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AD Mids Counter AP Mids Just Solely Off Items

King Odin··112 votes·9,858 views

item 3157 +45 armor +100 ability power 3500 Gold Zhonya's Hourglass is 87.86% gold efficient without its active. UNIQUE – STASIS: Put yourself in Stasis icon stasis for 2.5 seconds, rendering yourself untargetable and invulnerable for the duration, but also unable to move, attack, cast spells, or use items during this time. 90 second cooldown.

item 3139 +35 magic resistance +75 attack damage +10% life steal 3700 Gold Mercurial Scimitar is 98.1% gold efficient. UNIQUE – QUICKSILVER: Removes all debuffs from your champion and grants +50% movement speed for 1 second. 90 second cooldown.

item 3156 +50 magic resistance +55 attack damage +10 armor pen 3250 Gold Maw of Malmortius is 99.23% gold efficient without its passive. Maw of Malmortius' gold efficiency increases to 138.46% when taking magic damage below 30% maximum health. Passive Upon taking magic damage that would reduce maximum health below 30%, grants LIFELINE and LIFEGRIP. (90 second cooldown.) UNIQUE – LIFELINE: Grants a shield that absorbs 300 (+ 100% bonus magic resistance) magic damage for 5 seconds. UNIQUE – LIFEGRIP: Grants +25% attack speed, +10% spell vamp and +10% life steal until out-of-combat.

Mages forced into rushing Zhonya's have to sacrifice CDR and Mana regen as well Seeker's Armguard is 77.92% gold efficient with no stacks. Its gold efficiency increases by 1.74% per stack, becoming gold efficient after thirteen stacks and reaching 130.1% gold efficiency at maximum stacks.

This means that their early game versus and AD champion is somewhat bad considering that Hexdrinker base stats are 102.31% gold efficient. When taking magic damage below 30% Maximum Health Hexdrinker gold efficiency gets increased up to 159.77%.

Just purely off items mages tend to have a lot less power and have to rely on hoping that the AD laner messes up.

190 Comments

The Poetic Zed20 votes

Just a thought here, i don't have the actual math, but aren't most ap mids supposed to scale into late-game monsters? I know Hexdrinker is really strong in lane, but it falls off later, whereas zhonyas is much stronger (in a full build, i acknowledge that rushing it can reduce your damage output and isn't gold efficient early game) in the late game. Whereas AD midlaners tend to be stronger in the early game, but tradeoff for not being able to nuke the mage later on (assuming both are of equal skill level). So yeah AP champs get the short stick for laning, but take the bazooka over the pistol in late game (i know there's exceptions, this is more of a general thing). I could be wrong of course, but that's just my thoughts on it.

BluePolarizer47 votes

AP mids are strongest mid to mid/late game. Their damage scales linearly (flat AP) while AD autoattacker damage scales multiplicatively, but since most melees have to build at least 1 defensive item and can't afford to build crit, the only ones who actually truly scale multiplicatively are ADCs. A late game ADC is doing the damage equivalent of a Lux ult to one person every 0.5 seconds. If they're Jinx, they're doing a regular Lux ult every 0.5 seconds.

In super late game where everyone is 6 slotted it's 4 supports + ADC.

Joe Dredd6 votes

A late game ADC is doing the damage equivalent of a Lux ult to one person every 0.5 seconds. If they're Jinx, they're doing a regular Lux ult every 0.5 seconds.

what, is lux 1/8?

BluePolarizer11 votes

A Jinx can crit for 1200 damage late game. You need 950 AP for Lux ult to deal the same damage. Yes she will have higher damage due to lower base MR but 950 AP is hardly realistic without Mejais.

ZeeWolfZ6 votes

I can't come close to 900AP+ this season. At best I am sitting at 650 fully itemized vs 940 season 5. Retarded.

Halo1 votes

How the fck is that possible? I think ur talking complete bollox right now.

They buffed some AP items AP and also increased the % increase from Rabadons. Its probably because u itemize differently or just talk out of your ass. Even if they nerfed a few ap items that should not have led to a ca 300 ap drop. maybe a 70 ap drop but no more.

IGotScuttleCrabs6 votes

My problem when I play as an Ap Mage is I barely can get a Rabadons. Gotta get a mana item and usually an abysal or hourglass first. But typically those are my first 3 items with boots. If it's a safe/easy lane I might opt for ludens or the spooky mask. But realistically, Deathcap isn't bought till 4-6th item. And by then the game is probably over. And this is mid-low elo. The higher the elo the faster the game ends so they have an even smaller chance to reach a deathcap.

