Bot Lane is a Massive Problem for EVERYONE

anmyauntieonpo·Jan 23, 2018·12 votes·2,107 views

Nearly every game in ranked low elo it seems one bot lane is feeding and the other is fed. It's completely unfair as well that these bot lane champions get their power spikes early before laning phase ends because it makes it harder of the rest of the team to have any sort of impact on the game before its just snowballed out of control for the two who are ahead, and there is nothing that can be done. Seriously as a jungle, mid, top, any other lane it feels like shit to have to roll the dice basically in every ranked game and pray your bot lane does not feed. It must also feel bad for those who are feeding because sometimes it's not entirely in their control. 1 Kill can be GG because low-elo players in general do not know how to play safe.

Anyways, yeah I suggest you make it harder for ADC to scale and that they hit their big power spike some decent time outside of lane phase because us other roles have no way to reliably impact the game when every game goes 5-0 to 0-5 first 12 minutes for one bot lane vs the other. Sure jungle can gank , top can TP, and mid can roam but its not always successful and you will be taxed if it doesn't work out. Rarely as well can you expect low-elo players to reliably pull off plays like these to flip the game in their favor. It's just way too often a one sided feed fest because of inexperience and lack of self-control. Please make it less impactful to the players who are playing other roles. Deduct less LP, or something. I'm sick and fucking tired of going 4-0 jng or 4-0 mid and just getting steam rolled because their bot lane has three full items by end of laning phase.

I completely understand that if this was plat or diamond that the other players would be able to play around this, rotate faster, and have a more reliable way to turn around a game where this occurred(also this would likely occur less as people would not carelessly feed as much) but in low elo its a big problem.

42 Comments

Bronze DemonJan 23, 20186 votes

adcs are op and has been for 7 seasons, we need actual diversity. we DONT need more force metas and "balance" ideas or new champions designed solely for the benefit of adcs.

item 3504 item 3034 item 3109 item 3222 item 3046 item 3107 item 3308 +all the newer supports. adcs shouldn't be the only class where all thier innate weaknesses are thrown out the windows because of these items and champions

vgamedudeJan 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ich heiße Jeff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LXN60QW,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-23T23:17:41.539+0000)

adcs are op and has been for 7 seasons, we need actual diversity. we DONT need more force metas and "balance" ideas or new champions designed solely for the benefit of adcs.

+all the newer supports. adcs shouldn't be the only class where all thier innate weaknesses are thrown out the windows because of these items and champions

This is the crux of the issue to me. More diversity. It's really annoying having one role, one class and one player being dictated as the carry every single game and then expecting everyone to play around that one player.

Guess what happens to your team when that player isn't as good as the other teams?

EssenceOfPooJan 24, 20183 votes

one class and one player being dictated as the carry every single game one class and one player being dictated as the carry every single game

i dont know, man. it's not like every game the damage chart i see marksman/adc having the highest damage every time. and i'm pretty sure not even half of any team's job is to peel or follow the lead of their marksman or feed them red buff all the time or feed them all the kil gold.

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

i dont know, man. it's not like every game the damage chart i see marksman/adc having the highest damage every time. and i'm pretty sure not even half of any team's job is to peel or follow the lead of their marksman or feed them red buff all the time or feed them all the kil gold.

Whether or not the person playing the carry role on your team sucks or not isn't really the point, it still is AD Carry and the point still stands that that is always the carry position no matter what, and we see only one variation of classes and types down there. Marksmen.

DemainaNyxJan 24, 20181 votes

Ziggs is a Marksman confirmed.

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ziggs is a Marksman confirmed.

Literally chose the one extremely rare limited and niche exception that pretty much no longer exists even as that.

DemainaNyxJan 24, 20181 votes

Literally just watched a game where someone played Ziggs bot, but ok, course he "no longer exists". lul

vgamedudeJan 24, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Literally just watched a game where someone played Ziggs bot, but ok, course he "no longer exists". lul

hold on I'm going to go pick master yi as an adc and put it on youtube and then it will exist too.

DemainaNyxJan 24, 20181 votes

Already exists on youtube, but good try.

You just can't accept that you said only Marksman go bot and I said you're wrong.

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Already exists on youtube, but good try.

You just can't accept that you said only Marksman go bot and I said you're wrong.

Are you really going to be this pedantic? Troll picks exist everywhere. Just because you can technically queue into a role playing anything doesn't mean everything is played in that role. You know exactly what I meant, stop being ridiculous.

