Will of Ancients and Hextech Gunblade

King Odin··26 votes·4,417 views

I am not sure if WOTA should be more of an independent item, or if it should stay as a cheap mid game alternative for Hextech until you reach full build. The Active and AD outweighs the 10% CDR for champions who use WOTA.

Jax Akali Mordekaiser EvelynnFizzKatarina These Champions all benefit more from item 3146 due to their AD Ratios/ Auto attack dependencies Vladimir Fiddlesticks These Champions benefit more from item 3152 as casters

As Mordekaiser I build item 3152 as my second item as it's cheaper and very powerful early game where as item 3146 is 900 gold more so I leave it for after my full build and replace item 3152 with it. I just feel that item 3152 can be more of a stand alone item and more powerful on it's own. I think it should have more AP than Hextech so it's more appealing to mage casters without AD ratios. So if you want to replace it with Hextech you lose AP to gain AD/Lifesteal/Slow and Active.

New [2935 Gold ]item 3152 100 AP, 10% CDR, 20% Spell Vamp

Current [2500 Gold ]item 3152 80 AP, 10% CDR, 20% Spell Vamp

Current [3400] item 3146 40 AD, 80 AP, 10% Life steal, 20% Spell Vamp UNIQUE: Deals 150 (+ 40% AP) magic damage and slows the target champion's movement speed by 40% for 2 seconds. 60 second cooldown. (700 range)

45 Comments

junglerboy166 votes

They want Spell vamp to remain unviable, because it is inherently unbalanceable and broken as a statistic. One way to keep it unviable is to make it so one option is so outlandishly overpriced that almost nobody gets it (gun blade) and the other is kept with moderately mediocre stats so that isn't that great even when you can get it early (WotA).

Spell vamp as a stat is something that has to be worked directly into a champion's kit, like Ahri's passive, or Cass's twin fang self heal, or Swains ultimate heal, which all heal for a flat amount + AP scaling, rather than actually scaling with damage dealt, because every single spell in the game is different unlike AAs and lifesteal, which is much healthier as a stat.

Spells can have sooooo many different variables in them that spell vamp is often beyond broken on a certain character and completely unreliable on another, thus their only solution (outside removing it, which they don't want to do because they'd have to rework several champions) is to leave it absolutely useless. Spells have different: range, cooldown, cost, width, AoE, targeting type, damage type, Damage application method, secondary effects, CC, personal utility, allied affects, and reliability (point and click vs skill shot vs PBAoE vs auto target). Lifesteal always works on everyone who buys it, because everyone has a physical damage auto attack that in a standard scenario always hits for the same damage as everyone else's if they have the same AD attacking the same target. Spell vamp doesn't.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Spellvamp is not nearly as broken as you make it out to be.

junglerboy163 votes

Not right now, because it is so underpowered that nobody uses it. Maybe you weren't around back when spell vamp was strong, but Champs like Akali, Katarina, and Mordekaiser were literally immortal as long as they could roll their face on their keyboard.

Spell vamp on a kit, like Morgana's passive, Ryze's ultimate, or other built in sources are totally balanceable, but an openly available source off spell vamp in it's current state (or the state it was in back when WotA was strong) is inherently broken.

Hercules Morse2 votes

Well said. Its exactly the same problem as tank items being just as good on bruisers - its not the intended group that benefits from it most. Obviously champions that do high damage, especially high burst damage, are going to benefit the most from it, and it gets reaaaally ugly when they stop having to worry about their own HP because they just need to combo someone to get most of it back.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well... WotA did gives the same stats and AP as it did before? just that now it gives CDR but the spell vamp isn't an Aura anymore

junglerboy161 votes

Spell vamp back when WotA had the aura and was considered strong also didn't have reduced effect for multi target, AoE, or DoT abilities. That is what made a Spell vamp aura strong then.

PalPlays1 votes

{quoted} They want Spell vamp to remain unviable, because it is inherently unbalanceable and broken as a statistic.

item 3165

junglerboy163 votes

I never said uncounterable, I said "unbalanceable and broken", which I detailed the reason for very clearly.

Sìel3 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Odarth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MGzYHrm,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-13T14:45:06.399+0000)

Jax Akali Mordekaiser EvelynnFizzKatarina These Champions all benefit more from item 3146 due to their AD Ratios/ Auto attack dependencies

YOU FORGOT Poppy HOW DARE YOU!?

DeusVult2 votes

Late game Q heals for 40% of your health

Rinky Dinky3 votes

Morde really loves that 10% cdr.

CDR is a really hard stat to itemize for him, unless you get item 3165 , which is only cost efficient if the passive is actually necessary.