Spizzle900013 votes

#Reduce AP item costs 2k16

AninLegions7774 votes

Then watch every Malz, Ahri and LB blow up the game. Then you guys will be the same ones saying, "OMG! AP Mids are so OP. Rito nerf plz"

MudintheWater12 votes

Seriously Maw is the most fucking annoying item. When you're carrying as a midlaner you know you're fucked when 25m into the game you look at their team everyone is building it. Might as well give up.

Meanwhile hourglass is a double-edged sword that is as likely to get you killed as it is to actually help.

FuntaC12 votes

This is why there is so much hate for the snowball meta. There are too many champions balanced around a 30m+ game. Their scaling is slightly hyperbolic up to whenever the target time is. The problem is that item strength occurs less gradually with expensive items, and champions are less likely to get the gold necessary to keep up with the demand of their power curve in a snowball meta. One negative effect is that AP starved mages buy item 3089 too early, which makes them more vulnerable.

Face it. True mages are out. Only the assassin-like casters are viable season 6 - like LeBlanc.

Gunslinger7447 votes

Face it. True mages are out. Only the assassin-like casters are viable season 6 - like LeBlanc.

Well, that depends. What's your definition of a "true mage"? A lot of the mages in LoL are heavy burst mages. And in my opinion the line between mage and assassin has blurred heavily over the years.

Take Vel'koz for example. The sheer burst that can come out of The Eye is arguably comparable to LeBlanc's, the difference being that it's all skillshots and it happens from range. So while the delivery is different, the payload is the same. Yet he is what I would call a mage, while Leblanc is still an assassin.

I wouldn't say mages are gone, but the lean towards "whoever bursts first wins" is unhealthy as shown several times before season 6. But rito never learns.

Shiyo Kozuki12 votes

Items ARE why AD's are so strong right now and AP's in general are garbage. AD itemization is so good and strong while AP items cost infinite gold for no reason and are horribly itemized.

WhatAGeinius3 votes

Oh, another person pushing the "ap mids are so weak" narrative.

Knoyle3 votes

inb4 all you've seen is Chogath mid.

WhatAGeinius4 votes

It's simply grating to see people (mostly people who play AP midlaners, surprise surprise) continue to complain that AP is so weak when that blatantly isn't true. Mages are still dominant despite their items supposedly being "garbage" (which is also a huge exaggeration) because they inherently have a huge impact on any game they're in simply by merit of being mages.

Knoyle2 votes

I think people are mainly just upset that a lot of the items got changed and the AP items seem to have gotten the raw end.

AninLegions7773 votes

Infinite gold? Lool. Let's do this: item 3142 - 3200g while item 3165 - 2550g (gold cos might actually go down to 2450g) item 3072 - 3700g while item 3089 - 3800g item 3071 - 3500g while item 3285 - 3200g item 3156 - 3250g while item 3157 - 3500g item 3074 - 3500g while item 3116 - 3200g item 3036 - 2700g while item 3135 - 2650g item 3139 - 3700g while item 3003 - 3100g

Total difference in cost between items = 1550g

Now, I know that it's not possible to build all these items but take your pick and I guarantee you that the AD item costs combined will always be more than AP item costs. So you are wrong by saying AP items cost "infinite gold" (which I'm guessing means "AP items are very expensive"). I may agree with the itemization but once completed, AP items have more power than AD items. Take LB for example. After Deathcap or Even Morellonomicon, she's a beast and will likely oneshot you. Malz after RoA can do the same. Veigar....Need I say more? AP items and champs are strong. Stop trying to make them seem weak.

Yrzen8 votes

What are these comparisons even

I don't understand them, why is item 3089 being compared to item 3072 instead of item 3031? Why is item 3285 being compared to item 3071 instead of item 3087? Why is item 3003/item 3040 being compared to item 3139 instead of item 3004/item 3042? What does Youmuu's and Morello's have to do with each other? Rylai's and Hydra?

Most AD and AP items don't have direct equivalents, so you can't really compare most of them to each other properly. That being said, If AD items are so much weaker than AP items, why is an ad Marksman a mandatory role in every viable team composition while mages can be completely replaced by any form of AP damage merely to discourage armor stacking?

