If you nerf this, Mages as Support will be a lot less enticing.

Dessem··24 votes·2,932 views

item 3303

TL;DR Spellthief's Edge allows mages to do more damage as a support than as a laner before first back, and even then Frostfang lets them match that if not still put them ahead.

5 AP is kind of meh, but 25% base mana regen helps fuel the likes of Brand to cast more spells than they would in the mid lane (moreso if they took Meditation), and the bonus damage isn't too shabby either. The real kicker is that they get +10 damage on spell hit. (And 8 Gold but.)

Compare this to a midlaner: they start with Doran's Ring or Dark Seal, both of which give +15 AP. That means, given the choice of trading with Support Brand or Mid lane Brand, who does more damage?

If you guessed "Support Brand", you're absolutely correct. Support Brand does more damage because he doesn't have 100% AP scaling and is better served by 10 additional damage. That 10 AP translates to 6 magic damage on his W, and 0.15% mHP damage on his Passive.

Support Brand, meanwhile, does 30 extra damage.

Then he gets this bad boy: item 3098 And Brand does 15 more damage and gets 10 additional AP, for 500g. What can a Mid laner get for that money? item 1056 or item 1052, for a maximum of 20 AP.

The score is: Mid Lane Brand: 35 AP Support Brand: 15 AP, +45 damage on spell hit.

Does the 20 AP compensate for the +45 damage? Only once Frostfang's exhausted, and at a 60% AP scaling, you'll need to land four spells to deal 45 damage, whereas Support Brand only needs to hit three times, whether with spells or AA's (and as I recall each tick of his Passive counts as a separate instance? Shit's crazy, yo).

Now, Mages going Support hasn't been raised as a Significant Issue, but I feel nerfing the bonus damage on Frostfang will pull back the reigns on Support Mages by a fair margin, since they'll finally do less damage than if they were mid lane.

EDIT: I notice the flaw in my argument in that mid lane Brand won't back and buy just a Doran's or Amp Tome. You're absolutely correct. But for a direct comparison between items, I felt this was more accurate. Mid Brand would probably purchase item 3802 at the time Support Brand buys Frostfang, at which point he needs three spells to hit for 45 damage.

Mind that I neglected this argument because only his W has a 60% AP scaling, his Q and especially E have a lot less.

68 Comments

Korijenkins24 votes

Or they could just lower base damage on the problem mages and raise their scaling so they won't work in bot.

Dessem3 votes

Nerfing the base damages would nerf them for mid lane/top lane as well, however. Nerfing Spellthief's Edge targets the bot lane mages specifically (Sona/Nami/Bard as collateral damage but could be fixed with 5 AD for Bard/Sona and 5 base damage on Nami's W) while leaving them equally effective mid lane.

Looking for a solution that doesn't touch mid lane performances but lowering support performances, nerfing Spellthief's damage is the way to go.

RainbowIcee2 votes

they should just buff the mage supports and let them play mid since brand doesn't wanna go mid.

Korijenkins1 votes

Well if you buff the mage supports they'll just be even stronger in botlane. Lets say they buff Brand, Zyra, and Malz to put them back in mid. Then teams will just run Brand support and Malz mid.

RainbowIcee1 votes

but then they could just be like brand mid, malz top and zyra bot to have all 3 of them on a team. See what i mean? making them too strong when they have multi lane roles will just encourage a team to max out the use of them.

Tranoze12 votes

The reason they buff base damage because all AP items suck now. They used to have 120 AP. AP mid used to have 600 AP mid game. now beside veigar, all AP mid have like 200~300 AP mid game, and with the gold from item 3098 normal fed support AP have same. All wave clear spell from AP has been nerfed. It harder to farm as AP now. Mana pot removed = mid laner have to buy mana based item. It easier to buy magic resist as any class now. It too easy access CDR and mana regen as mage support than mage mid item 3165 + item 3092 and rune you can easy have 45 % CDR and unlimited mana. Mean while mage mid have to build heath since they 1 v 1 a lot and noone cover them in lane which actually lower their damage. Kinda fun when support can build full to damage without worrying, but mid, if vs a yasuo or zed or whatever cancer, they have to actually build defense before offense.

Nymzo2 votes

{quoted}

It too easy access CDR and mana regen as mage support than mage mid item 3165 + item 3092 and rune you can easy have 45 % CDR and unlimited mana.

Except that they don't need item 3165, they just need item 3116 item 3151 along with item 2301 and a boot and they are good to go.

