At this point I'm all for the shop auto opening if I get hit by a Zoe bubble

Geneseid·Feb 20, 2018·59 votes·2,415 views

I'm basically already dead anyway ...

62 Comments

FOR JUSTICEFeb 20, 201833 votes

Come tomorrow and you can cleanse drowsy. And i think shes losing q damage.

FairyfleurFeb 21, 201814 votes

She's losing teleport from minion drops, 20% of all of her Q's damage, waveclear, and I think a lot more.

ProfDrDeathFeb 21, 20183 votes

The question will be:

Will she drop below 40% winrate? I give it a 50-50...

Recon1212Feb 21, 20183 votes

Probably, i imagine this nerf is gonna make her more player based, not anyone can just pick her up and hit an E and win. People are gonna need to try, which has been absent from her kit since launch.

Crede777Feb 21, 20185 votes

I'm not contesting the fact that Zoe is obscenely strong, but I think that this will become a case of "why bother?" If people need to try and Zoe's damage is long-range skillshot reliant without the huge payoff then players will just pick other AP mids who can do as much / more damage but easier.

Which is why the whole "this champion is mechanically difficult so they need a higher power output" philosophy by Riot is flawed. Yes, some champions are more mechanically complex/difficult, but the difficulty is never high enough to warrant a huge power output. A large number of players quickly become proficient at the champion and then the numbers show that the champion is just oppressive. So they get tuned down and then the players migrate to the next best option.

Recon1212Feb 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I'm not contesting the fact that Zoe is obscenely strong, but I think that this will become a case of "why bother?" If people need to try and Zoe's damage is long-range skillshot reliant without the huge payoff then players will just pick other AP mids who can do as much / more damage but easier.

Which is why the whole "this champion is mechanically difficult so they need a higher power output" philosophy by Riot is flawed. Yes, some champions are more mechanically complex/difficult, but the difficulty is never high enough to warrant a huge power output. A large number of players quickly become proficient at the champion and then the numbers show that the champion is just oppressive. So they get tuned down and then the players migrate to the next best option.

I agree, her kit was made extremely poorly. They made her in such a way that she's only really good if her damage is high enough, but if it is then shes too easy to really play against. However, if shes too weak on the damage side, her kit doesn't have what it takes to make up for it. Really the problem lies in her E. Her whole kit really revolves around hitting E and then getting dmg off, or being able to hit her Q with no assistance.

With these nerfs the only reason I can imagine people still picking her, is if a) they enjoy her and are proficient enough to make her work or b) team needs the large range CC that her E gives, and in cases the damage output on her Q if viable. But, I totally see other champs being prioritized over her granted these nerfs hit hard enough.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 21, 20181 votes

The problem is her W not being a reliable and consistent spell which means they have to put so much power in her other two basic abilities.

Recon1212Feb 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The problem is her W not being a reliable and consistent spell which means they have to put so much power in her other two basic abilities.

See its a cool and innovative move, I just feel they should have toned it down, made that her passive some how and out something else into her W. If they did that then they could tone down the dmg like you said, and it would make her whole kit more personal, instead of just a sheen passive as her passive.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

Fairly likely, every silver idiot that cant land a skillshot still wants to play her. Once her reputation goes away, her playrate drops, and is limited to people who can hit a tank with a skillshot 4 teemos wide, then it will get back to the 47% territory. It's never ever going to be good for most of the player base, as her bouncy, fiddly kit isn't the sort of stuff that low elo mids can use well.

Iffy JarlFeb 21, 201819 votes

I just love when a Zoe threads the needle and hits me with a bubble and my team parts like the Red Sea before Moses so the Q can hit me from downtown.

Lord of MathFeb 20, 20188 votes

I regularly find myself jumping into the path of her q when a teammate fell assleep. Generally speaking after doing so, they do the same for myself and the rest of the team, I even did it as draven once for my sion.

ImGodlyatYasuoFeb 20, 20182 votes

Its common courtesy of course! Zoe shouldnt be able to one shot anyone with Q nerfs coming so landing the e IS NEEDED GIVING nice counter play

2Charmnot2CharmFeb 21, 20182 votes

I do too, and then i get mad when it's enough to one shot me without her E. I don't mind giving up my life as a support to help the team but ffs this is ridiculous.