With your logic riots recent statement on wanting to let other champions into bot lane doesn't even make sense.

DemainaNyxJan 26, 20181 votes

Just played against an Azir bot lane.

EssenceOfPooJan 24, 20182 votes

you're mistaking "carry" with "reliable/assigned/default turret sieger". they're the ones who are assigned that role because of their range, their high DPS on objectives, and the nature that bonus AP damage are only dealt at 50% on turrets. there's a reason why Ziggs was the "adc" for a moment of a season.

the argument that something IS because it SHOULD is flawed. if it's designed to do something but never reliably does, then the designers have failed.

competitive players DO NOT form their composition based on what their marksman will be. so no we dont play around the marksman. neither is everyone's job to keep the marksman alive or to get marksman fed at all time. otherwise you'd see junglers only ganking bot lane. but more on that later.

saying that games are decided by better marksman is rather simplistic. how many teamfights and ultimately matches, can you say, are won because the victors' marksman has higher cs, higher kd(a) and dealt more damage? how many teamfights are won because of a better marksman? if that's the case, you'd hear a very one-dimensional shout-casting/analysis for teamfights.

asking why marksman should be the turret sieger is like asking why maokai or malphite should be the tank. no they're just the BEST class for turret sieging for reasons mentioned above, just like maokai and malphite are best built tanky because of their innate base and scaling HP and resistances in addition to how their abilities scale (you don't built tanky on marksman, do you?).

But can you build tanky on marksman? sure you can. it just won't be ideal. can you build full damage on sejuani? sure you can. it just wont be ideal. can you build attack speed+AD on ahri? sure you can. it just wont be ideal. can you play an assassin like a tank buster? sure you can. build black cleaver + dominik/mortal but it won't be ideal. but why should assassins be the ONLY CLASS who can reliably reach the backline, shred their marksman, and GET OUT? BECAUSE THATS WHAT ASSASSINS ARE BEST AT! are there other champions from other class that can dive into the backline like an assassin? of course, but can they get out as fast as an assassin before they're cc-ed and melted down if there is another high damage dealers? very unlikely. is there other champions from other classes that are good at taking down turrets? sure, ziggs are meant to do that. even if you dont agree with ziggs, there's still tryndamere, nasus, etc. but are they ideal? maybe. maybe not. why not? maybe because they have to put themselves in danger range (melee) to damage the turrets. but can they and are they decent at that one aspect (damaging turrets)? OF COURSE!

marksman are assigned bot lane because

they're the best class at turret sieging
drakes are near bot lane which means...
it's best to put the additional player bot lane with the marksman
hence, a support to help farm and deal with enemy bot lane safely

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you're mistaking "carry" with "reliable/assigned/default turret sieger". they're the ones who are assigned that role because of their range, their high DPS on objectives, and the nature that bonus AP damage are only dealt at 50% on turrets. there's a reason why Ziggs was the "adc" for a moment of a season.

the argument that something IS because it SHOULD is flawed. if it's designed to do something but never reliably does, then the designers have failed.

competitive players DO NOT form their composition based on what their marksman will be. so no we dont play around the marksman. neither is everyone's job to keep the marksman alive or to get marksman fed at all time. otherwise you'd see junglers only ganking bot lane. but more on that later.

saying that games are decided by better marksman is rather simplistic. how many teamfights and ultimately matches, can you say, are won because the victors' marksman has higher cs, higher kd(a) and dealt more damage? how many teamfights are won because of a better marksman? if that's the case, you'd hear a very one-dimensional shout-casting/analysis for teamfights.

asking why marksman should be the turret sieger is like asking why maokai or malphite should be the tank. no they're just the BEST class for turret sieging for reasons mentioned above, just like maokai and malphite are best built tanky because of their innate base and scaling HP and resistances in addition to how their abilities scale (you don't built tanky on marksman, do you?).

