejuani 's early game weaknesses.

Sunfield1 votes

The issue is, early game weakness occurs before you get to buy items. After buying coat it gets only easier

GundayMonday1 votes

Definitely, but that's the thing. Champs like Sejuani don't want to fight early anyway. They are strongest at level 18. So why not spend the early game getting to level 18 as quickly as possible, while also getting dragon gold for your team whenever the enemy jungler shows top? That's my thinking. Then sell the extra jungle items off to get a real build late game after they've paid for themselves.

Sunfield1 votes

Its not an optimal build, but whatever floats your boat

ChickenWrap1 votes

Why upgrade to Fearl instead of Ancient Golem or Spirit Elder? Sej scales way better with AP and HP than via auto-attacking.

GundayMonday2 votes

Depends on the game, my teammates, and what our battle plan is. Sej can effectively use every jungle item except item 3209 . I'll give you a quick breakdown to explain, feel free to disagree and point out flaws in my logic :-)

item 3207 - Hands down best item on Sejuani if your team needs a tank. The % bonus health combined with %hp runes makes it so you can hit 6k+hp if you get the right setup. I choose this if my team seems competent in pregame chat and if we have enough damage in our comp.

item 3206 - Good item on Sejuani if you want to go the AP caster route and build her like Amumu . Makes all of her abilities hit a little harder and offers good sustain. I don't like it on Sejuani for a couple of reasons though:

  1. If the enemy jungler is good, he will invade you early. Hard to farm the stacks on this if your jungle is lit up with enemy wards.
  2. Sejuani doesn't have ginormous ability power ratios, so she doesn't get as much from this item as other items.
  3. Other builds are generally better.

item 3160 - Great item on Sejuani if you know how to chain her abilities together. I buy this if my team doesn't need a tank (we already have one, or the enemy team is all squishy), and if my mid tower is still standing ~10mins. If I have control of my jungle, I can go for a item 3160 and easily farm stacks. Once I get that bad boy, I can chain feral hits with a combo like Auto Attack -> Q -> Auto Attack -> W to apply 4 quick on hit effects from the item. This means that I can solo dragon very quickly. This means that I can solo Baron with 4 items and the right setup. This means that I can jump on an enemy adc and duel them at all points in the game. I pick this item and build path to carry in solo queue :)

Another thing that's cool about this build is that you have options. Mid tower gone at 10 mins? Your top lane Maokai went AP and now your team needs a tank? Go item 3207 > item 3160 . No problem, not a big deal.

Anyway, that's my thought process. I've played more Sejuani games than almost anyone out there, so let me know if you have more questions.

Stacona1 votes

Spirit Stone does not amplify Quill Coat's damage because it deals True Damage for the thorns effect- regardless of this buying more than one jungle item is extremely gold ineffcient and is not needed on anyone, just buy the jungle item that is most efficient for said champion you are playing, like auto attackers get madreds, damage dealers get spirit line, and tanks buy quill coat- do NOT ever over lap any of these items because it will do nothing but put you behind

GundayMonday1 votes

Are you sure? If you read the passives, it looks like it amplifies the damage done. FEELS like it increases the damage done too. Link to proof? I'll test this out later too if you don't know off the top of your head.

From a gold efficiency standpoint, I disagree with you. These three items let me solo dragon pretty easily. One dragon justifies the gold. Quill coat gives me a free ward, so if I ward 10 times during a game, then it pays for itself. And since Sej is pretty mana hungry, all of them combined give me A TON of sustain in the jungle. Definitely agree that it delays my late game build a little, but works really well against a non-invade jungler like Amumu . Not saying I'm right or wrong, just want to see everyone's thoughts :)

Stacona1 votes

Spirit Stone passive doesn't amplify true damage, quill coat cannot execute so it cannot steal blue from your mid lane and deals true damage so it cannot be exploited with spirit stone and you only need one jungle item to clear fast as long as you pick the correct item for your champions, quill coat for tanks, spirit store for damage dealers, madreds for AAers--- to get your gold value back from more than one jungle item you need to kill dragon 8 times (games don't last long enough for even 5-6 dragons even with complexity games) for 3 items you need to kill dragon at least 12 times (again you are looking at a maximum of 6 dragons, and that is in hour long games where dragon doesn't even matter at that point) --- so multiple jungle items do nothing but put you behind the entire game and delays your build for REAL items because PvE stats doesn't help you in PvP

GundayMonday2 votes

Okay cool. Thanks for explaining the quill coat butcher interaction. Still going to experiment on my own to double check. Trust but verify :-)

Now on the gold efficiency, I completely disagree. Let's break it down:

item 3106 - 775g item 1080 - 700g item 3205 - 700g

Add those together and you get 2175g.

For combat stats you have: 20 armor - 400g 15% attack speed - 450g

That brings the cost down to 1325 gold.

Then you have the quill coat ward passive which gives you a free 75g ward every time you use it. If I use that ~10 times in a game, which I often do, it pays for itself just from the ward passive.

Let's say you ignore all the extra jungle stats though. Even though they give ridiculous sustain and mana regen while letting you fly through your jungle. We then need to justify 1325g.

One dragon = 180 (+ 10 / level) (+ 25)g for you and your teammates (the 25 just for whoever last hits it). If the dragon is level 2, that means an early dragon gets your team ~1000g. That means the 3 jungle items need to give ~325g of stats to be considered worth if this nets you the early dragon. Or you use the quill coat ward 4 times.

It's a team game, so you gotta think about team gold. See what I mean?

