Mages can't properly farm undertower once the clock passes 10 minutes

Gorzke·Dec 12, 2014·38 votes·3,178 views

Understand "properly farm" as {2 Tower Hits + 1 Champion Hit} for Melee Minions and {1 Champion Hit + 1 Tower Hit + 1 Champion Hit} for caster Minions. Of course you can do it with proper RUNES and MASTERIES, or with spells, but with reduced Mana Regeneration farming with spells is a death sentence against someone who doesn't.

I hope you can increase the Basic attack damage of those champions by ~1 per level so they can catch up, at least until the 20 mim mark.

Thanks.

39 Comments

MikeYeungsSmiteDec 13, 201410 votes

Poor 30000 range mages

FalconPawwwwnchDec 12, 20148 votes

And melee can't farm under tower at all ever if versing a ranged champ

Raid Boss MordeDec 13, 20141 votes

Not true. Have you ever faced a Zed?

JunkοDec 13, 20141 votes

Zed has a execute passive and can farm from safety. Unless he is against a Kayle, then he is fucked.

Meanwhile champions like Fizz, Talon, etc... will be unable to farm against a ranged champion that beats them in range.

WhereTheNamesAtDec 14, 20142 votes

Fizz backflips for days and has a good passive against immobile mages…and i'll delete you once i get my brutalizer and lvl 6 as talon

JunkοDec 14, 20141 votes

Fizz and Talon will still be bullied pretty hard by mages that don't rely on skillshots until they get the gold for that one item they need.

Also Talon really can't delete anybody at level 6 with just a brutalizer. His full combo was never was enough to kill somebody (mainly because it used to silence which is now gone), you need to use the mini QEW first once or twice.

WhereTheNamesAtDec 14, 20142 votes

Idk what u are talking about…i play Talon a lot and do it all the time. I run +12 armor pen and i can delete any mage with a brutalizer and ult.

JunkοDec 14, 20141 votes

I played Talon back when he had his silence, you really can't kill anyone that is at full health unless they had 0 armor runes.

SiyanorDec 12, 20144 votes

Or maybe you should learn what every single pro already knows: The command input sequence for "Properly farm" changes based on your champion and the game time.

Sailor MintDec 12, 20143 votes

Unless you were horribly behind, natural AD scaling and Spellblade made it so you could always cs under turret.

Unfortunately, base AD per level was lowered as part of the base stats changes. This has the side effect of making last hitting under turret harder for champions who don't build AD.

Example: Ahri. Actual values differ, but the curve is the same for all champions.

Level	..Season 4..	..Pre-Season 5..	Difference
1	53	53	0
2	56	55	-1
3	59	57	-2
4	62	60	-2
5	65	62	-3
6	68	65	-3
7	71	68	-3
8	74	70	-4
9	77	73	-4
10	80	76	-4
11	83	79	-4
12	86	83	-3
13	89	86	-3
14	92	89	-3
15	95	93	-2
16	98	96	-2
17	101	100	-1
18	104	104	0

KidKaiserDec 12, 20141 votes

O.O how the hell does ahri gain AD at lvl 3. then magically loses it all at lvl 4..

Sailor MintDec 12, 20141 votes

Fixed the typo. Live values are no longer linear so I had manually copy them from the wiki.

If someone has the new formula, feel free to share.

junglerboy16Dec 14, 20141 votes

Riot said that it has this formula in the patch 4.20 notes:

"Level 1: Immediately gain 0% of your growth statistic. All of your 'base stats' will be calculated off of this Level 2: Gain +72% of your growth statistic Level 3: Gain +75.5% of your growth statistic Level 4: Gain +79% of your growth statistic ... Gain +((Level*3.5 - 7) + 72)% of your growth statistic Level 18: Gain +128% of your growth statistic"

"At level 18, you've gained +1700% of your growth statistic (this is slightly more than the old formula)"

The key thing that whoever wrote that entry for the Wiki missed is that all champions had their base stats INCREASED, so I don't think they actually got it right. Ahri's base attack damage should actually be a little higher at level one than it was before patch 4.20, and then gain a more gradual amount of AD per level at early levels due to the curved scaling. This is basically so that champions don't get nearly as huge a power spike when they hit level 2 first, since the stat gain early is comparably small, while late game the gains increase. Also important to note, it should actually be EASIER for mages to farm with auto attacks since minions no longer scale up in MR and armor, only hp.

Sailor MintDec 14, 20141 votes

With some data to compare, the formula makes sense now. There is some rounding in the ingame display, but the difference is never higher that 0.47AD.

Base AD: 53 AD Growth rate: 3 Expected growth from 1 to 18: 104 ( 17*3 = 104) Actual AD Growth from 1 to 18: 104 (1700% of growth rate).