But can you build tanky on marksman? sure you can. it just won't be ideal. can you build full damage on sejuani? sure you can. it just wont be ideal. can you build attack speed+AD on ahri? sure you can. it just wont be ideal. can you play an assassin like a tank buster? sure you can. build black cleaver + dominik/mortal but it won't be ideal. but why should assassins be the ONLY CLASS who can reliably reach the backline, shred their marksman, and GET OUT? BECAUSE THATS WHAT ASSASSINS ARE BEST AT! are there other champions from other class that can dive into the backline like an assassin? of course, but can they get out as fast as an assassin before they're cc-ed and melted down if there is another high damage dealers? very unlikely. is there other champions from other classes that are good at taking down turrets? sure, ziggs are meant to do that. even if you dont agree with ziggs, there's still tryndamere, nasus, etc. but are they ideal? maybe. maybe not. why not? maybe because they have to put themselves in danger range (melee) to damage the turrets. but can they and are they decent at that one aspect (damaging turrets)? OF COURSE!

marksman are assigned bot lane because

they're the best class at turret sieging

drakes are near bot lane which means...

it's best to put the additional player bot lane with the marksman

hence, a support to help farm and deal with enemy bot lane safely

I always hear this that they're the best objective takers, but theyre also the best teamfighters and always do the most damage in teamfights, they have excellent sustain, and some even have control. I think saying they are the best turret takers or whatever is over simplifying the reasons why we have ZERO role diversity in bot lane carry.

There's a reason it's called ad CARRY.

Bird GirIJan 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I always hear this that they're the best objective takers, but theyre also the best teamfighters and always do the most damage in teamfights, they have excellent sustain, and some even have control. I think saying they are the best turret takers or whatever is over simplifying the reasons why we have ZERO role diversity in bot lane carry.

There's a reason it's called ad CARRY.

And here, you're also oversimplifying the reasons just like he is and assuming that the problem is only with marksmen being too strong and not anything to do with how the game inherently works.

vgamedudeJan 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Overlord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LXN60QW,comment-id=0003000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T17:44:35.639+0000)

And here, you're also oversimplifying the reasons just like he is and assuming that the problem is only with marksmen being too strong and not anything to do with how the game inherently works.

Just because it's how the game works with it's forced meta doesn't mean it's fun or that it should remain like that. Apparently riot finally agrees with their last statement on wanting more diversity in bot lane.

It sucks that with how the game works a marksmen auto attacker is required always. Sans the fringe and rare limited case of ziggs.

Bird GirIJan 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Whether or not the person playing the carry role on your team sucks or not isn't really the point, it still is AD Carry and the point still stands that that is always the carry position no matter what, and we see only one variation of classes and types down there. Marksmen.

Wrong. Are you you willing to say tank supports and enchantresses are the same and have been the only thing dominating the support role and are broken because of that? Or that mages and assassins are the same thing and are broken for being the only thing dominating midlane (besides like Yasuo and Galio)? There's hypercarries, utility marksmen, caster/early game marksmen. You're not gonna tell me Leblanc and Veigar get to be "assassin and mage" while putting Kog'Maw and Lucian in the same class just because they right click, are you? You're smarter than that.

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Overlord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LXN60QW,comment-id=00030000000000000002,timestamp=2018-01-24T16:37:55.912+0000)

Wrong. Are you you willing to say tank supports and enchantresses are the same and have been the only thing dominating the support role and are broken because of that? Or that mages and assassins are the same thing and are broken for being the only thing dominating midlane (besides like Yasuo and Galio)? There's hypercarries, utility marksmen, caster/early game marksmen. You're not gonna tell me Leblanc and Veigar get to be "assassin and mage" while putting Kog'Maw and Lucian in the same class just because they right click, are you? You're smarter than that.

No. That's been my point all along, that role diversity is greater everywhere besides bot lane carry role. The differences between adcs is nowhere near as much as other roles.

Are you honestly willing to say that the difference between ezreal and caitlyn or something is greater than that of talon and leblanc for instance? Or Ornn and Tryndamere?

Bird GirIJan 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No. That's been my point all along, that role diversity is greater everywhere besides bot lane carry role. The differences between adcs is nowhere near as much as other roles.

Are you honestly willing to say that the difference between ezreal and caitlyn or something is greater than that of talon and leblanc for instance? Or Ornn and Tryndamere?

Well the Ornn and Tryndamere example is ridiculous since one is a tank and the other is a melee diver and splitpusher. Talon and Leblanc are honestly quite similar aside from the fact that one is AP and the other is AD. They both have the same objective and goal. You pick either of them for the same reasons which is why they go into the assassin class. Caitlyn and Ezreal are decently different as one is a lane bully and (supposed to be) a late game carry while the other is a caster. These two are in separate classes like Tryndamere and Ornn are. I'd say the order of similarity in pairs would be Talon+Leblanc > Ezreal+Caitlyn > Ornn+Tryndamere.

