Hey if you guys are worried about the buff bar being crowded

StarGuardianWeeb·Feb 28, 2018·8 votes·3,754 views

Maybe utilize that not particularly useful at the moment runes panel? With the exception of any quest or stacking rune, I feel no one is using it for much. Like I dont care how much damage a low tier rune does/how much a of a resource it restored, I want to know when its up next or if its a scaling rune, how much its going to do at the current moment. Even if a CD is as low as 4 or 5 seconds, its more useful than "you did XXXX damage over the course of the game with this rune."

So maybe make that panel more useful and put cooldowns and other things there where applicable.

~~or dont im a scrub not a cop~~ Edit: I kinda forgot i made this thread until reading Surrender at 20 and seeing the riot comment on it, where I went "Oh hey I was just discussing that....wait a minute" lol

16 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarFeb 28, 201814 votes

I'll see if Riot Sparkle could talk about this (she was the UX designer for the runes system). I personally would get more value out of the things you're talking about - I usually just trust my runes are doing what they say they are and don't care so much for how much I've healed with triumph as an example. That's just my opinion though, and I have far less insight into the player implications of not providing the information we currently do. I could easily believe that it entirely comes down to personal preferences, but can't honestly speak with any authority on this topic.

NefasFeb 28, 20187 votes

I think it would be a lot more helpful and useful if the Rune bar wasn’t running total for things like Comet or FF but how much damage/healing/whatever the next proc will do. I don’t see how the running total is useful at all in game. After the game sure. It’s the equivalent of showing total seconds saved on ult by running ultimate hat (which it currently doesn’t but shows the % cdr achieved) As a random bit of trivia somewhat interesting. As helpful in game for informing decision making, not great.

RiotSparkleFeb 28, 20186 votes

This is very fair feedback, thank you.

MyozthirirnFeb 28, 20187 votes

Some of the duality keystones could get a lot from having 2 lines instead of one. For example:

· Aftershock should get damage mitigated and damage done, instead of only damage done, you pick it to get tankier. · Grasp, same as aftershock; the healing is as important as the damage, if not more. · Aery shoud have Damage and Shielding, instead of number of procs/number of procs.

I understand it would be a bit harder to fit 2 lines of text instead of one, you could always just show the bigger number beetween the 2 or at least consider the Aftershock rune to display mitigated damage, its a tank keystone the damage it deals its just a bonus not what you pick it for.

Also it would be lovely if you gave us stats for ravenous hunter i would love to know how much im healing from it, even if it isnt the main display, you could just add it on hover, or make it replacethe "5/5" as its pretty useless at that point.

Im also a big fan of useless/funny stats like item 3046 deaths prevented, you could give Guardian a counter on how many times you saved someone from death, or zombie ward/poro ward a counter on enemies spotted/amount of vision score you gained from them.

Edit: Sorry for my broken english, I promise I tried my best.

Edit2: Runes that give raw stats (Gathering the storm, Mirror shell, etc...) should give you the data on how much damage/mitigation you gained from those stats. It would be much easier to compare for example 800 damage mitigated from bone plating with 950 damage mitigated from mirror shell, than comparing 800 damage mitigated with "+9 mr", i know the rune literaly gives 9 mr, but how much is that 9 mr helping me? ill never know.

RiotSparkleFeb 28, 20186 votes

Thank you for the suggestion! There are actually additional stats on the hover tooltip in game (I think Aery has the numbers you mention in there for instance) but as you're hitting on we're really limited in our up front space in the panel. I think it's a good suggestion that we could add more stats in the hover for specific runes or change up the specific one that's shown in the panel.

Also your English is totally readable, don't worry at all. :)

NefasFeb 28, 20183 votes

I would disagree with your second edit - runes should only show raw stats or actionable information in game, precisely because space is already so limited. We need information we can act upon.

The amount of healing in the next grasp proc is actionable, you can use that information to inform how to play a trade. The total amount of healing done in the game is not. Same thing with raw stats - Gathering Storm telling you how much AP it is currently contributing is actionable - you can use that information to inform how you build.

There’s a reason that the normal stats bar shows X Armor and not Total Damage Mitigated. Total Damage Mitigated is not a helpful stat for making decisions in game. See the number of Armor you have is actionable - you can tell if you need more and what amount of your current armor is due to runes vs some other source. What does Total Damage Mitigated even mean? It could be low or high due to the pace/type of game you are in, but that doesn’t tell you if you need more armor or magic resist. It’s low at the start of games but high at the end just because of the number of fights hat have taken place, that doesn’t help you make any choices or actions.

That’s not to say total numbers and other types of stats aren’t valuable - they just aren’t valuable in game. I want to see my Total Comet Damage after a game so I can evaluate whether Comet provides enough Damage compared to Aery, or whether the trade of in Comet Damage is worth it to get Fleet Footwork instead. Those choices and decisions can only be made out of game, so that’s where that info needs to be.

ChaddyFantomeMar 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I would disagree with your second edit - runes should only show raw stats or actionable information in game, precisely because space is already so limited. We need information we can act upon.

The amount of healing in the next grasp proc is actionable, you can use that information to inform how to play a trade. The total amount of healing done in the game is not. Same thing with raw stats - Gathering Storm telling you how much AP it is currently contributing is actionable - you can use that information to inform how you build.

There’s a reason that the normal stats bar shows X Armor and not Total Damage Mitigated. Total Damage Mitigated is not a helpful stat for making decisions in game. See the number of Armor you have is actionable - you can tell if you need more and what amount of your current armor is due to runes vs some other source. What does Total Damage Mitigated even mean? It could be low or high due to the pace/type of game you are in, but that doesn’t tell you if you need more armor or magic resist. It’s low at the start of games but high at the end just because of the number of fights hat have taken place, that doesn’t help you make any choices or actions.

