Everyone's complaining about Graves, but Shaco and Ivern are fine?

Dessem·Mar 12, 2017·56 votes·5,253 views

These two have been the top winrate junglers for at least five patches in a row. They provide much more to their team than just Graves does; Ivern in particular, who has a Support's kit with the gold and levels of a solo laner can feel incredibly overbearing. He denies your ADC vision, he denies your skillshots to reach because Daisy, he denies you damage with a shield.

Honestly, I think the jungle has much worse than Graves. Seeing the enemy pick Graves or Lee Sin is almost a blessing, because those two aren't half as frustrating as wasting damage/CDs on Shaco clone or Daisy, or any of the other bullshit those two bring to the table.

To say nothing of Ivern giving all his laners buffs for free because why the hell not

129 Comments

Touch My BoxMar 12, 201733 votes

What tools does Shaco bring?

High single target burst that usually results in his death, because he doesn't get a reset escape like Zed, LeBlanc, KhaZix

Minimal and unreliable CC, usually cleaved out in a team fight or just taken out with red trinket.

Lord GalvatronMar 12, 201712 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-12T16:57:41.575+0000)

What tools does Shaco bring?

High single target burst that usually results in his death, because he doesn't get a reset escape like Zed, LeBlanc, KhaZix

Minimal and unreliable CC, usually cleaved out in a team fight or just taken out with red trinket.

The Shako main has a point, he's an 1 all-in kind of champion. If you jump on him after he appears behind his target he's a sitting duck aside from R and Flash which isn't that great for him.

Ivern is still obnoxious but he gets countered by Grievous wounds, pet removal champions, and High mobility comps.

Votable JesterMar 12, 20175 votes

I'm confused, how does Grievous Wounds counter Ivern? Not attacking your post or anything, I just don't understand that part.

NymzoMar 12, 20175 votes

Well most Ivern build Redemption and Athenes.

But for Ivern itself, nothing.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20171 votes

No he doesn't. Shaco will one shot your carry then press R and his team will follow up. By the time you identify the real Shaco he will Q out.

Touch My BoxMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2017-03-13T13:11:01.076+0000)

No he doesn't. Shaco will one shot your carry then press R and his team will follow up. By the time you identify the real Shaco he will Q out.

It takes you 10 seconds to work out which is the real one?

Garbage.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20173 votes

It takes you 10 seconds to work out which is the real one?

If the Shaco has any type of skill he can easily make it difficult to identify the real one

Garbage

You play on OCE and you're low plat after 150 games while abusing Shaco... I don't think you can speak about trash without looking like a hypocrite

Touch My BoxMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=00050000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-13T13:24:52.169+0000)

If the Shaco has any type of skill he can easily make it difficult to identify the real one

You play on OCE and you're low plat after 150 games while abusing Shaco... I don't think you can speak about trash without looking like a hypocrite

You barely break gold kid.

I've played him well over 150 games, hundreds of games each season since his release.

I know almost everything about him, especially his pros and cons.

I know how to fight one, its pretty fucking simple.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20172 votes

You barely break gold kid.

Not very smart are you? This account is a smurf account for fun. It was plat 2 but got decayed to gold 1 because I no longer us it.

I've played him well over 150 games, hundreds of games each season since his release.

That's why you don't want him nerfed. You want to abuse him more

Touch My BoxMar 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=0005000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-13T17:52:35.162+0000)

Not very smart are you? This account is a smurf account for fun. It was plat 2 but got decayed to gold 1 because I no longer us it.

That's why you don't want him nerfed. You want to abuse him more

Yeah, I was abusing him in season 4/5 when he was underplayed as all shit.

I really don't believe it is a smurf account, since you can't understand basic counterplay and adaptive playstyles.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20173 votes

High single target burst that usually results in his death, because he doesn't get a reset escape

Looool stop bsing. Shaco q's in, one shots your adc, then presses R and escapes while his team follows up. Shaco abuser obviously doesn't want nerfs

Touch My BoxMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2017-03-13T13:10:20.917+0000)

Looool stop bsing. Shaco q's in, one shots your adc, then presses R and escapes while his team follows up. Shaco abuser obviously doesn't want nerfs

"presses R and escapes"

Its not a magic ability that teleports him out. It's literally 50:50 whether you land closer to your enemies than your clone does. Shaco player has no control over it.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20172 votes

He one shots your carry then press R WHILE HIS TEAM follows up. If they pick the wrong one they get aced. If they pick the right one... they still lose the fight. You cannot even see him coming because pink wards don't reveal him.