There are different classes of marksmen in the bot lane just like how there are different variations of casters in the mid lane (assassins and mages). Sure, there have been ADCs in mid lane, and Ziggs is the only good example of a mage bot, but marksmen that went mid in the past have been historically awful in bot lane during the time (except for Tristana right before her rework because she was broken). Same thing happens whenever marksmen enter other roles.

Complaining that mages or melee characters or tanks never synergize enough with the support classes to go bot is like complaining that mages and marksmen (except the ones that are terrible bot) are never really viable in the jungle. Classes are just built to handle different positions. You'd have to change how supports as a whole work and how towers work to get rid of marksmen. You'd have to change the fact that casters scale incredibly hard with levels and rely on experience while not being as reliant on gold as marksmen to encourage them to go bot and share exp instead of just going to solo lanes. You'd also have to change a good deal to push casters out of mid.

I have to say though that I do agree that marksmen hit their spikes a bit too early. I think they might be a little too strong right now, but we need to stop making games last less than 30 minutes before it makes any sense to nerf them. Relic abuse just got removed too, so wait and see what happens. The discussion so far though is about why marksmen always being bot is not proof that they've been consistently overpowered. They've taken turns being strong just like tanks and mages and assassins. I hope you are not part of the crowd that thinks the ADC in 2017 meme was a conspiracy while ADC's were actually strong in early season 7 because they really were laughably weak. If you agree they were weak, then why were they still showing up bot? Because of the reasons I listed. Some parts of the team are just always necessary. Supports have always been necessary even though they've been such a small contributor in terms of power in the earlier seasons.

vgamedudeJan 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Overlord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LXN60QW,comment-id=0003000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T21:48:28.124+0000)

Well the Ornn and Tryndamere example is ridiculous since one is a tank and the other is a melee diver and splitpusher. Talon and Leblanc are honestly quite similar aside from the fact that one is AP and the other is AD. They both have the same objective and goal. You pick either of them for the same reasons which is why they go into the assassin class. Caitlyn and Ezreal are decently different as one is a lane bully and (supposed to be) a late game carry while the other is a caster. These two are in separate classes like Tryndamere and Ornn are. I'd say the order of similarity in pairs would be Talon+Leblanc > Ezreal+Caitlyn > Ornn+Tryndamere.

There are different classes of marksmen in the bot lane just like how there are different variations of casters in the mid lane (assassins and mages). Sure, there have been ADCs in mid lane, and Ziggs is the only good example of a mage bot, but marksmen that went mid in the past have been historically awful in bot lane during the time (except for Tristana right before her rework because she was broken). Same thing happens whenever marksmen enter other roles.

Complaining that mages or melee characters or tanks never synergize enough with the support classes to go bot is like complaining that mages and marksmen (except the ones that are terrible bot) are never really viable in the jungle. Classes are just built to handle different positions. You'd have to change how supports as a whole work and how towers work to get rid of marksmen. You'd have to change the fact that casters scale incredibly hard with levels and rely on experience while not being as reliant on gold as marksmen to encourage them to go bot and share exp instead of just going to solo lanes. You'd also have to change a good deal to push casters out of mid.

I have to say though that I do agree that marksmen hit their spikes a bit too early. I think they might be a little too strong right now, but we need to stop making games last less than 30 minutes before it makes any sense to nerf them. Relic abuse just got removed too, so wait and see what happens. The discussion so far though is about why marksmen always being bot is not proof that they've been consistently overpowered. They've taken turns being strong just like tanks and mages and assassins. I hope you are not part of the crowd that thinks the ADC in 2017 meme was a conspiracy while ADC's were actually strong in early season 7 because they really were laughably weak. If you agree they were weak, then why were they still showing up bot? Because of the reasons I listed. Some parts of the team are just always necessary. Supports have always been necessary even though they've been such a small contributor in terms of power in the earlier seasons.

That is literally my point that one is a tank and the other is a splitter yet theyre both played in a role, there is much more diversity elsewhere compared to bot lane adc, that was my ENTIRE point.

Bird GirIJan 24, 20182 votes

Oh my goodness... did you read my comment? Yes, tanks and melee carries are a little more distinct than the different marksman classes. However, you will never see any variation other than assassin or mage (both casters) in the midlane (besides Galio and Yasuo and some short lived picks). I can give plenty of reasons why an assassin like Ahri isn't that much more distinct from a mage like Xerath than a Kog'Maw is from a Lucian. Both pairs have quite a lot of differences that warrant putting them in 4 separate categories.