AninLegions7771 votes

These were not mean to be comparison between items. It was meant to be comparison between some item costs and they weren't meant to be accurate. I also used the most expensive of both AD and AP items to make it more understandable. So the first part of your comment is dealt with.

Now on to your second part. I believe we are talking about TRUE mages which means mid lane mages. Having this in mind, Marksmen aren't supposed to be brought up. But just for fun, I'll speak on it. One, I never said AD items were so much weaker. I only said they have more power, ie stats. Two, marksmen are mandatory because they are like the AD version of mages damage wise. You say jinx can crit 1200 in one attack, I say Lux can kill 2 squishies in one complete rotation. You say Lucian ult can deal 1k dmg at max rank, I say veigar ult can deal 1.9k dmg. So they both deal dmg but marksmen are mostly restricted to one target whereas mages have AoE spells, AoE ults and so on. They don't give any chance for reaction. Also, it would be smart to not have a mage on your team. Just means your burst potential is going to be reduced drastically.

Yrzen2 votes
  1. These statements put all mages and adcs into a single mold. I thoroughly disagree with these assessments. You compare damages using Veigar's ult, which is a hallmark of cherry-picking, while also saying that Mages are multi-target and Marksman aren't when Miss Fortune, Jinx, Sivir, (etc) Runaan's and Rageblade all exist.
  2. You are quoting others and using it to misrepresent my arguments.
  3. There are many ways to have burst without mages, especially since the op is primarily comparing mages to AD fighters and assassins.
  4. Just because you compared the items on a metric of highest price doesn't mean that the comparisons are reasonable. If AP champions got more expensive items to purchase, that would surely be a buff, not a nerf, so it's not like the presence of more expensive AD items makes them worse. The items you picked out aren't even on a metric of highest price either, as there are many more expensive items on both sides, like Trinity Force, Infinity Edge, Lichbane and Liandry's.

If you wanted to make fair comparisons, you would have to compare and contrast the efficiency of items, which is similarly nigh impossible to do perfectly because of the passives, actives, and which types of champions have more synergy with what they get.

AninLegions7771 votes
  1. Cherry picking? Haha. Okay man. Syndra's ult. Annie's ult. Lux's ult. Malz's ult (Oh God No). Brand's entire kit. Cho's ult. Fizz's entire kit. LB's entire kit. There's more where that came from. You have no idea how many burst mages there are. Then when you call AD assassins which are only Zed and Talon, you cry foul because Riot made them supposedly "OP". MF is limited to her ult which can't be accessed till 6. Jinx's ult is the same and the rockets on her Q come with a disadvantage. Also the splash range is low. Sivir? Loool. Runaan's needs high AD or a kalista to work well. Rage blade AoE range is really small.
  2. Tell me how I misrepresented your arguments.
  3. Tell me 1 AD fighter that can burst. Also name other AD assassins except Zed and Talon.
  4. Wait, did you just say that increase in cost of AP items is a buff? Lool. Okay. Again, I was talking about AD assassins that go mid. Not one of them builds triforce or IE (except IE on Talon is still a thing). How many burst Mages get Lich Bane? (Lux maybe?). Not many so I didn't include it. Liandry, is at 3200g which makes it the equal to the second lowest priced AD item I mentioned.

I clearly stated that the comparisons aren't accurate. Also, champion synergy, etc do have no place in this discussion because it's about price and like it or not, AD items are more expensive. Deny it. I dare you.

Yrzen4 votes

One. Not once did I say Zed or Talon was op, nor AD items were op. You are making strawman arguments again. I only said that AD items seem to be in a better state than AP items. Once again you aren't comparing like and like though, by saying ult limitations matter for adcs but not for mages.

You have no idea how many burst mages there are.

Why do you insist on an ad hominem? It's not like I'm new to League, I know every champion in the game. I'm just saying that while you argue using examples of mages with little aoe, (to make claims about how broke their ult is in comparison to Lucian's) there are several examples of adcs and ADs who have an easier time taking on large groups.

Also, Rageblade+Runaan's is hilarious.

Two. (the numbers change themselves for some reason when not in text) You keep insisting I think the balance is highly skewed when I mainly only think your comparisons are ridiculous. You've literally said "You say X can do X" twice, in the form of Jinx and Lucian.