FOR JUSTICEFeb 21, 20188 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/594/687/59a.jpg

HäxelFeb 20, 20185 votes

At this point you should maybe think about picking summoner 1 , item 3140 / item 3139 or have an allie picking item 3222 .

T4underboltFeb 20, 20188 votes

At this point of life you should be able to know that 210 or 90 seconds is more than 5 seconds.

Furious DelishaFeb 20, 201817 votes

You get hit by every bubble? Maybe the issue isn't exactly with Zoe on this one.

HäxelFeb 21, 20183 votes

yea. Also 5s lul. Bubble has at max lv a 14s cd. Even with max cdr that isn't a 5s cd.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20186 votes

Not if it hits something. On release the ability refunded a large portion of it's cooldown if it struck an enemy.

HäxelFeb 21, 20181 votes

yea, but then we would be again that someone gets hit by every boubble? That is not a problem of zoes kit but about how you play.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20183 votes

There is still the issue of the safety it gives her.

She can sit on it and fuck up anyone who tries to catch her.
She can fish for successful E's and just sit back and play safer while it is on cooldown
When she does land E, her subsequent Q does so much damage that is then unavoidable, that it feels completely unfair for the player who is forced to sit there and watch it happen.
And lastly, if she does land E, you get little opportunity to fight back. And because she landed E it will be off cooldown quickly so if you try to engage on her to trade back... well good luck, because she can just sit tight and fuck you up for trying to catch her.

HäxelFeb 21, 20182 votes

So we have , , , , , for completly safty.
We have for protection to reducie incoming damage, get out of q range directly or hiding behind other targets.
Yes, we have other targets like tanks.
We also have shields/heals by allies or some protection like a tham w.
If anyone wnats to catch ehr sure in a 1v1 it gets a little hard but in a 1v2 by a gank she neither has the cc to shut both down nor real mobility cause her ult is just a short positionswitch.
That sitting around all time is just some illusion cause ina teamfight if she missed or just hit tanks her team will probably loose the teamfight cause she just has this one combo and sitting around doesn't help much if the average midlaner has 4 damagespells, sometimes less (zilean double q), sometimes more (brand with passive).
She already has a negative winrate in average elo. Like only challenger and Proleague should complain, she literaly losoes more games from bronze to dia. And next patch is more of a hard nerf as a buff to her too. Ofcourse winrates don't show how friendly a kit is but there is just to much complain about her all time and if you complain after the 8.4 changes still then you have a problem. Cause listing just zoe strenghts is dumb: every champion has strenghts that you could list with 4 points in a list.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20182 votes

I'm talking about laning phase. Not teamfights and skirmishes.
If her winrate sucks then she needs to be made more powerful in ways that are not frustrating for opponents. I'm all for Zoe buffs, as long as they don't increase the pain points that players experience when laning against her.
I respect your last point, because I understand that listing a champion's strengths can be misleading. But I did list strengths in this manner for a very specific reason, and I did not simply list all of her strengths. When you are playing against her, your window for counterplay is E. Aside from that, you don't get to react to her. And that's bullshit.

HäxelFeb 21, 20181 votes

aha. So if you are not talking about skirmishes but about lane, can i compare her to other midlaners? For examepl lux: Zoe hits e, you have some reaction time to go to a safe spot or could possible die with long range q. Lux hits q, you are rooted, e ult passive auto, possibility you died. Diffrences: Zoe e is more aoe but Lux q still goes threw 2 targets. Lux e is more aoe as zoe q. Zoe e lets you even react after landing. It is not a stun, root or knockup.

I can understand things that make maybe zoe kidna frustrating to play against: Her randomness w with items and spells like heal and redemption (at elast gunblade got removend and tp is next). Her insane range with rq that has lower cd as a luxult and especialy anoying outside of midlane in skirmishes or if she roams another lane surprisingly. But her e during the laningphase? Thats not realy something special.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20181 votes

Zoe E is much easier to hit. And unlike Lux, Zoe can chunk you for most of your HP even pre-lvl 6.

It's not the E alone. It's the combination of her E and her Q. Q is supposed to be skill expressive. But it doesn't have any counterplay if she is just fishing for successful Es before she tries to land it. Also the burst is stronger and available earlier in the game.