Let's say you're right somehow. That picks like MF and Jinx are very similar with no diversity between them. You know, since they right click and build AD (even though MF is just an AD and ranged version of casters and does most of her damage in teamfights with spells). Even if you were correct, what is the purpose of your "point" here? I've still listed enough reasons for marksmen to be bot even if they were all clones of each other other than them being overpowered or anything. All of these points, you'd have to address before you can say that marksmen always being the ones bot lane is somehow proof that they have always been overpowered.

Please address these:

How would you change turrets so that non marksmen are better at taking them? Perhaps allows spells to affect them? Buff demolish rune? Make AP give more free auto attack damage against turrets?
How would you change the nature of epic monsters, especially drakes, so that their large amounts of HP don't require consistent DPS from marksmen to take down rather than burst from mages?
How would you change the entire support champion pool so that their kits can revolve around other types of carries (buffs such as Nunu's new bloodboil effect perhaps)? What about the fact that shields and healing are more efficient on DPS champions because they have to stay in the fray and be tanky enough rather than blowing their burst and utility from long range and backing off? I don't just mean marksmen when I say DPS. Shields are MUCH stronger on a Cass or Ryze who have to stand there and DPS (like a marksman) than they are on something like a Xerath. Perhaps we can figure out ways to get more AP dps champions like Cass to the bot lane since they actually synergize with heal and shield supports. This leads to...
What about the fact that most of the meta solo laners rely more on experience than they do on gold because they scale so hard with levels due to high base damages? They need solo lane experience to keep up. Would you change all of the champions in those roles to not get so much free base damage but instead get higher scalings? Change itemization for everything that isn't crit so that they can scale better with gold and go bot? Who's gonna take their place? Other solo laners who will keep their base damages but now have to be taken into consideration when balancing new AP scaling items? Switch marksman to have high stat increases from levels but have worse items and have them go mid?
Why were marksman so weak in early season 7 when they were still necessary? The fact they were still mostly mandatory should mean they were still overpowered, correct? Your original point, after all, was "if marksmen weren't so broken, why have they always been meta?"

There's a lot of nuanced factors that you're not considering. It's not that simple to flip the game on its ass completely just because you have a problem with the fact that the 3 marksmen subsets have been all you see bot for so long (even though that's not the problem in the first place).

vgamedudeJan 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Overlord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LXN60QW,comment-id=000300000000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T23:29:41.695+0000)

Oh my goodness... did you read my comment? Yes, tanks and melee carries are a little more distinct than the different marksman classes. However, you will never see any variation other than assassin or mage (both casters) in the midlane (besides Galio and Yasuo and some short lived picks). I can give plenty of reasons why an assassin like Ahri isn't that much more distinct from a mage like Xerath than a Kog'Maw is from a Lucian. Both pairs have quite a lot of differences that warrant putting them in 4 separate categories.

Let's say you're right somehow. That picks like MF and Jinx are very similar with no diversity between them. You know, since they right click and build AD (even though MF is just an AD and ranged version of casters and does most of her damage in teamfights with spells). Even if you were correct, what is the purpose of your "point" here? I've still listed enough reasons for marksmen to be bot even if they were all clones of each other other than them being overpowered or anything. All of these points, you'd have to address before you can say that marksmen always being the ones bot lane is somehow proof that they have always been overpowered.

Please address these:

How would you change turrets so that non marksmen are better at taking them? Perhaps allows spells to affect them? Buff demolish rune? Make AP give more free auto attack damage against turrets?

How would you change the nature of epic monsters, especially drakes, so that their large amounts of HP don't require consistent DPS from marksmen to take down rather than burst from mages?

How would you change the entire support champion pool so that their kits can revolve around other types of carries (buffs such as Nunu's new bloodboil effect perhaps)? What about the fact that shields and healing are more efficient on DPS champions because they have to stay in the fray and be tanky enough rather than blowing their burst and utility from long range and backing off? I don't just mean marksmen when I say DPS. Shields are MUCH stronger on a Cass or Ryze who have to stand there and DPS (like a marksman) than they are on something like a Xerath. Perhaps we can figure out ways to get more AP dps champions like Cass to the bot lane since they actually synergize with heal and shield supports. This leads to...