Three. Several fighters (Xin Zhao, Yasuo, Yi) can burst with varying functionality and time needed to do a full rotation. Unless you meant something else by burst.

Other AD assassins, like Kha'zix, Rengar, and several AD champions that can secondarily function like assassins? (Riven, Darius, hell, Yi has assassin listed as his primary role)

Tell me how this has any bearing on the subject at hand?

Four. This isn't even putting words into my mouth. You are literally changing what I said to fit your argument.

In case it wasn't clear, as I was saying; adding more items into the game for Mages to buy would be a buff, or are you implying taking away expensive AP items like Rabadon's Deathcap would be a buff for Mages because "their items are now cheaper"?

You might have been talking about AD mid assassins, but I wasn't because that's not the only things AD items affect, which I found more poignant given the topic of your item comparison. If you meant to include only items assassins use, that's fine. Even so, you avoid the fact that you aren't comparing cost efficiency.

As for saying the comparisons aren't accurate, this falls under the ambiguity fallacy. You are arguing that a pick of AD items will always cost more than a pick of AP items to make fun of the "infinite gold" statement, while avoiding the fact that it doesn't matter if it costs more if it only costs more because it gives the AD champion more stats or better effects, which I find an unfair comparison. You say it isn't accurate while toting how it shows that AD items cost more, which strikes me as using the statement as a scapegoat.

Champion synergy determines why prices matter. You can have the most broken DP item in the game with +9999 DP damage on every skill for one gold, but it doesn't matter if no champion in the game uses DP, which would make it the worst item in the game. In a same way, it's an unquantifiable gauge of balance for how easily champions can apply the stats and effects their items give them, which is hardly tangent anymore if you meant to only compare items assassins of each resource would be getting.

This has clearly gotten out of hand, so I think I'd like to stop replying. This has reached the point of arguing for the sake of arguing based on misunderstanding and I'd like no further part in it.

AninLegions7773 votes

First of all, let me say this: I respect your use of English. Almost intimidates me. But I don't respect your use of this term, "Ad Hominem", which is wrong. For this reason, I will stop replying you cos I hate when people use terms they don't understand perfectly. I said this:

You have no idea how many burst mages there are.

This isn't a personal attack. I made an observation at the small pool of burst mages you called and I said you have no idea how many more there are. This isn't even remotely close to Ad Hominem. Please, I beg you, take this time to read up on the use of that term (This isn't Ad Hominem too).

Yrzen2 votes

Maybe I just take offense too easily.

I did use it properly though.

AninLegions7773 votes

Yes you do. And you didn't use it properly. This is Ad Hominem: An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly.

Looking at my comments, I never attacked you, or your motives or your attributes.

Drake Xi Onyx2 votes

... Um dude, you literally contradicted yourself just now. You said:

You have no idea how many burst mages there are.

Which most definitely is attacking an attribute of Yrzen's; that of his knowledge of the number of the number of "burst mages". This attribute being irrelevant to the case made, it actually** is** Ad Hominem, benign as it may seem.

AninLegions7772 votes

His knowledge of the number of burst mages? Loool

Guy A - Dude C. Ronaldo is the best player in the world! Guy B - No it's Lionel Messi! Guy A - What has Messi ever done? Guy B - He has the most Ballon D'ors Guy A - He has that many?! Guy B - You have no idea!

As you can see in the conversation above, Guy B in no way insulted Guy A's knowledge of the number of Ballon D'ors Lionel Messi had. Instead, he shed light on the number for Guy A to realise that Messi was THAT good.

Yrzen said I was cherry picking because I used only a few burst mage examples. So I mentioned more and used that statement to shed light on the fact that there are many more Burst mages than I mention initially.

Any more "contradictions"?

Drake Xi Onyx2 votes

You have shifted the goalposts here. Yrzen was calling you cherry picking with regards to abilities effects:

You compare damages using Veigar's ult, which is a hallmark of cherry-picking, while also saying that Mages are multi-target

This hence has nothing to do with champion pools at all, but is in the context of how damage scales with itemization being discussed.

Guy A - Dude C. Ronaldo is the best player in the world! Guy B - No it's Lionel Messi! Guy A - What has Messi ever done? Guy B - He has the most Ballon D'ors Guy A - He has that many?! Guy B - You have no idea!

Now, your analogy does not reflect the context nor relevance of each argument to the subject under debate.