DreadlocksMar 12, 201723 votes

Its like people complaining about old Zed/Leblanc with 48% winrates, but Ahri can stay the same with 52-56% winrate patch after patch because she isnt an "assassin"

TotalJerkMar 12, 20177 votes

Gotta love when people where genuinely complaining about Zed having an "overloaded" kit while Ahri is the fucking abomination she is.

BakedLotionMar 12, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-12T15:59:48.066+0000)

Its like people complaining about old Zed/Leblanc with 48% winrates, but Ahri can stay the same with 52-56% winrate patch after patch because she isnt an "assassin"

its not about winrate, it's about experience. Ahri doesn't give you as much cancer as zed or leblanc

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20172 votes

Really? You really think that? Ahri is one of the most cancerous experiences to play against...

BakedLotionMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2017-03-13T13:12:38.125+0000)

Really? You really think that? Ahri is one of the most cancerous experiences to play against...

Compared to Zed/Lee/Rengar/Kha/Lee/Leblanc? Not even close

MissingKayoMar 12, 201721 votes

Yeah, I feel much better about being deleted instantly by someone who tanks everything thrown at him and lifesteals his entire health bar in 1-2 autos as compared to being killed by an assassin when I'm out of position like a dumbass.

XonraMar 13, 20172 votes

Yup, I usually only die to shaco when I pushed up too far like a moron, or he catches me doing something...like a Moron.

Graves just doesn't literally whatever he wants, and unless I have backup I'm dead regardless.

Under my tower? That sucks, good thing he just dives, tosses smoke so I can't fight back initially, wasting time trying to get out while he kills me, lifestealing the entire time, and dashes away to heal back to full from the incoming minion wave like the turret never attacked him.

resumedMar 12, 201721 votes

nobody cares about ivern because he plays like a support

Touch My BoxMar 12, 201719 votes

Shaco has 0 clear. Shaco has 0 sustain.

Graves just outlevels everyone, outheals everyone and easily escapes most pursuers with his 2 dashes and his nearsight.

Irelia BotMar 12, 20175 votes

Who needs clear when you have powerful ganks

Touch My BoxMar 12, 201721 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-03-12T16:20:48.045+0000)

Who needs clear when you have powerful ganks

"powerful"

Stealth duration is garbage til level 5. Damage is fucking atrocious until 9 + 2 items. Prone to counterjungles Easily fucked over by a level 1 invade.

Ben SharpioMar 12, 201714 votes

how about you learn how to play your champ effectively. You shaco players love to whine about your champ and do it in the dumbest ways, by making it seem like shaco has a crappy kit, when it shows that he is a dominating champion in a solo queue environment, and needs a proper rework for his inherently toxic kit

2Charmnot2CharmMar 12, 20173 votes

how about you learn how to play your champ effectively.

Here's how you fuck a shaco over level 1.

Step 1. buy this item 3341

Step 2. find out where he is starting.

Step 3. Use item 3341 from the other side of the wall

Step 4. profit.

PermabannedGarenMar 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Carries U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=00030000000100000001,timestamp=2017-03-12T21:01:50.399+0000)

Here's how you fuck a shaco over level 1.

Step 1. buy this

Step 2. find out where he is starting.

Step 3. Use from the other side of the wall

Step 4. profit.

How exactly would that help? Red trinket doesn't disable Shaco boxes anymore, so unless you're planning on going over that wall and trying to kill him at level 1 (which is an incredibly risky move that requires team coordination, and is similarly countered by team coordination, it isn't common for a reason), all that is going to do is make your first clear take longer.

2Charmnot2CharmMar 12, 20172 votes

Doesn't it trigger his traps so he has to set up new traps for his jungle clear?