What about the fact that most of the meta solo laners rely more on experience than they do on gold because they scale so hard with levels due to high base damages? They need solo lane experience to keep up. Would you change all of the champions in those roles to not get so much free base damage but instead get higher scalings? Change itemization for everything that isn't crit so that they can scale better with gold and go bot? Who's gonna take their place? Other solo laners who will keep their base damages but now have to be taken into consideration when balancing new AP scaling items? Switch marksman to have high stat increases from levels but have worse items and have them go mid?

Why were marksman so weak in early season 7 when they were still necessary? The fact they were still mostly mandatory should mean they were still overpowered, correct? Your original point, after all, was "if marksmen weren't so broken, why have they always been meta?"

There's a lot of nuanced factors that you're not considering. It's not that simple to flip the game on its ass completely just because you have a problem with the fact that the 3 marksmen subsets have been all you see bot for so long (even though that's not the problem in the first place).

Dude the differences between ahri and zed are massive compared to the zero diversity you have in botlane, and that's even ignoring how different mages are compared to auto attacking bot laners.

The marksmen subsets you mention are insanely similar compared to the variety seen in top lane and even in mid lane. That's literally why RIOT has said they want more diversity bot lane.

Pretending there is class diversity bot lane is hilarious. At this point our responses are pointless because you think the meagre diversity of marksmen is acceptable or that they're somehow drastically different from each other and I don't.

Riot apparently does not either since they point out the lack of diversity and want for other champions to be able to bot lane.

Bird GirIJan 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Dude the differences between ahri and zed are massive compared to the zero diversity you have in botlane, and that's even ignoring how different mages are compared to auto attacking bot laners.

The marksmen subsets you mention are insanely similar compared to the variety seen in top lane and even in mid lane. That's literally why RIOT has said they want more diversity bot lane.

Pretending there is class diversity bot lane is hilarious. At this point our responses are pointless because you think the meagre diversity of marksmen is acceptable or that they're somehow drastically different from each other and I don't.

Riot apparently does not either since they point out the lack of diversity and want for other champions to be able to bot lane.

I'm not gonna bother to explain why assassins and mages aren't any more distinct from each other than Jinx and MF are or than Kog and Lucian are. It just looks like we fundamentally disagree on that. That's fine, but what about the other things I mentioned? You're right that our responses are pointless because you keep ignoring mine. I just said let's assume you are right. That marksmen are all too similar to each other and it's not just simply that Riot cannot logically see the different subsets.

Now, what are you going to change to get something else down in bot lane? Can you please try at all to defend your initial point that marksmen being the only things showing up bot is solely because they are overpowered or is proof that they are overpowered? I'm all for more diversity bot, but you clearly can't have anything else bot before addressing most of the points I listed. Even if you nerfed marksmen to the ground and brought back something akin to early season 7 where they are clearly underpowered, they'll still be bot like they were in early season 7. How are you going to push them out without solving the other issues?

I hate to make assumptions about others, but it comes off as you skipping over those points because you don't know how to answer them and admitting to that would null your initial point.

Edit: My apologies. I was thinking about someone else that I replied to who made very similar comments. You might not have been insinuating that marksmen are the only things bot because they are too strong, but it felt heavily implied. If you were, then ignore this paragraph. If you weren't trying to imply that, I'm still curious as to what you think Riot could even do to get more diversity bot lane.

Also, I'd like to add a 6th point that all of the other roles besides supports contain champions with niche objectives. You don't always need a tank which is why they get replaced by bruisers sometimes. You don't always need a mage or assassin which is why they aren't in every game. You don't need them because their objectives aren't essential to winning (pick off easy targets etc). The marksmen aren't just needed because they are strong, but because the objective that they were designed for is so much more important or irreplaceable (someone who can reliably DPS epic monsters and enemies, someone who can reliably take towers, and someone who synergizes with support kits).

EssenceOfPooJan 26, 20182 votes

I also have disagreement with him on fundamental levels. he claims that marksman ALWAYS have the highest damage in teamfights. he's also too hung up on the term AD carry and its semantics, probably because he thinks they do the most damage in teamfights all the while overlooking assassins, AD fighters, etc. While they might deal the highest damage from a theoretical standpoint (because of the lack of variables), that doesn't always hold true in practical scenarios.

he does this all the while ignoring the multitude of reasons why DPS ranged champions are the ones who got bot lane (for reasons you and I mentioned). To be honest, I'm interested in seeing the diversity plan that riot is planning but my hope is that they don't try to force marksmen out of bot lane to accommodate the diversity choices which very likely would force marksmen out of the game entirely. If they're going to do this, they should still have marksman as the ideal class to go bot lane and the diversity options only as alternatives,like ziggs in season 6 (or was it 5) was an alternative.