Stacona1 votes

cloth armour and a dagger does not help you win any fights or duals- that being said, the items by themselves and their upgrades are very gold efficient, as soon as you get more than one item you just made the items EXTREMELY gold inefficient- gold is NOT a combat stat so if you have a bunch of useless items you lose the game unless you can get over 12 dragons (impossible btw) yes league is a team game which is why you dont want to put your team in a 4v5 cause you are a useless pile of shit because of your inefficient troll build that is only good for farming the jungle which you only need one of those items to efficiently and quickly farm the jungle

GundayMonday1 votes

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Stacona1 votes

Okay then...

GundayMonday1 votes

Just confirmed that spirit stone doesn't boost quill coat passive dmg by 20%. It does boost bladed armor mastery though.

Stacona1 votes

That is a bug then, you should tell Riot about it because that shouldn't happen, True Damage should not get amplified

MrBuffington1 votes

I like the idea, but judging from the stats between junglers, I didn't see that there was such a huge discrepancy between jungle minions slain to warrant buying three jungle items. Maybe I'm just reading the stats wrong?

GundayMonday1 votes

Those games were my first times trying it in ranked. I used it to get a huge advantage early (madstone at 5 mins), and then I still gank for my team and control objectives like dragon. Probably could have been higher farm discrepancy, but I like to make sure my lanes are winning when I jungle :)

Plus, this build isn't exactly for farm on Sej. She has pretty high mana costs, so I really only have ~3-4 rotations of abilities if I land a few full combos. This makes it so I can hit w once, and replenish half my mana sitting in the wraith creeps, which then lets me stay in the jungle longer and be more useful. If that makes sense.

MrBuffington1 votes

O rite, Sej isn't really a hard farming jungles, is she, haha, thanks!

12tales1 votes

I could only see this being a potentially useful build on shit like jungle Udyr or Shyvana whose entire job is to power farm the other guy's jungle. I don't think the increased gold income on its own could justify the number of resources you'd have to sink into that build on a normal jungler, though.

GundayMonday1 votes

Definitely agree with you. I get this so that I can invade the enemy jungler, clear his camps instantly, leave. Or so that I can solo dragon in 10s. More about objective control over the increase in gold income. Plus, I'll sell the extra jungle items for real items if it gets to be late game.

FyshinaTux1 votes

In all honesty, I'm a warding fiend (usually) and I generally like getting Sightstone when I jungle. This leaves no room for Quill Coat, which sucks because that passive is awesome while jungling. :(

I think they need to remove the ward from Quill Coat, it doesn't make much sense.

GundayMonday2 votes

I love the quill coat ward. I like this build because I get two free wards from item 3160 item 3205 , and then another from my item 3340 . Check out my warding stats in those games. Saves a lot of gold when I have free wards up every 3 mins to control objectives to get more gold to help my team to win the game :)

FyshinaTux1 votes

A Jungler without a Sweeping lens isn't a good idea from my understanding. Controlling the vision game isn't JUST about you getting vision, it's also about clearing theirs.

GundayMonday1 votes

Definitely! I upgrade to a red sweeper once I have those two ward items. Check out my games if you don't believe me :-)

FyshinaTux1 votes

I'm not saying you don't, I just prefer the Sightstone for warding since it's only one slot, instead of two jungler items for 2 slots, which CAN be detrimental on a champion like Sejuani when you NEED to get tanky for the late-game teamfights.

GundayMonday1 votes

Why do you "need" to get tanky? My sej build has 4k hp and 100+ armor/mr.

Sunfield1 votes

Madstone alone is an overkill on anyone but udyr.

This... what?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Madstone diana. Is a thing. I think.

Sunfield1 votes

I'm not seeing it tbh

Hyrum Graff1 votes

What part don't you see?

  • Diana's clear is slow if she doesn't use abilities, but super fast if she does.
  • Diana jungle fits in the meta better as a bruiser than an assassin
    • This is because Wraiths has this weird dual identity where one half says "Gank!" and the other half says "Farm!" So if Diana builds assassin, she doesn't get AP until later, so she can't gank very well, and if she does gank, she doesn't get that AP until later.
  • Madstone lets diana clear camps godly fast (yes, faster than udyr)
  • Madstone lets diana sustain in the jungle (especially mana) by AAing, which she can't normally do until her stinger and stone.
  • Madstone + AS diana gives her pretty good dps, especially for splitting/pushing towers. Dat Passive.
Sunfield1 votes

Sounds interesting. I'd love to see it in a game

Hyrum Graff1 votes

You're EU and I'm NA, but if you have a smurf over here I could queue up with you (not sure how effective it'll be at lower levels, hence wanting to play on my L30).

Or maybe I'll record a game and I can send it your way.

Sunfield1 votes

Actually I'll try it out myself, It will be easier and more insightfull for me. But thanks for the offer

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Also, a note: You don't have to do it this way, but I like to do the following jungle route. You don't need to do (purple side only), even if you are on purple side:

  • Golems (purple side only: smiteless)
  • (purple side only) wight (smite)
  • Wolves
  • drop my trinket ward at red
  • Wraiths (smite)
  • Golems
  • Lizard elder (smite)
  • Wraiths (will respawn just as you get there)
  • Wolves (smite optional)
  • Wight if I have enough hp/mana (smite, if I didn't use it on wolves)
  • Back

You can insert a gank any time after Red Buff.

With this route, you'll back with enough gold for a spirit stone, boots, pots, and (if you did wight) a pink ward (especially if you got a successful gank). You should also be the same level as top lane.

If my lanes are all pushing and can't be ganked, sometimes I'll get my 2nd machete instead of boots.

GundayMonday1 votes

I could see that. Your first clear is going to be really really rough though.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Actually, this hasn't been my experience; I've found it's no rougher than it would be as Diana jungle normally is.

  • Start w, max w and q evenly
  • Build spirit stone first
  • Get madreds as soon as you can

When Diana has blue buff, her clear is godly (though without madstone she can run oom even with blue).

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