TheRainInSpain3 votes

Will of the Ancient is fine. The entire point of it is that it gives a healthy amount of spell vamp with some extra utility damage. The issue with using one, or justifying its use is that other AP items increase damage much better and spell vamp is reduced by 66% if you use an AOE spell. Most mages are built on AOE spells, making spell vamp less useful versus raw AP or Liandry's/Void Staff.

Hextech Gunblade may need a slight buff somewhere, as it's a mixture of stats that can work on a number of champions, but you rarely see them build Hybrid anymore. Jax, Katarina, Kayle, Diana all can benefit. Jax builds Bork and TF and full tank. Kat goes full AP. Diana grabs Nashor's and full AP. Kayle can build like Diana or go full AD. Hybrid just isn't a thing anymore.

Azlagor1 votes

new**[3500]**item 3146 50AD, 80AP, 20% Life Steal, 20% Spell Vamp UNIQUE: Deals 100(+50%AD; +40%ap) magic damage and slows the target champions movementspeed by 40% for 2.5sec, 700range, 60sec cooldown, Basicattacks(on hit) and singletarget spells vs champions reduce the cd by 3sec, aoe by 1(or maybe 0.5)

Gunblade currently simply isn't worth it's gold for anyone but akali. 10% lifesteal is pathetic, cause lifesteal scales with you AA-dps, and you usually have a far lower physical AA-dps on a champion that uses gunblade compared to Bloodthirster or BotrK. I also think it doesn't give enough ad to really be a 'Hybrid' atm, it's usually build on ap champs that have some ad scalings, mostly with full ap rather than hybrid focused builds. with a bit more ad and lifesteal aswell as an ad-ratio on the active, it might become more attracktive for actuall hybrid bulds, or even for ad champs that want spellvamp and have atleast some ap-ratios.

King Odin4 votes

I strongly disagree, Hextech is currently very strong because of the spell vamp and Ability power whilst providing a small amount of bonus AD for AA/AD ratios. It is not supposed to be for AA dependant champions like BORTK or BT. It's for AD/AP Casters like Jax who benefit from both AA's and also have really powerful spells on a short cd.

If the lifesteal was more powerful then it would make it a core item on ADC's like Miss Fortune, Ezreal etc who have AP Ratios and short CD's. This would also provide them with spell vamp,life steal,AD, AP and a slow. This would in other words make them broken because they would be top tier duellists benefiting from every single stat from 1 item and also making them sustain gods.

Champion Skin1 votes

Though generally it isn't that great on Jax as it is rather expensive and usually the burst from Sheen procs and the movement speed from Trinity Force makes it better or the attack speed and great activate on BotRK makes it better though of course Jax would love to build all 3 of them.. but well he needs to build tanky after his one damage item (though he could build two damage items if he knows he will get to split push or if he knows he will get time/gold to build tanky before having to go into teamfights)

Azlagor1 votes

i don't think it would be stronger on adcs than blood thirster if buffed, and if hybrid ez and mf get viable and even on-pair with adc buits, why would that be bad? If not every carrie builts one of two builds, depending on useing trinity or not.... what champion would get hextech gunblade atm? I don't mean which champion can theoretically use it, but on which champion is it the best option? I can't think of any other champ than akali. Jax usually either goes tanky after trinity or gets a BotrK, Kayle works better with as/ap focus.... Right now, gunblade is in a bad spot and there is no reason to not buff it a little.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

the issue with buffing WotA is that it makes certain champs (cough Vlad) extremely oppressive in the early game when they're supposed to be weaker.

NorthernDruid1 votes

I think WotA could use one or both of 20 more AP (making it a 100+ AP item with CDR, which we no longer have (RIP DFG)) and 50% mana regen, which would make it a sort of contender with Morellonomicon/Athene's Unholy Grail in the mana regen+AP+CDR area, while having much less CDR and mRegen while giving you sustain in the form of spellvamp.

Even more amped up we could see something like

120 AP 15% CDR 20% Spellvamp

for a 4th (5th counting Seraph's Embrace) 120 AP item, and a heavy AP item with CDR (which we no longer have) and more than one item with x5% CDR (which the game is sorely lacking imo).

Heck, i'd love to see it with

100AP 15% CDR 20% Spellvamp Unique passive: some sort of mana-on-hit return thingy.

As it is currently, it doesn't really do anything useful unless you've got some other spellvamp to stack it with, or otherwise manage to end up with 10% CDR missing, need the sustain and can deal with the low AP..

Most of the time though, you're just gonna go with Gunblade if you want spellvamp because it gives you as much AP and spellvamp, but gets you some AD (which always help) and lifesteal (which is sorta neat) on top of the brilliant active.