Forcing diversity for the sake of diversity would be unhealthy.

vgamedudeJan 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I also have disagreement with him on fundamental levels. he claims that marksman ALWAYS have the highest damage in teamfights. he's also too hung up on the term AD carry and its semantics, probably because he thinks they do the most damage in teamfights all the while overlooking assassins, AD fighters, etc. While they might deal the highest damage from a theoretical standpoint (because of the lack of variables), that doesn't always hold true in practical scenarios.

he does this all the while ignoring the multitude of reasons why DPS ranged champions are the ones who got bot lane (for reasons you and I mentioned). To be honest, I'm interested in seeing the diversity plan that riot is planning but my hope is that they don't try to force marksmen out of bot lane to accommodate the diversity choices which very likely would force marksmen out of the game entirely. If they're going to do this, they should still have marksman as the ideal class to go bot lane and the diversity options only as alternatives,like ziggs in season 6 (or was it 5) was an alternative.

Forcing diversity for the sake of diversity would be unhealthy.

Assassins never outdamage similarly performing adcs. This is an absolute joke of a statement. Assassins have constricted burst windows and have to choose their targets, adcs have loads of sustained damage and are constantly pumping it out in a fight.

Who do you think will have the highest damage to champions numbers in a game?

Bird GirIJan 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Assassins never outdamage similarly performing adcs. This is an absolute joke of a statement. Assassins have constricted burst windows and have to choose their targets, adcs have loads of sustained damage and are constantly pumping it out in a fight.

Who do you think will have the highest damage to champions numbers in a game?

I don't know if it's worth getting into an armchair argument over stuff like this. There's too many factors to bother explaining right now, but I'll list just a few for fun. I'd agree that assassins at the moment are kind of bad (will have to wait and see what removal of relic does), but they have a multitude of reasons for why they can deal more damage than an ADC. Assassins have more control over the game early on and have a higher chance of snowballing with a kill. That leads into them naturally having a lead on marksmen in items and power etc. They suck right now though, so that doesn't apply.

Do me a favor though and check this out:

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend

What does the list look like? Well at the moment, you will see that it's a pretty good mix of mages and marksmen with a couple outlier roles and mages being slightly ahead. Mages have: range, safety, burst, utility, tankiness on marksmen. They're extremely powerful in scrappy 2v2/3v3 skirmishes and can still cause a terror in teamfights, holding their own weight against marksmen. I'm not saying mages are overpowered just because they end up dealing more damage per game. They feel pretty solidly balanced to me. However, it might be something to take into consideration when the role with more utility and less DPS is doing more damage than the role designed to do DPS. Just try to take a step back, and instead of being caught up on which role is stronger than the other, just worry about how you can exploit stuff within your own role. Ever since the locket buffs and the addition of redemption, even supports have extreme impact. Honestly, every role has good enough tools to carry. Except for assassins and bruisers atm. Press F to pay respects.

H1 H0w are YaJan 23, 20182 votes

Hate to break it to you but riot doesnt care about low elo

Yordle XayahJan 24, 20182 votes

I just out-cs'd an Ashe by over 110 CS by minute 25-30. I'm a Tristana player. Ashe was 1/5.

Enemy Singed just walked up to me on around 2.5k~ HP and nearly murdered me. I was dealing no damage to the character. We lost that game, if you wanna talk about unfair...

Now come the downvotes :(

DisembarkJan 24, 20184 votes

Most of the people that post this shit on boards have never played ADC, or hell, even bot lane. Also its the same 15 people making the same posts every day, it's kind of ridiculous.

At this point people just make a new thread stating the exact same shit, and get upvoted by the exact same people. Then they're like "look, front page is flooded with x content". Like no shit, each post has 30-50 upvotes and each one says the EXACT SAME THING. It's literally the same level of support if there was one thread with 30-50 upvotes.