Tranoze1 votes

actually, with high base damage, mage support need cdr more than health, the only health item they need is item 2049 And they team fight much more than mid, and there are no assassin in bot lane, so they have no worry about dieing or being busted in one combo so they do their job better in bot. Beside, they have no worry about mana using for farming minions, no worry about jungle ganking in both side since there only one side to gank in bot (when there are 2 side to gank in mid, and you cant have 2 ward up all the time) give them much easier laning pharse than mid lane and give them almost equal amount of gold.

Nymzo1 votes

I don't think your understand my point

It's not that item 3165 is not good on them, it's just that as supports, they don't need it.

Imagine a Zyra who has an item 2301 and a item 3158 in her pocket ok?.

While item 3165 cost obviously less gold since it's only one item, the problem is what if offers is not that useful compare to the other 2.

100 ap is nice but the two items offer together 150 ap which is ok since it's 2 items, 400 mana and the mana restoration are nice but the problem that you don't need it since you have item 2301, you can even get meditation if you need more mana regen. Then there's GW, I highly doubt you would really need it and even if you would, item 3123 on your adc is better. There's also the fact that More takes 3 ingredients to complete which means you won't enough space for either a control ward or the 3rd ingredient until you can complete the item.

Meanwhile, item 3116 add a little bit of utility with the slow and item 3151, magic pen and dmg over time along with healths that come from the 2 items.

And if you don't believe me, you can just look at champion.opgg, the stats speak for themselves.

Tranoze1 votes

You make me realize that all mage item look like they design for support now, low price, low stats, high utility.

Korijenkins1 votes

My point is that if you nerf their base damage their bot lane harass will be significantly weaker, and they won't be able to afford full ap items as a support.

Tranoze1 votes

I know your point, but it doesnt change the fact that support ap can get tons of money and buy the ap item they suppose to build it in mid. it will reduce their damage early game, but as OP said, item 3303 give more damage than item 1082 or item 1056 , neft base damage will hurt mid laner more than being support since mid ap need significant damage to farm (you know mid laner doesnt build straight item 3089 right, how can they survive with that direct nerf?)

abbbez2 votes

if you were to lower the base damage on these mages it wouldn't just enforce them to go bot, it would also make them not want to go mid since they would have even worse wave clear than before.

Reaper Soraka8 votes

we shouldn't compare support brand to mid brand because mid brand gets to CS and keep his AP ratio while support brand takes one CS and his frostfang is disabled for 30sec.

So in lane vs lane, doran's brand beats support brand.

In a bronze league heroes 1v1 at dragon at 1:10 into the game, support brand wins...maybe? mid brand still has more health.

Dessem5 votes

Absolutely, mid Brand's damage output will eventually outscale support Brand's, and likely before the mid game supposing support Brand takes advantage of every single Spellthief's Edge stack and mid Brand hits 80% CS.

But the point I wanted to make was that Spellthief's Edge gives the advantage to any mage choosing to be "Support" because it lets them do more damage early on. Mage supports are a pain point for a number of players because they feel it's oppressive to lane against. I thought about that, and should Riot choose to nerf the playstyle (I don't necessarily object to mages going bot), I felt that if they nerfed Spellthief's Edge's damage bonus, they'd shave some power off of those pseudo-supports and make it less appealing.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I'm fine with mage-like enchanters being bot lane (Karma/Lulu), but when we start putting a burst mage next to another damage source and all of a sudden it turns into "oh I get by Zyra root......aaaaaand I'm dead because Zyra Ult+Ez Ult actually 100-0'd me". When mages are both bot lane (such as Brand Vs Zyra) it turns into a who can 100-0 the other first which both supports can easily do to each other after landing their CC. It just turns bot lane into an enternal bullet hell where if you get tagged by a CC ONCE you just die because the support is still a burst mage and will kill you with the help of maybe 2 auto attacks from the carry.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

This used to be a problem and so they nerfed spellthiefs because mid laners were taking it. I don't think it's an issue anymore though

Aptest6 votes

wtf is your problem you want all supports to revert to being "heal this shield that" dedicated second fiddle pre-owned bitches?

mage supports are fine. Traditional supports are fine. Tank supports are fine. Everything is fine (exempt redemption, that item is boooring).

what's the problem ?

Dessem7 votes

Fairly sure my argument was more along the lines of, "Support mage is enticing because you get to do more damage in trades thanks to Spellthief's Edge" and not "revert all supports to being 'dedicated second fiddle pre-owned bitches'". I looked to answer the question, "Why do people take mages botlane?" and decided that the answer could well be "because Spellthief's Edge makes them so effective".