Frost1c3Feb 21, 20181 votes

assassins kill zoe before the cc applies and they could qss it

*This is true and irritating, but means she has little pressure (nobody can see her) and can be dealth with by flanking an assassin/split pusher with mobility (Kayn, Fizz, Jax, Jayce ect)

*Agree with this, she is unhealthy in this aspect, but that's more her Q damage being super strong

*She does push mid towards very specific champs (Galio, Jayce , Xerath, malz ect)

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20182 votes

Assassins sure, but divers? Bruisers? And god forbid, mages (such as Ahri) that she's laning against? QSS is only just now being changed to more fully counteract the cc. Before patch 8.4 it was half/half, you had to choose whether to ditch the slow so you could re-position somewhere safer for the cc, or wait for the cc and cleanse it after it put you to sleep. It wasn't a very good solution.

Lack of pressure in-between doesn't matter as much because if the bubble fails to hit something it can still sit in an area to deny enemies that zone. It pressures opponents in different ways.

Q damage is super strong, but it's also stronger because her E boosts the damage dealt to the target with the next spell hit. They need to nerf her Q and/or nerf her E, and then give her a more consistent E and maybe more damage on her passive. IMO this would even out a lot of the problems she is causing.

Laning against her you better be ready to keep your brain running at 110% the entire fucking laning phase, because if you slip up even once you can kiss your health goodbye and go find a safe place to recall.

Frost1c3Apr 8, 20181 votes

I know this is a bit late but I do agree that laning against her is pretty shit, that said this generally applies to most poke laners (xerath, jayce, velkoz, old azir ect) after the nerfs she's down to 47% winrate, she is the new irelia now, her play style is very unhealthy (sink or swim and has little counter-play) but at the end of the day nerfing (or buffing) isn't going to fix her, considering her creator I am unsupervised that she is this way, but sadly as a champ she is pretty much dead now.

KennysDreamGirlFeb 21, 20181 votes

She can fish for successful E's and just sit back and play safer while it is on cooldown

is this really a problem with zoe? you just described xeraths whole kit and the point of zoe tbh. just sit back in safety while your cds come back up

When she does land E, her subsequent Q does so much damage that is then unavoidable, that it feels completely unfair for the player who is forced to sit there and watch it happen. you just described any champions kit that has cc in it

And lastly, if she does land E, you get little opportunity to fight back. And because she landed E it will be off cooldown quickly so if you try to engage on her to trade back... well good luck, because she can just sit tight and fuck you up for trying to catch her.

this one i can agree on but theyre nerfing it next patch

InfernapeFeb 21, 20181 votes

To be fair though, when Xerath gets caught out, he's pretty much fucked unless he has flash and maybe barrier. His CC duration is dependant on distance. Tbh if her E duration depended on the distance it travelled, she would probably be less frustrating to play against.

KennysDreamGirlFeb 21, 20181 votes

i kinda agree with that e parr but if zoe is cought out she is fucked to if she misses and even then they still have a second to burst her. her biggest weakness is mobility

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20182 votes

If she misses? Dude if you're anywhere close to her a point blank E is not going to miss. Honestly, I think Sleepy Trouble Bubble should work like Nami's Q instead of like a skillshot.

Xerath's biggest weakness is mobility too. He can't just point blank divers and force them to sit still for 3 fucking seconds.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20181 votes

The difference is that Xerath has to wait until late game to chunk people for 50+% of their HP with one rotation. And his burst isn't so delayed like Zoe's. With the delay, players are forced to sit and watch their character lose more than 50% of their HP just because of one poorly juked E. It's super punishing, worse so because of the delay.

HäxelFeb 21, 20181 votes

Also this still gets upvotes? I talked also over the upcoming changes that were on the pbe, now on the pathnotes too: Zoe e no longer refunds cd if it struck an enemy.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20182 votes

The point remains. People are frustrated currently with the champion's current state. What is in the patch that comes tomorrow is irrelevant to peoples' experiences right now.

If we were talking about Zoe post-8.4-nerfs then I would say we should wait and see. But we're discussing how players feel, and discussing what frustrates us about Zoe in her current state.