Yordle XayahJan 24, 20182 votes

Also its the same 15 people making the same posts every day

https://imgur.com/8CDGN6f

You made my evening...

anmyauntieonpoJan 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Most of the people that post this shit on boards have never played ADC, or hell, even bot lane. Also its the same 15 people making the same posts every day, it's kind of ridiculous.

At this point people just make a new thread stating the exact same shit, and get upvoted by the exact same people. Then they're like "look, front page is flooded with x content". Like no shit, each post has 30-50 upvotes and each one says the EXACT SAME THING. It's literally the same level of support if there was one thread with 30-50 upvotes.

You're an idiot. I tried out Vayne and Ezreal and dominated. It's actually unfair. The problem is I don't want to put in the time to get good at those champs. Its not fun to me.

Bird GirIJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're an idiot. I tried out Vayne and Ezreal and dominated. It's actually unfair. The problem is I don't want to put in the time to get good at those champs. Its not fun to me.

Good job. You tried the most meta ADCs and dominated with them in a tiny sample size in a very low ELO where anything is possible. Reminds me of when I realized that all assassins are broken because I tried out Katarina and won two games really hard. Not gonna bother learning assassins though. I'd rather blame it on them and complain and sit in bronze than try to learn how to deal with them.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 24, 20183 votes

Let's just ignore all the master/challenger players complaining for years how overpowered botlane is and even now people try to deny it's the case. I'm very sorry that even with how overpowered adcs are right now you still can't play them. Unfortunately an ADCs powercurve rises with your mechanics.

Bird GirIJan 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Let's just ignore all the master/challenger players complaining for years how overpowered botlane is and even now people try to deny it's the case. I'm very sorry that even with how overpowered adcs are right now you still can't play them. Unfortunately an ADCs powercurve rises with your mechanics.

Sources for this? I'm genuinely curious about exactly how many master/challenger players are saying this and where you're hearing this from.

Daddy AntsJan 24, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I just out-cs'd an Ashe by over 110 CS by minute 25-30. I'm a Tristana player. Ashe was 1/5.

Enemy Singed just walked up to me on around 2.5k~ HP and nearly murdered me. I was dealing no damage to the character. We lost that game, if you wanna talk about unfair...

Now come the downvotes :(

The fact that you let a melee reach you as Tristana is disturbing.

Yordle XayahJan 24, 20181 votes

Are you kidding?... You think I didn't try to push him, to kite him, to jump away and stay in safe places like being under tower and behind my front line while attacking? You think he cares I did any of those? We're just gonna sit here and pretend he doesn't have tools in his kit made to close the distance between him and whatever target he picks?? I didn't say he even killed me, I think you're missing the point here but that's ok. Typical Boards response.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 24, 20183 votes

^ No way in hell a singed ever gets close to a tristana. It would be pathetic to watch what tristana does to a singed.

PreShotJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The fact that you let a melee reach you as Tristana is disturbing.

The worst part is hes Gold and that happen.

LongtowelJan 25, 20182 votes

Well if you change the game for low elo, then the game is also changed in high elo. That’s not fair either.

I think this is just the state of the game we are in. People feed and they feed hard. In low elos peoples performances fluctuate a lot and is never consistent from game to game, that includes myself. When you’re feeling good, you are taking good trades, not missing CS, keeping an eye out for mini maps and remembers to ward. When you are tilted or feeling down then all that goes out the window and you try to go for that difficult lvl 3 kill. You die, and you come back, tries again and dies. You forget to play safe or your support still thinks they can go in.

It goes on from there.

I don’t think it’s a problem with game design. It’s inevitable that this happens a low elos. Changing the game balance won’t help, since it will just make the game that much more frustrating at higher elos, where your plays aren’t rewarded.

Athenes LuluJan 23, 20181 votes

but everyone loves tanks and mages as supports!

no way botlane would snowball like that, right?

DraehlJan 23, 20181 votes

Mages and tanks are both just too strong, leaving most stuff in the middle feeling left out. I've been able to play my backup supports: Zyra and Nautilus pretty effectively, but my main champion Bard just feels so easy to take down in this meta, despite his being a higher skillcap champ that I'm better with than the other two.

Ariel the CruelJan 24, 20181 votes

I play Twisted Treeline. Our problem is top lane. XD

HeyBigGuyHeyBuddJan 27, 20181 votes

The game does feel like a roll of the dice to be honest. Most of my (Low to mid SIlver) games are dependent on which lane snowballs the most. IVe said this many times, the new runes are oppressive