I don't think they're presently an oppressive problem (and as far as I can tell, enchanter supports still reign supreme), though I'd contend that tank supports could stand to be in a slightly better position.

Aptest2 votes

exempt you are getting ahead of the facts and by a fair margin, since your initial assumption is that bottom lane mages aught to be nerfed.

you are completely ignoring the truth, which is that bottom lane mages - brand and malzahar and annie and the likes, are trailing behind all other support options in overall success.

for all intents and purposes, brand support and malzahar support should receive a buff!

you know which support you should be asking for a nerf on ? LULU. yes, she's one of them traditional supports. go look at her stats a bit, see what you come up with.


im not really sure you want to bring back the age of the tank supports. it's basically playing "prelude to a stun".

Dessem2 votes

I don't think winrate is an indication of how frustrating a particular champion is to lane against. Yasuo has a low winrate, but that doesn't mean people don't feel he can be downright frustrating to lane against. Winrate alone doesn't mean everything.

As for why they attain less success, it's because enchanters allow their ADCs to take the stage. With a support like Brand or Annie, ADCs have to be extra careful about their position, as there is no enchanter shield or heal to undo a mistake or protect them from dives and assassins.

Lulu is strong because she negates mage supports and assassins, while at the same time having the potential to do (sorry) tons of damage. Nerfing Spellthief's Edge would also nerf Lulu by reducing the effectiveness of her poke.

A mage support works when they develop into a carry and snowball, but become less valuable and helpful when they get behind.

Aptest1 votes

I don't think winrate is an indication of how frustrating a particular champion is to lane against. Yasuo has a low winrate, but that doesn't mean people don't feel he can be downright frustrating to lane against. Winrate alone doesn't mean everything.

And I would really like to see this topic expanded upon but all i hear from everybody is "mage supports suck waa waa waa nerf this shit". As if this is a clearly understood and widely accepted notion that everybody gets.

I want to know what the problem is, and nobody is saying anything revealing, so far.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

wtf is your problem you want all supports to revert to being "heal this shield that" dedicated second fiddle pre-owned bitches?

mage supports are fine. Traditional supports are fine. Tank supports are fine. Everything is fine (exempt redemption, that item is boooring).

what's the problem ?

We want support to actually be supports not another factor in the damage creep issue.

Aptest1 votes

two question:

  1. what do you mean by "supports be supports"?

  2. whatever you mean by "supports be supports", do you think it is a fun play style for the mass of players? I mean, not for specifically the guys who play soraka, but for the guys who choose fizz mid and jax top too. If so, why, if not, why not?

SnugglePuggle946 votes

Then you punish the supports who actually need those stats, i.e. Sona Lulu Morgana JannaKarma Nami . What are their compensation buffs for these nerfs? Have you thought of that?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

All of those supports run coin just as effectively if not more than Spellthief's. Also, if you are picking someone like Janna and are going to complain about not doing enough damage through your spellthief's edge (as a champion not meant to do damage) then you should have picked a champion actually dedicated to do damage and not have it as a caveat for free. Nami is not a champion meant to do damage, but she gets to outdamage every other utility support (W does a lot of damage while still having a substantial heal and her E does give her ADC a Pickaxe at rank 1 for free) while still having infinite sustain in lane thanks to her W and the rest of her kit still being incredibly overloaded.

SnugglePuggle945 votes

Why would all these supports take ancient coin? It offers no damage in turn for extra money, health, and a little mobility. Sona, Lulu, Morg, Nami, and Karma survive on Spellthief because they do damage and need the stats. The only one I don't see that takes it commonly is Janna. It's "their" item and shouldn't be nerfed because of stupid Brand.

sobi9995 votes

Maybe if rito made traditional supp's stronger than that would automatically lower the pick rate of mages as support. If they nerf items that mages and supports can use then supports like sona, nami etc that go spell thief will be hurt as well and they are not exactly performing too well. Maybe make traditional supp stronger early game by increasing their base scaling i.e. base healing/shielding and nerf items like solari/redemption to make their late game less devastating.

Also this notion of supp being weak is stereotypical. I mean support's are defined as players that sacrifice farm on behalf of their adc not to provide them shields/healing (soraka main myself). Even if a support is strong bot lane with support items then what is wrong with that considering all of you other laners get to be strong? Why do supports have to be the weakest link? If your team lacks damage then supports may as well go a burst mage to compensate for that and i see nothing wrong with it. Farming is obviously much more difficult than procing spell thief but we get rewarded less in gold and in exp and i think that is sufficient enough. We shouldn't be sitting ducks just because we are stereotyped to be the weakest link.

