What's supposed to be Heimerdinger's THING, and how could he be better designed around that?

Solideus··2 votes·881 views

Heimerdinger I just think he could be built with sharper intent, and have his less interesting strengths exchanged for something that supported his more interesting and more appreciated playstyles better. While I don't see him very often anymore and he's probably is pretty balanced, It'd be interesting to see if his kit could be a more engaging for him and his opponents.

Why doesn't he have more tangible ways to interact with his turrets, for example? Maybe some poking power, or something else, could be exchanged with some way for him to more actively protect his turrets. Why are his turrets so easy to poke down? Maybe instead they should be "captured" away in melee, in exchange for some windows of cease-fire that allows the opponent to do so. Why is a design for reactive deployment of turrets quickly favored over pre-planned, strategic use of them? Maybe Heimer would be more interesting designed for a "slow crawl" down a lane, like in a TF2 Payload map. Those are just some examples of what I think could be interesting designs to discuss.

I don't play him much because he doesn't fit me particularly well, but I'd be interested to see a discussion on what is the most important parts of his design is perceived to be. If he was designed with more intent, maybe I'd like him more!

What do you think, vocal forumers?

9 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl4 votes

Heimerdinger specializes in stalling and sieging. If you have some late-game scaling on your team, Heimerdinger can shut down the entire midgame for them. I don't like him, largely because Heimer is very frustrating to play against, since his turrets can really sting, especially in the early game. His few hard counters (Ziggs, Lux, Syndra, Vel'Koz, etc.) are those who can outrange him and his turrets and destroy him from outside of his fortress of solitude.

Solideus1 votes

I think his stalling and his hard counters both are pretty big issues with his design. Putting his strengths into just sieging, rather than stalling, and evening out opponent's ability to play against him, regardless of their range, would both be great improvements for him. It'd be interesting to see how one would move power from stalling to sieging, and how one'd go about making melee and long-ranged champions equally equipped to fight his turrets.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

If I were going to make him more siege and less stall, I would boost his damage to minions and cut it to champoins, and perhaps make the laser beam like Zed's shuriken, with the towers as the shadows, obviously. It could also be interesting to let the rockets be used to hurt towers, although they'd need some SERIOUS damage nerfs. I think of Heimerdinger as a more static version of Azir; they both create death zones and shove their lanes, but Azir's mobility and repositioning means that he can outclass Heimerdinger pretty hard.

Solideus1 votes

More ways for him to interact with his turrets would be great. I also think it would be interesting if he was really good at taking down towers once he got to them, but was gated somehow by having to move his towers incrementally up the lane to do so, rather than just being able to run up and plonk his towers down once he has pushed to the turret.

Meep Man1 votes

If it aint broke dont fix it. Heimerdinger is fun to play as, yet currently frustrating to play against. This is mainly tied to his ungankability due to RQ. He may need some minor nerfs, but he is overall fine.

Solideus2 votes

If he is frustrating to play against that's a legitimate issue, and reason enough to fix whatever's causing that problem with him. Being balanced and being designed well are entirely different things.

I also suspect he's on the moderate end of "can't be strong enough to be a competitive pick because he'd be a detriment to the game", other than occasionally being a wildcard pick, maybe. That's also a valid concern, because Heimerdinger mains might want to see him played in competitive now and then.

Sonasaurous1 votes

I've only started playing the Dinger recently (and fell in weird love with the scientist hamster thing), and I've noticed a few things about him:

• Pretty good in just about any role. I've played him top, mid, support and one game (where I wasn't playing him) I had a Heimer jungle on my team that was pretty good. So he's pretty flexible.

• If he's in lane, all he does is freeze lane. Which is mildly entertaining if you're sitting there while the turrets farm for you (and apply on-hit effects of you buy such items) and the enemy starts getting frustrated at having to farm under turret.

• Pretty stupid safe from ganks. I've picked up kills from junglers jumping at my face only to be muddered by my turrets.

• When the enemy leaves lane to try and pick up kills elsewhere, their turret is gone.

• No one likes a roaming Heimer. Or rather, the enemy team hates roaming Heimer and your team may get pissy that your turrets steal farm.

• Oh yeah, he has other skills, too, and they're pretty strong. Too bad his E is on a forever cooldown because that's his nuke and/or stun ability of you can land it.

• Ultimate W is crazy stupid OP.

BUT

• Tanks don't give a flying duck about your turrets. Or your poke. Or you.

• Ranged characters (especially ranged mages who can blow up your turrets with one skill) are your worst nightmare. All game.

• To compensate for his stupid turrets, he's a one hit kill. Which is the same for every burst Mage, I guess.

Ultimately, I feel like Heimer is like Singed in which he can just push for days. The difference, though, is that if Heimer is jumped on he basically has to fight for his life or die, while Singed just runs away and slowly kills his chasers because poison. And Heimer's team fight capabilities aren't too bad. He can even initiate if he lands his Ult + E currently (which is still the hardest of his skills for me to land at all).

After playing Heimerdinger, it's easier for me to see his weaknesses (which I didn't think he had any prior to him being free the other week), and he really does have a lot of lane counters. I mean a lot. I think most of Heimer's success in lane comes from people's lack of experience fighting against him because you don't see him in game all that often.

But you know what? Whatever. He seems to win against Fizz, and I hate Fizz and his stupid broken damage stab and his stupid broken invincibility and stupid stupid hate stupid Fizz. So I'm happy.

Solideus1 votes

A really nice read, dude. If youdon't mind a few questions, I'm curious about some of your opinions.

