Make Black Cleaver and Yomuus melee only

Herim·Jun 26, 2016·7 votes·1,454 views

Please and thank you.

17 Comments

ValyrianBladeJun 26, 20163 votes

Black Cleaver: only problem here is Gnar to be honest. Otherwise melee only should be mostly fine, as ranged has the last-whisper items to go to instead. Ranged champions' ability to apply the stacks (in certain cases especially) is too strong. They could make do by making the shred be less for ranged champs, but Gnar would still have a problem.

Youmuu's: Completely bonkers idea. Ghostblade has been core on a selection of ADCs since forever. It's more of a range item than melee item. There's also nothing inherently wrong with it: AD, armor pen, and then AS and MS on the active. Those are all stats that marksmen want too. I see no reason why they can't use it.

Spice DrakeJun 26, 20163 votes

But Gnar could still build the item because he's melee and ranged

ValyrianBladeJun 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spice Drake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1rPIjt37,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-26T01:12:57.285+0000)

But Gnar could still build the item because he's melee and ranged

He could build it, but he wouldn't benefit from any of the stats when in little form. Which would make the item really garbage on him, and it's currently his core.

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver: only problem here is Gnar to be honest.

then code a fucking exception into his kit. or make him just work without cleaver.

youmuus was never a marksman item. it was the classical melee adc core item that then got changed to also allow ranged adc use it. which was a terrible idea, because marksmen with that thing were usually broken. then they changed it into an assassin item.

im still waiting for riot to change item 3147 to melee only. they promised theyd do it if there were adc who developed to be a problem with the item.

well, mf is using it for cheese 1 shots with her q right now. so were all waiting.

NekusenJun 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver: only problem here is Gnar to be honest. Otherwise melee only should be mostly fine.

they could make Gnar 's attack "melee" like Thresh 's

MarcsharkJun 26, 20162 votes

Thresh 's attacks are not melee, they are just not projectiles. Second, by making Gnar 's autos in mini-form melee he would be able to use item 3077 on his autos which would quickly become a nightmare. This is an absolutely horrendous idea. Also what about a champion like Urgot where item 3071 is his second core item?

EDIT: This isn't even touching on item 3142 because the idea that it should be melee only is absolutely insane and I will not even entertain this notion.

CerealBoxOfDoomJun 26, 20163 votes

careful what you whish for

if ranged can't kill melee you will see some ugly metas return

NitrosJun 26, 20162 votes

Making things ranged and melee only is a terrible way to balance a game, that is why riot has slowly moving away from this trend. Also why would that be necessary for youmuus and cleaver?

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Making things ranged and melee only is a terrible way to balance a game

do you have acual arguments against this? because i have a whole lot for making them melee.

starting with ranged champions usually using bruiser items to greater effect than the bruisers theyre intended for. remember what happened with steraks?

Magus PolarisJun 26, 20162 votes

I remember Sterak's. It was too good, too good on everyone, which is both why it was built on ranged champions and why it was nerfed. Remember how it was changed to share CD with Hexdrinker because melee assassins were building it as well?

Critmaster GarenJun 26, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magus Polaris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1rPIjt37,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-26T02:01:44.710+0000)

I remember Sterak's. It was too good, too good on everyone, which is both why it was built on ranged champions and why it was nerfed. Remember how it was changed to share CD with Hexdrinker because melee assassins were building it as well?

it was made specifically as a juggernaut item.

when they nerfed steaks, all juggs had it as one of their core items at the time. just as intended, and none of them was too strong with it.

its a bullshit excuse. they nerfed it because graves, other marksmen and assassins stacked it with maw. the item wasnt too strong on everyone, just on specific champions it was never intended for. and a major portion of them was ranged.

they could have fixed most of the issues by just making it melee only and change some assasin scalings around to scale off bonus ad instead of total ad, so they would get less out of the item.

Magus PolarisJun 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1rPIjt37,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-26T02:06:21.225+0000)

it was made specifically as a juggernaut item.

when they nerfed steaks, all juggs had it as one of their core items at the time. just as intended, and none of them was too strong with it.

its a bullshit excuse. they nerfed it because graves, other marksmen and assassins stacked it with maw. the item wasnt too strong on everyone, just on specific champions it was never intended for. and a major portion of them was ranged.

they could have fixed most of the issues by just making it melee only and change some assasin scalings around to scale off bonus ad instead of total ad, so they would get less out of the item.

Yes, it was a juggernaut. It was made to be a good juggernaut item.

And what happens when a really good item is made and it's strong, so strong that it's bought as a core item all the time "just as intended" and was made with only some expectation that only a certain subset of characters will get it? The same thing that always happens in League. People will buy it on other champions who can use it precisely because it was made that strong "just as intended". It was bought because it was that strong, regardless of what unfounded expectations there were and your examples demonstrate this.

They aren't a exception, they are a symptom.

And your idea for a fix would make it worse. Now Riot may be on-board for that sort of thing, change everything except for the poorly implemented idea that is causing the issue. They might be down to rehash the Cinderhulk and Feral Flare again. But really what you are suggesting is causing tons of balance issues, changing the scaling patterns of the dozens of non-juggernaut champions who could buy Steraks, ignore that it is too strong, and generally balance the entire game around Sterak's Gage. And doing this all simply for the sake of not just simply tuning one, single, shitty item. And to what end? That is just mad.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 26, 20162 votes

yes please

Reaper ReviewJun 26, 20162 votes

Jayce, Gnar, Varus, and Urgot all make use of Cleaver in a non-problematic way and are ranged/shifting champions. (At least I think Varus does. His mid build is identical to the average Jayce build, right? AD/ArPen caster-type build.)

Funny thing is, that's basically what Lucian and MF are doing. Using functionally the same build Jayce has used since forever, only without needing a Manamune because they don't really have mana issues.

EedatJun 26, 20162 votes

Make bruisers and assassins even stronger? What? Why on earth would we do that?

NekusenJun 26, 20161 votes

item 3071 yes, because adcs are not supposed to build HP and they already have options for armor shred. item 3142 no, because there is no reason for it to be melee only, one of the few items Jhin can put to good use.

EWBS MithileshJun 26, 20161 votes

whenever riot changes things in the patch, smart players dont go on the boards and complain. they go and innovate with the items available and find a new way: adapt. BC ghostblade is the player response to removal of tier 3 boots, which is what gave adcs the ability to kite. rip furor. BC ghostblade just so happens to be really good on obama Lucian , which is why he rised to the top