A better way of framing this 'debate', still using soccer as an analogy, would be:

Guy A - Dude, Strikers are just as effective as Defenders (Mages are not under-powered). Guy B - No, Defenders have a different effect in general, because the off-side rule favors them so strikers can't score most of the game (You can't compare their effect in the same way to Fighter's, Assassins and ADC's, but the cost-efficiency of Items is bad for Mages so they have diminished effectiveness in the current meta). Guy A - But C. Ronaldo has scored so many goals! (Veigar ult can do 1.9k damage). Guy B - You are cherry picking one stat in isolation (You are cherry picking one stat in isolation). Guy A - You have no idea how many great strikers there are (You have no idea how many burst mages there are).

Do you see how the knowledge of the number of specific strikers is irrelevant to the actual discussion of how they are balanced within the game (by the rules)? It is just belittling Guy B's knowledge for the appearance of superiority for Guy A in the argument, while doing nothing to make a point on the balance between strikers and defenders.

So no, no more contradictions; just the one remains where you quote your own ad hominem while simultaneously claiming you did no such thing.

Good day.

Penguin Eclipse8 votes

AD mids also get lifesteal from their items. Mages/assassins get no sustain at all unless they have it built into their kit. Which almost none do.

Phoenix Kotori 5 votes

If you forced them to buy hex they probably don't have as much kill pressure early, so you should be safe to farm that seekers up, especially since most AP champions have way clear.

Also going hex over item 3133 sacrifices CDR as well early game, seems fair to me.

Very Hard Engage34 votes

try wave clearing on a mage without CDR/mana regen, you'll quickly find if you didn't build item 1058 as a first item, you cant. and you'll be waiting for a second round of abilities. which is fine because you normally go CDR/mana.

if you built item 3191 first item, you'll find your farm is trash, you cant wave clear at all, and you'll be oom after 4 waves because your mana costs only got higher and you didn't build enough AP to go with it. and needless to say you're getting pushed in on knowing you cant retaliate back because you didn't build any ap yet. so you're forced to choose between farm or poke, not both.

if you build anything other than double dorans/codex, or rushed morello/grail, you cant farm the wave. not like ADs who have double whammy autos and abilities to do so.

find me some midlaners who start dorans blade/1x health pot. there are none, (sometimes yasuo, not always)they all go the greedy play longsword/3x health pots because its significantly better for their first back, build path, and laning phase than what a dblade could ever provide because there is no risk involved for these early ad mid laners.

The Bearded Bard5 votes

Thank god this thread got some traction. I've been saying this for so long and all I get are morons saying shit like 'Zhonyas and FQC OP!'

Erockandroll4 votes

ugh, we're trying to prevent death right? Armor items arn't the only thing that can do that.

item 3027 Really good at fixing your mana problem, as well as offering a good chunk of health and AP. We're actually seeing this item abused in the LCS at the moment. (Probably more so than FQC)

item 3116 Another option for health and power, and grants a nice utiltiy for chasing down enemies.

And honestly, health may be a bigger counter to AD mid laners, as they are either heavy poke casters. (Jayce or Varius) on an assassin. And these champs don't tend to have a ton of health shred. Making it a lot harder for them to counter build.

AMYS GRAVE10 votes

And these champs don't tend to have a ton of health shred.

Zed 10% max HP passive. Talon two damage amplification passives to deal with pesky HP. Yasuo the original defensive shredder with crit and armor pen. item 3153 ...

they deal with tanky builds just fine.

SpongebobIsLife8 votes

Zed's actually scales with level, 10 percent isn't until lvl 16 or 17 and only activates when ur under a certain threshold of health, bork is based off of current hp not max. Can't say too much about the other two.

forist6 votes

Here's some quick insight. Talon's e damage amp scales with each point and is generally maxed last. It starts out at a measly 3% and doesn't increase until he hits level 14 and has maxed every other skill. As for his passive, it only amplifies the damage of auto attacks by 15% which is trash on an ad caster/assassin who doesn't even build attack speed. Tanks absolutely wreck a talon when he's not extremely fed.