Dessem4 votes

Sona is actually hovering around a 52~53% winrate, Nami was higher in winrate before the meta shifted but still around 50.5%.

I agree nerfing the item's damage would hurt Sona and Nami, but also the likes of Bard, and to some extent Zilean and Karma. Sona, Nami and Bard aren't played mid, so you could probably safely buff them a little to compensate for any nerfs to Spellthief's Edge.

Aptest1 votes

no that is not true. traditional supports are actually stronger than mage supports. mage supports are picked because their players think they are more fun than traditional support.

people who pick mage supports sacrifice effectiveness and win ratio for fun. the same way as people who OTP with yasuo or choose only assassins or top lane carries to play, also sacrifice success for fun.

the question you should be asking is not, how to make all the mage support players switch by making less fun picks (for them! janna mains please have mercy on me!) better. This will just make mid lane and jungle players more frustrated due to "overbearing disengage power". It is also not how to warp Janna into something her current players will not enjoy.

Rather, what in the traditional support kit is something that they don't find fun, and how you can make an effective traditional support in the future, that will have all the elements that they consider to be fun.

Another interesting question is, what in mage supports is frustrating to deal with? "they kill me" is a very bad answer, because ideally you want to be killing them. So why can't this be also the reverse? It's not inharantly unhealthy for a support to run up to the enemy mid laner and slap him around shouting "puny god"... but ofcourse he should not be able to do that with a 4K gold deficit. This is more a question of whether these champions overperform for their income or not.

ADDENDUM: i think it is somewhat related to the end game fantasy for ADCs. ADC players are offered this trade off by the game: everybody shits on you, if you are unsupported. but if you are supported, you shit on everybody. Mage supports take this offer away.

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

no that is not true. traditional supports are actually stronger than mage supports. mage supports are picked because their players think they are more fun than traditional support.

people who pick mage supports sacrifice effectiveness and win ratio for fun. the same way as people who OTP with yasuo or choose only assassins or top lane carries to play, also sacrifice success for fun.

the question you should be asking is not, how to make all the mage support players switch by making less fun picks (for them! janna mains please have mercy on me!) better. This will just make mid lane and jungle players more frustrated due to "overbearing disengage power". It is also not how to warp Janna into something her current players will not enjoy.

Rather, what in the traditional support kit is something that they don't find fun, and how you can make an effective traditional support in the future, that will have all the elements that they consider to be fun.

Another interesting question is, what in mage supports is frustrating to deal with? "they kill me" is a very bad answer, because ideally you want to be killing them. So why can't this be also the reverse? It's not inharantly unhealthy for a support to run up to the enemy mid laner and slap him around shouting "puny god"... but ofcourse he should not be able to do that with a 4K gold deficit. This is more a question of whether these champions overperform for their income or not.

ADDENDUM: i think it is somewhat related to the end game fantasy for ADCs. ADC players are offered this trade off by the game: everybody shits on you, if you are unsupported. but if you are supported, you shit on everybody. Mage supports take this offer away.

"traditional supports are actually stronger than mage supports"

I mean those 2 are completely different classes. One excels in burst damage and the other in sustain/CC. Now the issue is what you consider supports to be? Do you consider them to have an single objective and that is to save the adc? Then yes trad supp are better than mages.

THe notion of supports being played for the sole purpose of keeping the adc alive i.e. providing them heals/shields and peeling for them is what makes support role not fun. The main reason being that in soloq if your adc is bad then your supp will automatically be bad. Mainly because you rely on your adc for the damage and defense alone cannot win against offence, It eventually will tire. Regardless, sometimes if your adc goes in danger then your job as a supp means that you also have to go into danger. Automatically that reduces your effectiveness as otherwise you wouldn't have done that and 1 mistake of adc turns into 2 mistakes.

Many think shields and healing are the only way you can support an adc but they dont realize "death" is the best CC. The reason you would go mage supp over traditional supp is that trad supp are weak early game because of how devastating their late game are whilst mages that go bot have high base damages but not so high AP scaling so their early game is devastating. It is for this reason that you would target enemy adc and burst him down, after which the trad supp is more or less useless. Burst wins over sustain i believe. Other than that mages should always buy sightstone and i usually get rylais to provide some utility to my team.