That’s not to say total numbers and other types of stats aren’t valuable - they just aren’t valuable in game. I want to see my Total Comet Damage after a game so I can evaluate whether Comet provides enough Damage compared to Aery, or whether the trade of in Comet Damage is worth it to get Fleet Footwork instead. Those choices and decisions can only be made out of game, so that’s where that info needs to be.

Well said This applies to things like support item stats too.

CosnirakMar 1, 20181 votes

I disagree somewhat with what Nefas said. I'm often looking at the damage/healing/whatever currently done in a game by a rune. It's very useful to give me context in regards to how a rune is performing within a specific set of circumstances. A rune can do half the damage in a game as it did in the prior game despite being similarly lengthed games. I wanna know how useful my rune was during laning, how useful it was after laning, ect. A single end of game stat does a very poor job of that.

A huge change I'd like to see is the ability to look at the stats on other people's runes. At the very least using the on site match history feature, which currently doesn't even show rune builds, let alone their end game effectiveness. I used to look at the player builds and stats from pro game vods on the esports part of the site and check out what runes and masteries pros used and now that's gone. Ideally I'd like to be able to see the effectiveness of each player's runes at any snapshot of time in a given game, but I'm pretty sure that's asking too much and even if it happens it won't be for many years.

RiotSparkleFeb 28, 201816 votes

O hai, I'm Riot Sparkle and I'm going to write a long answer because I never get to talk shop about stuff like this and I'm really excited. :D

So maybe make that panel more useful and put cooldowns and other things there where applicable.

So, this suggestion is a pretty dang good one - I know because it was actually originally how we had the in game rune panel set up tbh. We had different rune cooldowns and changing damage values on there, and the idea was to provide tactical "in the moment" information on the in game panel.

However, in practice (i.e in testing) this didn't work out so well. Players needed the information on the buff bar for many of their existing abilities and buffs, and attention was divided between the two spaces. This meant that players often missed important rune info because they were looking at that teamfight action - and the rune panel is farther from the action than the buff bar. Hence, we decided to move keystone cooldowns etc. to the buff bar instead and group all of that "need to know now" info together.

Additionally, we found that players were actually most often using the runes panel in a "moment of rest", while dead or in the base, for example. And, generally, having a cooldown or value of "0" for something wasn't very useful to them in that use case. Stats like you mention for the quest runes, for example, were far more useful.

Now, this isn't to say I think we've perfected the formula of showing information on the runes panel - we still have an upcoming task to do a giant sweep of both in-game and end of game rune stats to make sure we're showing the most useful things we can and to push the two rune info spaces further apart (players tend to want different stats during the game than after it from an evaluation standpoint). So, basically, I think there's more work to be done around rune stats for sure.

I've also talked about how we're going to be evaluating individual runes more often now (ex: Manaflow Band) to see if they need to display more tactical information on the buff bar to be used effectively. The danger there is indeed in overloading that space, which is why we're pretty carefully weighing each rune that goes up there, but I think that runes like Manaflow or Null Orb, despite being normal runes instead of keystones, certainly earn that spot.

**TL;DR **We are concerned about having too many things on the buff bar BUT at the same time it made sense to group all of the tactical information you need together in one spot visually, or else it was actually really hard to use that information when you needed it. Also we have more work to do in the runes stat space.

StarGuardianWeebMar 1, 20182 votes

Thanks for all of your input! I appreciate you guys responding. :)

I can totally see where you are coming from there, I will admit I want thia change more for "when should i initiate/back off" but with the position of the panel it could detract from teamfights or even get me ambushed (always ban shaco :P ) In that regards, I hope you at riot find ways to "compromise" the info.

I wish I had more to offer than just "Ah i see, well good luck fixing all that!" but if i were any good at UI design i'd probably be working for you all lol. I do think tho that maybe something similar to the PBE flair for CD resets might help notice some rune effects better? Or maybe a sound effect might help. Im just spitballing tho. I hope you all keep up the good work tho! [vlad-salute]

ZaneShadowFeb 28, 20182 votes

While I would word this softer, the general idea I agree with. It’d be nice to see cooldown son that page, and maybe show the damage it did if I hovered over it. More like an afterthought for the curious.

StarGuardianWeebFeb 28, 20181 votes

yeah ive found my online nature of apathy can sometimes come off pretty aggressively. Lemme see if i can fix it a bit.

MalrothDragoniaFeb 28, 20182 votes

I know I use the runes panel right now as I try to differ between different builds that seem like they'd work in theory, or minor runes I think could be effective on a certain champion (I'm doing a lot of Swain iteration right now) and knowing the numbers on that helps me assess the value of one choice or another between games. Like, how many times did I proc Grasp, and what value did I get, vs a klepto build I tried.

Or do I get good value out of elixir duration over a game or would I get better value from a different minor rune like second wind. Helps me choose trees and such.

I think the feedback it provides is important. But that's one player's opinion.

JarodDempseyFeb 28, 20182 votes

i dont see how the buff bar is getting crowded, i usually see like 1-5 buffs on a champ at once when it could easily fit like 10-15. Theres plenty of room to widen the bar if needed.

Rayjay RedfangFeb 28, 20182 votes

There is some useful information that having it the way it is gives. For example, with phase rush or glacial augment, I can see how much use I'm getting out of that rune, and that would be more useful than knowing what speed boost number I get because if I proc it, I really don't care how much speed it gets me as long as I get it, where as knowing how much use I'm getting out of it over a certain point in the game is helpful. Forr some runes it would be helpful to know what the cooldown is though for planning purposes.

Sire HippingtonFeb 28, 20181 votes

Well, i use it when testing builts/runes, but honestly it would be much more usefull to get more detailed informations on runes and maybe even items and abillities after the game instead of that panel.