.. Level ..	.. Displayed AD ..	.. Growth ..
1	53	-
2	55	2.16
3	57	2.27
4	60	2.37
5	62	2.48
6	65	2.58
7	68	2.69
8	70	2.79
9	73	2.90
10	76	3.00
11	79	3.11
12	83	3.21
13	86	3.32
14	89	3.42
15	93	3.53
16	96	3.63
17	100	3.74
18	104	3.84

It seems most other stats have a higher level 1 values than before, it doesn't appear to be the case for AD.

i.e.: Ahri's Health: Season 4: 460 (+80) / 1820 at level 18. Season 5: 514 (+80) / 1874 at level 18.

In short, all level 1 AD values should be increased by 3 to compensate (or butcher should be increased to 5 damage).

junglerboy16Dec 14, 20141 votes

Interesting, I thought that Riot said they had increased all level one stats for all champions except for attack speed on ranged champions. Maybe it is unintentional that mages didn't get their base AD bumped up like everyone else's?

SiyanorDec 12, 20141 votes

We all know Ahri is a terrible example if you're looking for csing without spells. Ahri is particularly bad at it.

Sailor MintDec 12, 20143 votes

Ahri's base stats (minus attack speed and health) are the "default" caster stats. AD values vary wildly since most casters have some sort of AA steroid. 53 (+3) is a decent average.

The point of my post was to show the new AD scaling curve.

ImHerVoiceDec 13, 20143 votes

you're rigght they can press 1 key and clear an entire wave instantly. rofl.

TeemoJenkinsDec 12, 20142 votes

If by 10 minutes in you don't have your first main item built and working a second... larger problems.

TalamareDec 12, 201412 votes

{quoted} If by 10 minutes in you don't have your first main item built and working a second... larger problems.

His point was that he doesn't want to use spells to farm under tower

MPendragonDec 12, 20141 votes

{quoted} His point was that he doesn't want to use spells to farm under tower

No, his mana regeneration is the issue, not the fact that he doesn't want to use spells. Get an Unholy Grail, solves all mana problems.

Drunk RummateDec 12, 201423 votes

{quoted} Get an Unholy Grail, solves all mana problems.

haha, no it doesnt. not anymore.

DrMemesDec 12, 20143 votes

{quoted} No, his mana regeneration is the issue, not the fact that he doesn't want to use spells. Get an Unholy Grail, solves all mana problems.

No it doesn't, and the fact that it costs as much as a belt doesn't help either.

ZuphlasDec 13, 20141 votes

{quoted} His point was that he doesn't want to use spells to farm under tower

If he practiced CSing under tower enough he wouldn't generally have to. A big part of it is being very familiar with the champion you're doing it with.

League of PotatoDec 13, 20141 votes

No. AD champions have an easier time with this because for the most part if you build ad on an ad champion, it increases your base attacks too. While building ap on most ap champs this does not increase their base attack damage, making it increasingly difficult to keep up with champs who all they have to do is auto attack you to do a shit ton of damage.

DurzakaDec 12, 20142 votes

Past 10 minutes mages shouldnt be farming under tower like that unless they are horribly behind.

The entire point is mages use their abilities to fast clear waves.

SiyanorDec 12, 20149 votes

What? Have you even played League of Legends before?

JunkοDec 14, 20141 votes

Veigar

RAT IN GAME UwU Dec 12, 20142 votes

if you're under turret and pressed after 10 minutes you already lost, i don't see a reason for Riot to make items for people who already lost the game

OnegarionDec 12, 20144 votes

It doesn't mean you lost at all. Some matchups don't warrent aggressive play. You have to stay back and bide your time. The bot lane comparison would be having a twitch against a lucian. Lucain wins most of the time and twitch is forced under the tower to farm. Same goes for mid lane matchups. They don't always have the edge and an even lane favors their oppoenent thus letting them push on them to farm easier.

It Is I EmotoDec 12, 20142 votes

You know, it's total pain to farm as leblanc under the tower.. and she can't farm with her spells, because they're there for assasinating.. :/

junglerboy16Dec 14, 20141 votes

...and farming when you aren't assassinating.

It Is I EmotoDec 14, 20141 votes

if I use all my Qs for the farm, I have barley left for harrass. it's quite annoying for me lol

junglerboy16Dec 14, 20141 votes

Then just use some Qs for farm. That was my whole point about using it for farm when you don't need it for fighting the other laner. If you run yourself oom, then yes you are using it too much, but you can (and sometimes have to) use spells to wave clear.

NeoScoutDec 13, 20142 votes

that's why they have spells...

Drunk RummateDec 12, 20141 votes

perhaps they should just improve the butcher mastery or give it some scaling as the game goes on to make this an option for people but not a necessary thing