In dynamic queue i much rather prefer soraka/janna and even enjoy playing them. I just don't like being forced to play shield/heal support all the time even when i know it won't be effective. There is a reason why mage bot lane are meta (more or less). Lastly how would you feel if i told you to only go AD top lane i.e. that takes out vlad, swain, teemo etc out of the lane. It's the same with support role. We should be able to go what we think works, obviously not factoring in troll picks. Some may go burst mage for fun but nonetheless mages are doing their job at bot lane pretty well so either way that is not the issue. Early game adc do need help and as a mage supp you should try to poke enemies so they don't dive you with low health but after that i don't think we need to stick with the adc's like glue. They are as strong as we are and as squishy as we are.

Aptest1 votes

I mean those 2 are completely different classes.

Agreed. But you can still make some assessment of general overall usefulness even though one class will be more useful under certain situations than the other.

I mean, Janna obviously brings to the game the property of having excellent peeling and good buffing for Mr. precious over there. And Brand obviously brings general purpose supporting damage lavishly spread over the opposing team. Given that you have a choice between the two properties, which one is it better to have in the team?

I'm not saying, supports should guard ADCs and brand sucks at it so he's a bad support. I'm saying there's a competition between two abilities that you bring to the game and which one of those two are better? Statistically speaking, based on win rates across the board, the added control and protection a traditional support brings, trumps brand's damage output.

Nonetheless the notion of "keeping brand in check" keeps popping up. so, "Why" is a question that should be asked and explored:

"Why" are people having an issue with mage supports? "why" are players choosing mage supports over traditional ones? "why" are (some) support players opposed to mage supports irrespective of power level? "what" do support and ADC players find un-fun to play against when facing mage supports? are adc players opposed to having mage supports on their team? who are the bigger opposers to mage supports? who is annoyed the most?

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

Let us both try figuring out the problems.

"Why" are people having an issue with mage supports?

Burst down adc early game and can even 2v1 in some situations. For example if both adc and supp get in the brunt of velk's combo + ult or brand's.

"why" are players choosing mage supports over traditional ones?

Games are shorter, first tower (used to be), Dragon, make it all appealing to have the bot turret first. Mages are just stronger early game and can push enemy turrets faster. Trad supp/adc are weak early game as opposed to mages so it makes them ideal targets for them to get some early game kills.

"why" are (some) support players opposed to mage supports irrespective of power level?

Take me for example. I was a big soraka fan until mages kicked her out. Soraka is a dedicated healer so without her adc's damage output she is more or less useless. As i mentioned before mages have burst and burst counters sustain (soraka). In a nutshell, mages counter sustain champs which most trad supp are. I am assuming the trad supp and mage both know how to play in which case the mage should try focusing on bursting than poking the enemy which has sustain.

"what" do support and ADC players find un-fun to play against when facing mage supports?

Mana issues are rare with tear or lost chapter and mages have insane pokes or combos that can proc TL. In some cases they feel like assassins but the difference is that they do their combos from range and usually need 2 rotation of spells to 100-0.

are adc players opposed to having mage supports on their team?

They definitely are. They dont like being tortured nor do they like if the supp's ks eventhough in the case of mage supp they do more damage than the adc and yet get branded with ks.

who are the bigger opposers to mage supports? who is annoyed the most?

Burst usually counters burst but tank supp are really good against mages if they play it properly. I mean i go velk and tanks hardly matter to me bc i melt them as well but otherwise someone like alistar that provides insane peeling is just awesome with draven and jhin.

Lastly the main reason i play mage supp is because i don't want to rely on my adc in soloq after having first hand experience of how useless, I as a trad supp, am without my adc and i really don't want to be hindered by an adc that i never played with before. On the other hand, mages can keep their own ground. Nonetheless, another thing which trad supp lack is wave clearing. There were so many times where our team gave away ace but the enemy lanes were pushed because i always push waves when i can. Obviously i only take the farm that usually will get lost under the tower or against allied minions but pushing waves is yet another factor which most people don't realize the importance off.

Aptest1 votes

Burst down adc early game and can even 2v1 in some situations.

Can I interpret this as a dislike of the support player doing damage in the general case? A dislike of the support player being able to fight off opposing team's champions unassisted in the general case?

Games are shorter, first tower (used to be), Dragon, make it all appealing to have the bot turret first.