If not then my bad.

PermabannedGarenMar 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Carries U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=0003000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-12T22:25:54.641+0000)

Doesn't it trigger his traps so he has to set up new traps for his jungle clear?

If not then my bad.

Not anymore. Red trinket as of this or last patch no longer disables traps. This includes Shaco boxes, Teemo shrooms, Jhin traps, etc.

ImaSpacePotatoMar 12, 20172 votes

Correct. It does not disable the trap. It triggers them. So they sit there doing nothing, then poof out of existence, leaving Shaco with a much more painful clear.

That still doesn't fix the fact that his invis and ult can still get totally cancer.

GayFluffyUnicornMar 13, 20171 votes

What a load of bullshit. No need to jungle when you can gank 24/7. That's why you take ignite, guaranteed kill on level 3 with red buff from then on you just snowball it out.

Touch My BoxMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What a load of bullshit. No need to jungle when you can gank 24/7. That's why you take ignite, guaranteed kill on level 3 with red buff from then on you just snowball it out.

You know they'll normally start blue and gank after red. Ward properly and you won't give up first blood.

DreadlocksMar 12, 20174 votes

0 clear? He can prep boxes at his first camp and clear super fast. If he backs with 1200 gold he has an insanely fast clear.

Touch My BoxMar 12, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00nFPZ9b,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-03-12T16:50:04.562+0000)

0 clear? He can prep boxes at his first camp and clear super fast. If he backs with 1200 gold he has an insanely fast clear.

Youre fuckin kidding right?

His first clear is good. Afterwards it drops down, especially on camps like Krugs. Chickens are a little easier, but still take time without AoE.
Full clear is like 900g. Without a kill, he wont have 1200 without multiple clears.
When he gets Tiamats, he is then on par with other people who have tiamat-like features in their kits, like Hec, Skarner, Reksai, Graves and Vi. Expect they have also gone back and gained some items, and clear faster.

DreadlocksMar 12, 20172 votes

Reksai also gets Tiamat though... You're saying he has no clear, but you wont admit a 1200 gold item fixes it. lol.

SaladSavior215Mar 12, 20175 votes

what do you mean, if he can get 1200 gold then every jgler can, its the same camps plus and doesnt have any abilities to take out multiple monsters out the same time.

DreadlocksMar 12, 20174 votes

Exactly? and a lot of champions who want the extra wave clear will get Tiamat.. (unless ofc ap/or/ranged)

Gregor GysiMar 12, 20176 votes

I mean Shaco has a 55% winrate in dia+ and a pickrate of over 10% (despite 15% banrate) so that's neat.

SaladSavior215Mar 12, 20172 votes

pick rate of over 10%, and you think that's good? people stopped playing shaco and now he remains alive due to shaco mains who know how to play him.

Gregor GysiMar 12, 20178 votes

10% pickrate in dia is pretty high, 15% banrate is pretty high and he has the 3rd highest winrate. Yes, I think that's good.

ArticalityMar 12, 20179 votes

Did this kid just say its a blessing seeing your enemy pick Lee Sin?!?!

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Legacy HydralphaMar 12, 20176 votes

Of course it's a blessing. People say "holy shit" when they see Lee Sin for a reason.

notice me Sin piMar 12, 20172 votes

it's better than ur ally picking Lee Sin

aMetroidMar 12, 20177 votes

The problem with Ivern is every item he builds is incredibly cheap( item 3174 item 3107 item 3190 ) on top of not having to rush a jungle item.

TotalJerkMar 12, 20175 votes

Also that it's basically impossible to contest a comp against him, and that a team with him effectively gets double the buffs.

nice tableMar 12, 20176 votes

i have counterplay for shaco and ivern for graves on the other hand ... i cant invade graves, i cant fight graves, i cant bully graves and i cannot outscale graves.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20171 votes

What counterplay is there to shaco now? Pink wards don't reveal him anymore

nice tableMar 13, 20171 votes

all the things i cant do against graves i can do against shaco.

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20171 votes

At least you can see Graves coming

nice tableMar 13, 20172 votes

id rather deal with stealth than a champion that has too high numbers at every point in the game.