TotalJerk5 votes

Zed: Requires you to be below 50% health, is only 10% at level 17 Talon: These do the same amount of damage regardless of how much health you build, what point are you even trying to make? On top of that, most Talons max the second amp last. Yasuo: Penetrates your BONUS ARMOR, has literally no impact on health item 3153: What AD mid even builds this early, anyway? Zeds have mostly stopped taking it since the nerf, Talons never took it, and Yasuo needs to buy crit first.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Odarth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NmfsLlk,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-19T19:06:34.903+0000)

Mages forced into rushing Zhonya's have to sacrifice CDR and Mana regen as well Seeker's Armguard is 77.92% gold efficient with no stacks. Its gold efficiency increases by 1.74% per stack, becoming gold efficient after thirteen stacks and reaching 130.1% gold efficiency at maximum stacks.

This means that their early game versus and AD champion is somewhat bad considering that Hexdrinker base stats are 102.31% gold efficient. When taking magic damage below 30% Maximum Health Hexdrinker gold efficiency gets increased up to 159.77%.

Just purely off items mages tend to have a lot less power and have to rely on hoping that the AD laner messes up.

on the other hand, you get to walk with item 1029 and 4 item 2003 into lane, while there is no defensive lvl 1 mr option that can compete for ad champs.

youll finish your seekers armguard much sooner than your opponent will finish hexdrinker. (900 gold from cloth to armguard).

every time im up against an ap champ on top, im always at a loss at what to start with without being at a disadvantage.

if were talking about ap itemization we cant just look at midlane as an isolated case. every weapon you give ap champs against ad champs will help mages against assassins on mid, but will also buff that rumble on top.

AMYS GRAVE10 votes

youll finish your seekers armguard much sooner than your opponent will finish hexdrinker. (900 gold from cloth to armguard).

950 from longsword to hexdrinker. seems about even to me.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

950 from longsword to hexdrinker. seems about even to me.

it would be if cloth and 4 pots wouldnt be superior to longsword and 3 pots when youre the guy that constantly gets poked at.

a rumble sitting on a cloth armor and superior sustain while constantly spamming flamespitter. you cant go near minions to cs without taking damage.

if you try to trade back against him, hes gonna win in the long run. dont forget that auto attacks draw minion aggro. that means that extra damage on those attacks doesnt help much in trades.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

You mean how item 1033 is only 450 gold allowing you to start with MR and a pot?

Dealth2 votes

You forgot the part where AD mids are melee and have to put themselves in dangerous range whilst mages are ranged and can put out the same damage at safer distances.

edit: downvote me if you want but I'm just telling you guy straight how it is and why riot made it this way.

Shiyo Kozuki18 votes

Zed has longer range than nearly every mage.

Dealth4 votes

One, poking someone with zed at full range requires that he uses his only escape move and a lot of energy

and two, other mages can perform their full burst combo at a much safer range while zed (and yasuo, fizz, and ekko) have to be at melee range which makes them much more prone to cc. This is why there are defensive options for melee champions.

For example, rammus can't taunt Ahri or Viktor when they ult but he CAN taunt Zed after he ults, yasuo when he goes in, and ekko when he goes in (if he isn't stunned). Same goes for Nautilus passive, leona stun, renekton stun, thresh flay, alistar pulverize, etc etc etc.

There are many more melee CC than there are ranged CC.

TotalJerk5 votes

Okay that's just bullshit.

Brand Corki Ezreal Heimerdinger Lux Velkoz Xerath Ziggs

WalkingInACircle2 votes

W + Q longer range than all of those except some ults. Zed is the safest farmer as well as biggest bully in midlane.

AninLegions7773 votes

Not permanently. He uses his 3 abilities making him vulnerable to ganks, have almost no energy and is the AP mid's bitch until it's up. So that is not even a valid argument.

jmanosu1 votes

I have some experience with this. I use to main Azir and now main Zed. Basically in Azir I still rush either rod or nasher's. Zed I rush item 3142.

i have to say that while AD have an item advantage as far as damage stats go, AP has insaine counters in both abilities and item.

I just finished a game against a fizz. While i got a early kill prior to my alt he wrecked me in lane later on. Fizz's playful trixter complete counters my alt rendering it useless. This is pretty much the same story for Morgana and lux. If you get stunned you basically die. Coupled with the fact that for ad assassins likeZed Talon Katarina are rendered pretty much useless against targets with item 3157 .

Short story I played against an azir recently and had a fun time. Azir got a kill on me and so did volbar early game. While I won that game zed vs azir is a very skill based match up.

Sevixys6 votes

Katarina is the most op ad assassin in the game #nerfplz

Kappa.

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