Are support mages able to fulfill the goal of pushing out the opposing lane and taking the first tower first? Statistically speaking, traditional supports are slightly superior in win rate - given that "take first tower" has big correlation with victory, is this assertion true?

if it is not, why is this perceived as an advantage of mage supports? if no, how do you explain superior win rate by traditional supports despite first tower blood?

I was a big soraka fan until mages kicked her out

She has a respectable win rate and a respectable play rate, how do you claim that she has been kicked out? even if she isn't performing well VS mage supports (is she performing badly VS them?) they only consist of 25% of the opposing team's games, so she must have ample opportunities to be played.

I think soraka got kicked down a notch through being nerfed.

mages counter sustain champs which most trad supp are

How do you support the assertion that mages counter traditional support, given that traditional supports maintain an overall higher win rate, and in addition that mage supports maintain an overall negative win rate??

Given that traditional supports tend to win, why are mage supports perceived as a counter ?

In some cases they feel like assassins

Mage supports are generally combo oriented with strong DPS focus either through persistent damage effects (brand passive, voidlings, plants). or short CD poke (velkoz)

Can I understand your argument as: The ADC is already the other team's whipping boy (everybody shits on the ADC), facing a mage support adds to this feeling because there is another source of threat he can't deal with? A traditional support is much more liable to be food for the ADC at some point in the game, if the enemy team has a mage support not only do they have one less person that the ADC can kill, they have one more person that the ADC is killed by, which sucks for the ADC?

They dont like being tortured

in what way does a mage support torture the ADC player on his team?

in the case of mage supp they do more damage than the adc and yet get branded with ks.

Do you mean to say, that the ADC is expecting to be the star, through the dealing of the damages and having the kills, but the support is taking over the show and stealing the thunder? That the frustration comes from not being able to realize the fantasy of playing ADC because the other guy is refusing to play a second fiddle?

tank supp are really good against

What I meant to ask is, which type of player is most vocal against mage supports? are the support players most upset? Are the ADC players? Are mid laners? are top laners? are junglers?

which kind of player, and why? who's cheese has been moved the most?

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

Its true that supp's are considered to be the weakest link in the game and thus an easy target for the enemy. This assertion however costs them when the enemy supp is a mage. Likewise the adc gets less spotlight if there is a mage that can 100-0 it up until late game where the adc have insane sustain.

I think 2 thinks should be noted about winrates

  1. Playrate should be looked at together with winrate
  2. Which elo's winrate are we talking about?

Another thing which i consider to be of importance is team work. ADC's are the best sustain DPS class in the game, which late game turn into burst DPS sustain. Therefore supports who help them reach their late game potential faster like soraka/janna are generally overall more useful to the team. However I believe what you might be ignoring in Soloq is the lack of team work that higher elos have more. That is why trad supp like soraka/janna have better winrate/playrate in those elos. In lower elo's though(from my experience) it is better if you go mage supp in most cases. If the adc is bad or is newb, you as a trad support automatically suffer and this goes vice versa. Which isn't too much to tolerate with mages though as they can keep the waves frozen much better than trad supp. So many times my adc has died and i as a mage supp kept the tower alive alone for a long time. I just can't do that with soraka. Also generally having more damage creep helps to win games faster. In higher elos though the backline is kept alive by mages/tanks so they can dish out their damage as much as possible, which is the best way to increase your teams damage output then again it requires team work.

In about 500 games i must have seen no more than 10 enemy soraka's whilst i have played 150-250 odd games with her already. it just shows how rare of a sight it is to play against her and so many adc's have told me not to pick soraka because she is useless (obviously she is not) but i presume they probably laned against a terrible soraka. She is really weak early game which makes it ever so difficult if your adc is too aggressive early game. If the adc is too pasive then it loses farm very easily under tower or gets poked too much. The way to lane together with soraka is to farm and poke whenever possible and slowly outsustain the enemy. This requires too much team work which i seldom see in soloq.

Give me a competent adc and i will go soraka happily. I play PVP only because i just play for fun which is not so fun if i am baby sitting a bad adc. A good adc treats you like a partner so when he gets kills he generally thanks you and you say GJ in return. This is what i think an adc/supp relationship should be like.

Aptest1 votes

this is going into a scattered discussion.

What I am interested in is discussing whether mage supports are un-fun to play against, what elements of un-fun they have and whether these are healthy legitimate awesome moments that are simply un-fun because you are on the receiving end, or is there a counterplay or some other issue that makes these properties the special kind of un-fun that should be squashed.

you are going into a general purpose rant, so I ask that you re-focus ?

in the mean time:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/Pkjfc6qtm.jpg

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/PkkFX9YAI.jpg

happy now ?