The main problem with spellvamp in general, is that it requires you to hit too many abilities, and for most mages their good spells go off too early in the battle for there to be much effect from it, unless you can stack oodles (with innate spellvamp like Morgana or Akali) or if you have another good way of proccing it (like Jax with his ult proccs and short CD AP scaling abilities).

King Odin1 votes

Can't have another 120 AP item since we have item 3285 now tho. I would not buff the CDR as it would make Vladimir and Mordekaiser really oppressive early game

NorthernDruid2 votes

Probably right about the AP, 100 sounds much more reasonable than 120.

I dunno about the CDR though, because unless you have a specific set of runes, any offensive mage is not gonna be missing 10% CDR. They're gonna be missing 15% (after morellonomicon/grail) and picking it up through lucidity boots (or they're gonna run 5% from runes or overcap or undercap, depending i guess).

In my opinion, the game needs more item with 5%-ending CDR. because one of the basic setups in the game if you want to play an offensively slanted caster, sets you up to have excactly 5%.

They could of course tweak the mastery, or replace it, or what have you. But adding a splash of 5% ending CDR items to the game would benefit caster itemization a bit (i'm actually kinda surprised they didn't do this with the new Black Cleaver).

Champion Skin5 votes

5% CDR boots enchantment Go XD

NorthernDruid3 votes

That... would be the sweetest thing ever.

best boot enchant.

Champion Skin1 votes

Just sign here.. here and here and you will lose your soul... ehh I mean you will get your new boot enchantment yes...

It Hertz When IP7 votes

I don't like the idea of adding mana regen... Vlad, Kennen, etc already have a limited enough pool of AP items that wouldn't waste their gold on a useless (for them) stat without having their sustain item join the ranks.

I'd say boost the AP on it, make it more relevant stat-wise for a full build. 100AP sounds reasonable without infringing on the 120AP Club's territory.

NorthernDruid2 votes

good point.

I think the best buff to it would be +20 AP (and +5%CDR, but that's mostly my dissatisfaction with the lack of items in the game which syncs up with the required offensive caster mastery which grants 5% CDR)

It Hertz When IP2 votes

I usually use item 3158 for that, 15% CDR.

NorthernDruid1 votes

My point being that that's the only option when you don't have the necessary runes (or really high investment into the utility mastery tree).

That really should not be the case.

Really, REALLY should not be the case.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

If I'm playing Vlad or Morde I run 10% CDR from Runes and Masteries and then get a WotA. 20% CDR is more than enough with their low ability cooldowns. Better off getting Sorcs for early damage.

Black Coffee 6661 votes

gun blade should give better stats but less spell vamp. it doesnt really make sense for one to essentially be a better, more expensive version of the other

Gunblade (current) revolver (1200) + cutlass (1400) + 800g = 3400 +40 attack damage +80 ability power +10% life steal Passive UNIQUE: +20% spell vamp UNIQUE: Reload: Your basic attacks (on hit) and single-target spells against champions reduce the cooldown of this item by 3 seconds. Active UNIQUE: Deals 150 (+ 40% AP) magic damage and slows the target champion's movement speed by 40% for 2 seconds. 60 second cooldown. (700 range)

revolver fix? tome (435) + tome (435) + 275g = 1200g +45 ability power Passive UNIQUE: +10% spell vamp

Gunblade (fix?) revolver (fix) (1200) + cutlass (1400) + 1200g = 3800 +70 attack damage +70 ability power +10% life steal Passive UNIQUE: +10% spell vamp UNIQUE: Reload: Your basic attacks (on hit) and single-target spells against champions reduce the cooldown of this item by 1 second. Active UNIQUE: Deals 100 (+40% AP / + 40% bonus AD ) magic damage and slows the target champion's movement speed by 40% for 2 seconds. 60 second cooldown. (700 range)

good hybrid item

Doctor President1 votes

Your fix would make gunblade a terrible buy. You gutted the stats AND raised the total cost.

Black Coffee 6661 votes

actually ya youre right, maybe raise both to being 80 bonus damage and raise some scaling on the active?

Sirsir1 votes

Actually they just changed it to be for mages with AD scaling in their kits, like Mordekaiser Akali Katarina

They toned down the AD and Lifesteal and added AP and Spellvamp

SpiritGear1 votes

go Spellvamp Ahri to the rescue

Hulking Elf1 votes

used to get item 3152 it had an aura that granted you and allies nearby 20% spellvamp and was essential on the tankier mages or just good if you build an aura support it buffed all the team simmilar to item 3050 and item 3105

Champion Skin1 votes

And if you had two on your team who benefited from it and built it you could both get 40% Spell Vamp when you were together... Though it did make Vlad a bit sad that it didn't work with his W (but then again he usually didn't use it to deal damage with so whatever I guess)

SwordGrunt1 votes

I think they're fine as they are

I still find myself buying WOTA on Mordekaiser more often than Gunblade simply for the 10% CDR which is huge

Gunblade is stronger, but more expensive, sure you can consider it a straight upgrade from WOTA as its other stats outclass the CDR, but buying a Cutlass is often sub-par on many AP champions that can use it too

Saianna1 votes

Imo WoTa need spellvamp aura. Like base non aura 10% spellvamp And Aura 5% + 1% per 100 ap

That way champions relying on SV (Vlad) won't become even more scary in late game, but it'll help their mage teammates to heal that.. 100~hp or so in teamfight.