HäxelFeb 21, 20181 votes

The title of ops thread is called: "At this point I'm all for the shop auto opening if I get hit by a Zoe bubble" Regarding that that thread was posted 1,2 days before a patch should include: hey, things get better next patch. Also the post was about her e, not her currently over all. That what we discussed: just optional. If you still think zoe will be anoying on 8.4 than this is your personal right. Everyone has a hatechampion and you and other people still can ban her in a 10 ban system. But just looking at the 8.4 changes should tell that zoe gets a lot less frustrated to play against (and mains get dumpstered by her already weak state). So if you think she will stay as the most anyoing, ban her. If you think zed, talon, teemo, fizz, patch 8.5 new champ will be more anyoing, let zoe open and learn to better deal with it.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The title of ops thread is called: "At this point I'm all for the shop auto opening if I get hit by a Zoe bubble" Regarding that that thread was posted 1,2 days before a patch should include: hey, things get better next patch.

Well like I said, it's the combo of E+Q that makes it so frustrating. The E wouldn't be so bad if it didn't guarantee you have to go back to base when a remotely good player lands it on you.

Also the post was about her e, not her currently over all. That what we discussed: just optional.

It's all one and the same. Her spell rotation begins with E, but the burst damage she gets to do with little counterplay because of it is what really makes it so punishing for opponents.

If you still think zoe will be anoying on 8.4 than this is your personal right. Everyone has a hatechampion and you and other people still can ban her in a 10 ban system. But just looking at the 8.4 changes should tell that zoe gets a lot less frustrated to play against (and mains get dumpstered by her already weak state). So if you think she will stay as the most anyoing, ban her. If you think zed, talon, teemo, fizz, patch 8.5 new champ will be more anyoing, let zoe open and learn to better deal with it.

Like I said before. I'm not talking about after the patch. I've even said somewhere that I would be in favor of Zoe buffs to help her along. I'm just against frustrating mechanics. Being forced to stand still and watch as she crams a paddle-star up your ass is not within my definition of fun.

If she has to use skill to land the paddle-star, and I get an opportunity to try to dodge or block it, then absolutely. that's interactive and fun. But if it's not... Fuck. That. Shit. The damage is way too fucking high for not being able to dodge it.

Have I made my stance clear yet?

T4underboltFeb 21, 20183 votes

Are you trolling right now or you really are that clueless. Her cooldowns are null and void. You can cleanse/qss one of many bubbles she throws but she can spam that ability anyway and your cleanse/qss doesn't come back any time soon.

RootloFeb 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

At this point you should maybe think about picking , / or have an allie picking .

She can spam it.

If you cleanse the first part, you will still go to sleep, if you cleanse the sleep, you will still take true damage from the next attack.

HäxelFeb 21, 20181 votes

Again, i talked over the upcoming patch: zoe e no longer refunds cd if it strucks an enemy and cleansing the ability now prevents from falling asleep.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

...and once that comes, we will likely have much less complaining as it will then work consistantly with all other forms of CC in the game, as we might expect it to.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

Next patch, those will ACTUALLY WORK!

ModAcademy KaynFeb 21, 20184 votes

And this is different from getting hit by any other Burst Mage CC, how? At least Zoe gives you time to retreat to a safer position, behind minions, or behind allies. If anything is to be complained about, it's her hitting you with Q without the bubble.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

I'll stop complaining when I can reasonably bodyblock that shot for my ally, when I'm building full tank, and not risk dying myself.

ReySolomonFeb 21, 20183 votes

My alistar blocked Q cause she E'd my ADC and guess what!!!

Alistar got owned WITH FULL HP MAN it was funny and tilting at the same time.

ampheonFeb 21, 20184 votes

If your alistar got one-shot by Zoe's Q then he prob wasn't building ANY MR whatsoever, or was extremely behind.

WolfeurFeb 21, 20182 votes

I call bullshit on this

The maximum damage a lvl 18 Zoe can pull with Q is 750 + 165% AP. That would require the star too travel 2550 units, way to far for her if she managed to land the bubble. And even then, if we assume she has around 700 AP, the ability would deal 1905 damage. If your Alistar doesn't have 1905 HP and some MR against a 700 AP Zoe, then he deserves his fate…