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

this is going into a scattered discussion.

What I am interested in is discussing whether mage supports are un-fun to play against, what elements of un-fun they have and whether these are healthy legitimate awesome moments that are simply un-fun because you are on the receiving end, or is there a counterplay or some other issue that makes these properties the special kind of un-fun that should be squashed.

you are going into a general purpose rant, so I ask that you re-focus ?

in the mean time:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/Pkjfc6qtm.jpg

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/PkkFX9YAI.jpg

happy now ?

My bad, i was simply trying to answer what you asked me tbh. Like you had asked me multiple questions which i just answered throughout my post unlike my very first post where i put the answers underneath the questions.

Mage supports obviously have counters and from the stats its clear that trad supp are picked more often in just about every elo and have higher winrates. So generally speaking they are better and should be more or less dominant over mage supp's, right? If that was the case then why do we see these daily posts about mages being cancer at bot lane?

I mean why bother talking about mages being OP as supp when stats say otherwise. It boils down to the fact that the adc suffers because of mage supp's and is more likely to under perform because mages do not provide them with shields/heals. What i have been "ranting" on and on is that in soloq (pvp) you generally would not expect team work between yourself and the adc. I have also gave an example of soraka needing the adc to poke and farm and outsustain, which sadly requires alot of team work. If you don't get this team work then mages really dominate at bot lane and this can be seen from all the "bot lane mages" fuss. However after laning is over trad supp are much more useful and scale better into late game as well with better itemization.

I don't think mages are broken bot lane but they surely are unfun to play against in the laning phase. They have many counters and fall of late game unlike trad supp. The counters include to play around their mana and outsustain them or simply play safe until laning phase is over and outscale them as trad supp.

They are generally more fun to play with if you love dealing damage and standing on your own ground (not following adc all the time) but trad supp are more rewarding overall (but require more team work). Even as a soraka, if my adc is feeding i can supp any other carry in my team. I do prefer trad supp over mages and i do think items like solari/redemption/ardent are really useful for the team. I just don't like going trad supp when my adc is bad because it effects my performance indirectly and that's just unfun and somewhat makes me toxic.

Was i on point this time around? Have i answered all of your questions?

Aptest1 votes

My bad, i was simply trying to answer what you asked me tbh

read your post again. you went off on a tangent.

If that was the case then why do we see these daily posts about mages being cancer at bot lane?

Exactly. is this not a topic worth exploring?

now i get to go off on a tangent a bit:

As a support player, what i crave is options. The most important option that i want available to me is to choose which champion in the game i worth with and through. In my mind it can not be pre-determined that the support works with the ADC. the second option that i want available to me is to move aggressively against the other team even when my team requires someone to defend the ADC. I.E. I need the ability in game to relegate the task of ADC protection to one of the other lanes without those lanes shirking that responsibility.

other options i did not mention are also important.

Protecting the ADC is an unsatisfying task in many cases. So i want the option to do other things. Not, to do other things in_ addition to_ also protecting ADC whilst ADC protection takes priority, but rather to do other things that replace protecting the ADC.

the question is, what kind of impact does that have on the game? what frustrations are generated, and in what way do other roles need to change to accommodate me having a better time?

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

read your post again. you went off on a tangent.

Exactly. is this not a topic worth exploring?

now i get to go off on a tangent a bit:

As a support player, what i crave is options. The most important option that i want available to me is to choose which champion in the game i worth with and through. In my mind it can not be pre-determined that the support works with the ADC. the second option that i want available to me is to move aggressively against the other team even when my team requires someone to defend the ADC. I.E. I need the ability in game to relegate the task of ADC protection to one of the other lanes without those lanes shirking that responsibility.

other options i did not mention are also important.

Protecting the ADC is an unsatisfying task in many cases. So i want the option to do other things. Not, to do other things in_ addition to_ also protecting ADC whilst ADC protection takes priority, but rather to do other things that replace protecting the ADC.

the question is, what kind of impact does that have on the game? what frustrations are generated, and in what way do other roles need to change to accommodate me having a better time?

I don't think you actually notice how many questions you ask me in a single post and thus why you keep thinking i go off topic. Its just to explain you the answers better which you keep neglecting over and over again because lets face it, the answers to your questions are my opinions which you could either agree or disagree with. So i don't want you to take them as facts.