What'cha think?

Drackolus1 votes

Old WoTA used to be 50ap with an aura that granted 30 ap and 20 spellvamp.

Saianna1 votes

Ofc i know. Didn't touch ap or cdr at all because i believe all it needs is SV aura. Nothing more.

Drackolus1 votes

If it were an aura, I would probably build it every single game with Soraka. I would love to have that and item 3504 at the same time. The problem with auras is that they're "invisible power." As an aura lover I hate that it's not a healthy thing - it feels useless but is actually quite powerful.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Cass would get reeeeeeeal funky with buffed up Wota. So buff it.

67chrome1 votes

I am not sure if WOTA should be more of an independent item, or if it should stay as a cheap mid game alternative for Hextech until you reach full build.

Cheap mid-game item, 100%.

Spell vamp currently has 2 main issues for why you wouldn't get it:

  1. if you're so ability-reliant you're going spell vamp over life steal, running OoM is really, really bad. Mana sustain > HP sustain during the lanning phase of most champions that could make use of spell vamp. This favors a cheaper item for fitting spell vamp into a build as an alternative, as there's a pull for another stat first and a clear drawback.

You'll also generally notice the vast majority of spell spell-vamp users are manaless or can utilize manaless abilities for spell vamp:

Akali Katarina Vladimir Mordekaiser Rumble Jax Nunu

(Jax's Grandmaster applies on-hit effects and is a 100% in-effect passive skill, Nunu's passive allows him to cast a manaless spell after so many auto-attacks).


  1. item 3157 is better.

Sustained damage champions rely on life steal to sustain through a fight come late-game, allowing a glass-cannon build the durability it needs to be appealing (rather than going bruiser build on everything like you would in a typical RPG). Hourglass offers a burst of defense for burst casters, so they can burst and then have the CDR window they need to burst again (or counteract getting bursted).

Considering the power Hourglass can offer, it's fair to say it's better than life-steal in several scinarios, a Fiddlesticks with Hourglass can fairly easily cause an Ace, a Fidd with spell vamp will probably tend to be underwhelming.


Anyways - if WotA is going to appeal to AP champions as a source of in-combat defense or lane-sustain, it needs to be cheap enough to merit diverting to on occasion within a item 3165 item 3157 path.



On to your suggested change:

New [2935 Gold ]item 3152 100 AP, 10% CDR, 20% Spell Vamp

This seems more like diss-incentive to get the item over a minor buff.

The average champion in the average game of LoL ends the game with 11,000 gold - which works out to about 1k for boots, three major 3k items, and 1k in the bank when someone's Nexus explodes.

So - there is little value in an item being "slot efficient" when it comes to LoL, because you'll rarely run out of space before a game ends.

Which is the only advantage stat-sticks you can get with base item (or mostly base item) components really accomplishes.

Otherwise, you're pushing another item that offers AP and CDR 435 gold down the game time to it's completion, setting access to it's unique passive/active effects further back.

The 10% CDR boost just doesn't strike me as very worth it in this context, as the 435 bonus is 20 AP in the most cost-inefficient item tier of cheap base item components. CDR in particular is a pretty awful stat to tack onto items willy-nilly, because it becomes useless when you hit the 40% cap, which isn't particularly hard to reach in any particular build. Sometimes it requires CDR boots or runes, but if you really want CDR maxed on someone like Fiddlesticks that scales extremely well with that stat, why Not get CDR maxed ASAP by using boots and runes with CDR on them while pushing things like M Pen into later-game itemization?

Theorchero1 votes

Vlad buffs?

GOD NO

ABlueQuaker1 votes

tbh I only ever use Gunblade as a fun alternative to BotRK if I'm playing something like Poppy or Jax nowadays and then I might get a Rageblade instead of a 3rd defensive item.

Gunblade is kinda meh on mages unless you're playing something like Kennen and you already have a couple of doran's blades because you can get bits and pieces of bilgewater cutlass unless you can buy a whole revolver.

Linna Excel1 votes

I'd rather riot fix spellvamp first and then worry about how these two items should be balanced against one another.

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