  • What's his power fantasy; what's the thing you want to be able to do better than anyone else when you pick him?
  • What's the most fun way to play him?
  • In what scenario do you think he is the least fun to play against?
  • Did anything feel unintuitive about him when you started playing him?
  • Are there things he's good at that you'd be willing to give up if he was compensated in other, appropriate ways?
  • Specifically, what kind of weakness do you feel would be appropriate compensation, if he had less of a hard time with his current hard counters?

Also, yeah, Fizz is a really bad time.

Sonasaurous1 votes

Q&A, yay XD Mind you, I'm still an okay Heimer, there's a lot I still need to learn how to do with him.

What's his power fantasy; what's the thing you want to be able to do better than anyone else when you pick him?

When I pick Heimer, I pick him for a safe laning phase. There's comfort in knowing that I'm likely not going to die and can farm safely to the point where my farm is so good that I can transition easily into mid game without needing any early game kills to get there. Though, if the jungler is squishy (mostly in my games with him I've been against Lee Sins, because Lee Sin is Lee Sin) and tries to gank me, they realize too late that the little lasers do a lot of damage and, in the case of Lee Sin who uses his gap closer to get into the laser ring o' death, finds himself dying fairly quickly as he tries to run out. Mid-late game, mix the lasers with item 3116 and it's very effective. However, if I'm in an unfavorable matchup that makes my laser turret things useless, then I'm screwed over. Of course, there's another poke-centered playstyle you can play Heimer with in that situation, but I'm not very good at it and that's not how I want to play him.

What's the most fun way to play him?

For me, it's the lane freezing farm fest in mid lane. Mostly because I've been through enough abuse mid lane and it feels really good to get back at the oppressive mid laners by denying them farm. And if I force them to roam, then they will lose their tower. Heimer definitely has an advantage over the melee mid laners, but he's not particularly bad in most matchups. Then after the laning phase, Heimer can either stick with the team for pushing, splitpush by himself, or defend easily. His turrets also make securing dragon and baron very easy. I've been experimenting getting item 3512 and splitpushing two lanes for days, in which the portal goes, for example, bot lane, and then I go top while my team pushes mid. I dunno, maybe pushing and seizing towers is boring for most people, but that's what wins games XD

In what scenario do you think he is the least fun to play against?

If you're melee, the turrets will suck and you'll be farming under turret. Likewise, if you don't know what a Heimer is or what a Heimer does, then it's easy for him to exploit you. There's also an added bonus playing as Heimer as visually seeing the range of the turrets, so you can bait enemies to the edge of the range and they'll receive damage. Stunning enemies at the edge of the turret range is also effective since they take the turret damage along with the E damage and they can't do anything about it for a second, though the turret lasers are slow and can be dodged when the stun wears off.

Did anything feel unintuitive about him when you started playing him?

His W is the hardest skill for me to control. Regular W is an X-shaped skill where he fires a bunch of rockets at the cursor location. Or rather, they converge at the cursor location and then fire off in the opposite direction after the converge point. So, at max range all those rockets can hit one target for a snipe attack, and at min range it's more of a weaker AoE attack (still applies on-hit effects, though). Though it's still a skillshot and easy to miss/easy to dodge, and when you have quick casting turned on it can be confusing to figure out. Also it's easy to miss. Very easy to dodge. I miss this skill all the time. .-.

But then the Ultimate W doesn't do that converge thing (I've tried), it just goes straight in front of him in whatever direction you're pointing.

Then his E has a weird hitbox. Or maybe champions have a weird hitbox. Either way, his E is supposed to stun enemies if they're at the center of where it lands, but they're slowed if they're within the range of impact. In which I could've sworn the animation would show my bomb thing landing directly on the enemy, but they would be slowed instead of stunned. The Ultimate E just throws the bomb and it bounces three times in a row, with the same properties as the regular E.

Are there things he's good at that you'd be willing to give up if he was compensated in other, appropriate ways?

I'd happily sacrifice some of his turret-laser-thing stats for a passive that was actually meaningful. His current passive increases the HP Regen of his turrets and allies (and not him, I assume). Regardless, the passive doesn't even seem noticeable and seems completely irrelevant by mid game, especially when the adc can two-shot the turrets anyway. I don't have any ideas for what a better passive for him might be, but his current passive if very underwhelming to the point where it might as well not be there at all.

Specifically, what kind of weakness do you feel would be appropriate compensation, if he had less of a hard time with his current hard counters?

Unfortunately, Heimer is pretty balanced that weakening one aspect of him to strengthen another would probably take away his potential ability to deal with counters. We know how Riot works. Look at Cassiopeia, for example. They moved all of her damage into her E and centralized her damage around that one attack. If they did that to Heimer they would either make him completely invested in his turrets, or make his turrets so useless that there's no point to them. Like, I mentioned earlier that he can be more of a poke lane opponent rather than playing in a turret safe zone. Theoretically, if Heimer is against, say, Annie, who can knock out his turrets from a safe range, then instead of maxing his Q first for his turrets he could max W first for a stronger lane poke (or E if you're really good at landing that broken hitbox skillshot. Likewise, as support, you should max E first for the CC) since his turrets would be, in this case, less effective and free gold to the enemy. Except that would be a more aggressive high-risk high-reward playstyle and more exhaustive on his mana. But, at the cost of his turret power, Heimer is building more for bursting with W and E.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Heimer is one of those champions who can still be flexible in his playstyle depending on the situation, which is a good thing and Riot should stop specializing every single champion. So nerfing one aspect of him to buff another would make him more biased to one type of playstyle over the other.

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