You say that you want options but you forgot that trad supp can only excel in so many things. Soraka excels in healing and pretty much everything else is average or below so there are not many options there for you. Janna can go aggressive but you still have to choose between going aggressive or passive so not many options there. Sona probably can go both but for her to perform at her best, she needs to be close to allies. Maybe lulu atm can do both easily but the point still stands that if you go passive as a supp you lose out so much on the aggressive options available to you. Supp are actually designed around supporting the adc unlike mage supp hence why there is much frustration from the adc side against the mage supp. If you however wanted to supp other lanes that could also be an issue since what if bot lane had 2 enemies and you went to top/mid.

Adc are incapable of surviving alone early game because they are generally the weakest class at that time. Top lane is freaking all about cs and if both top laners are good you'll hardly see any deaths there. Mid is all about pushing the wave and trading (mages at mid usually have range). Even if you went to either lane or went to help the jungler you'll be leaving your adc vulnerable. If the enemy supp is missing then sometimes i also leave my adc alone and go help mid but i am assuming here that my adc can survive against the enemy adc atleast. Also unlike bot lane, if you go to other lanes your allies will lose out on experience and they definitely dislike that. They also prefer that nobody touches or messes with their cs so they can freeze it wherever they think is best. In a nutshell, what i am trying to get across is that, you as a sup, will not be welcomed in other lanes for long period of time.

Lets say you wanted to swap places with another member in your other lanes then maybe only top (tanks) can provide the same amount of protections to the adc that you do but you will have a rough time at top lane then. The whole idea of swapping lanes or going to help other lanes is messed up really. Lets presume you meant that outside lane other allies can protect your adc whilst you go farm and etc. Well that is one of the main reasons why support is the least played role. Mid is a carry just like your adc and that leaves jungl and top which can tank damage for your adc but otherwise the adc needs to play relatively safe without you supporting him. As a supp you simply are much more effective with your adc at all times especially the ancient coin users. Mage supp can roam and be more effective as they can snowball way better. I see roaming for 2 main purposes: 1) To snowball and/or 2) to push waves and trad supp are weak at both. This is why i said before that if your adc is bad then you as a supp will underperform as well but in the case of mages you can always push waves and snowball to increase your effectiveness that is indirectly correlated with your own mistakes. The competent adc will perform way better with a supp but will perform average with mage supp whereas bad adc will make you perform bad and perform bad themselves.

As for leaving the adc alone:

My last game as soraka was against a taric/jinx. That jinx kept feeding and eventually taric left her to her own but once late game hit she was able to carry without pretty much any help. So maybe you could leave the adc once you think they are fed enough or at mid-late game. Mage supp just try to finish the game asap bc of their power spike early game.

Baby sitting the adc is tbh a supp's job hence why it is the least played role. I don't ever think anyone else would like to follow the adc 24/7.

Fairyfleur3 votes

Yes, but then you punish other supports who don't need nerfs.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Yes, but if you nerf their support forms, Brand and Malz can't go anywhere

Athenes Lulu2 votes

I think removing the bonus damage would actually have solved a lot of the meta supports of the day. Yes, Lulu counts.

They already have enough damage, there's no need to slap on that +10 extra damage on hit from spellthief's.

SirΤeemο1 votes

as a teemo main, i don't really care for brand.. i counter him

Guyy Fieri3 votes

{quoted}

as a teemo main, i don't really care for brand.. i counter him

Ummm....except you don't...

SirΤeemο1 votes

actually.. i do . kappa .. tell me more about my main which i play for 3 years

Guyy Fieri1 votes

{quoted}

actually.. i do . kappa .. tell me more about my main which i play for 3 years

I'm just saying that Teemo doesn't counter brand...there's nothing about tremors kit that counters brand lol...that's not to say that you can't play that matchup well and that your skill can't personally counter brand but it's not because of Teemo

Pierce The Veal1 votes

On some mid champions like velkoz or casseiopeia spellthief's is still not a bad idea.

Dessem1 votes

Only if you can't CS. :P

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Only if you can't CS. :P

Actually harrass between minion waves is a thing, soooo, collect your extra gold, cs, then wait, harrass again, then cs. Not to mention an additional passive gold generation.

Malfectious1 votes

Why are we all looking at the problem and not looking for the solution. Guys if you have a problem with mage support, then counter it. I bet a roaming, counter jungling, mid/bot ganking Shaco support would make a mage support think twice. You have two beautiful squishies right there to farm, and when there dead imma go mid and kill him too.

If you don't like the META...Break it.

More from Gameplay

More by Dessem