Ok, can all western players agree?

crabface5·Oct 14, 2016·46 votes·3,230 views

Unfortunately, NA's last hope died yestereday, when SSG took down C9. Now, I'm a fan of great finals between asian teams, but that's been the story for the past 4 years. Can we all agree to cheer on any western team (H2K and ANX) that still remains and prove that the west is not a punching bag for Korea? We have been too focused on the NA>EU/EU>NA crap that we forget that the only reason that exists is because of the fact that the only way either region has made it to the finals was because there were no Asian teams Season 1!

Not sure how anyone else will care as much as I do, but compared to the rest of the board, H2K and ANX need some support. Can we give it to them?

Edit: Yes, ANX is in the CIS/Russian Region, but they are definitely more western than Korea or China

61 Comments

xJLx MCHammerOct 14, 201625 votes

As long as we are not disrespectful to other regions. Don't booo people who we don't want to win

Show respect!

KingKong2350Oct 15, 20162 votes

This no booing thing has got to stop. First we complain about gg ez, now we complain about booing. What happened to just stepping up to the plate and doing

xxxDogmanxxxOct 15, 20168 votes

Yeah, problem is that NA just plain FAILED to step up to the plate, and now the NA crowd is booing SSG just because the NA teams sucked. Just sore losers.

TheSequelsRBadOct 14, 20169 votes

I am 100% cheering for either ANX or H2K, whichever wins. I have never put muh stock in the whole NA vs EU thing.

I am cheering for ANX over H2K, tho.

SevixysOct 15, 20162 votes

Even me as an European am cheering for ANX. Granted, Russia belongs in Europe but not in EU.

ANX has made one of the most surprising success stories in the LCS history. Absolutely enjoying.

Garlic ButterOct 14, 20164 votes

The Fact riot KEEPS saving the Asian team match ups for AFTER they've crushed all the western teams (particularly so making sure that the Korean teams do not fight each other in knock out stages and force an undesirable match up for SKT/SSG for the finals, ensuring one of the teams that put a lot of funds in riots pocket takes worlds), shows some really suspicious behavior, our only hope is for Russian hyper teams to start making the stage, or hopefully one of the wild card regions to come in and sweep finals.

Guest HostOct 15, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Garlic Butter,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yme5w8o9,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-14T23:15:29.264+0000)

The Fact riot KEEPS saving the Asian team match ups for AFTER they've crushed all the western teams (particularly so making sure that the Korean teams do not fight each other in knock out stages and force an undesirable match up for SKT/SSG for the finals, ensuring one of the teams that put a lot of funds in riots pocket takes worlds), shows some really suspicious behavior, our only hope is for Russian hyper teams to start making the stage, or hopefully one of the wild card regions to come in and sweep finals.

No teams from the same region are supposed to fight in the group stages. You distribute the first, second, and third seed teams from each region to different groups so that higher seeds from one region can fight lower seeds from other regions. ROX and SSG got first in their groups stages despite being second and third seeds beating first and second seeds from other regions. And because they got first in their group stages, they could not meet in the quarterfinals. The quarterfinals put first places and second places together from different groups. This is NOT suspicious behavior. It's just how it works. It just shows that KR region completely dominates all other regions.

EpikFeederOct 14, 20163 votes

Always have cheered for the west. After all there is no logical reason other than bandwagoning to fanboy for a specific team. Its not like anyone grew up watching TSM like they did the Chicago Bulls or something. Its literally tryhard kids jumping on the next big hype train. But lets face it.....all the WEST teams do is copy the EAST. That strategy has worked out well for them now hasnt it.......

EnlegacyOct 14, 20163 votes

Well minus ANX. They basically said to the meta fuck you and picked brand support.

Garlic ButterOct 14, 20161 votes

you know its been 10 years right? if you started playing at 12 you are now 22 and "grew up" watching these teams play already. But its well documented by science those team loyalists that behave that way towards sports are exceedingly lacking in mental health (severe psychological problems and dependencies + lack of maturity and life experience)

DolasaurOct 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Always have cheered for the west. After all there is no logical reason other than bandwagoning to fanboy for a specific team. Its not like anyone grew up watching TSM like they did the Chicago Bulls or something. Its literally tryhard kids jumping on the next big hype train. But lets face it.....all the WEST teams do is copy the EAST. That strategy has worked out well for them now hasnt it.......

If you grew up watching the Chicago Bulls, it's because someone in your family was doing it (i.e. bandwagoning when you're young and most easily influenced!). At least for most people. I haven't personally met anyone who's a fan of any team and was like "I watched a variety of different teams with no external influence, and chose to cheer for this specific one because of logical reason X."

MeDicenWeraOct 15, 20163 votes

The right way to not be China or Koreas punching bag is to get better as a region, not to cheer for any non Korean, Chinese team. Not saying this post is dumb or anything, I do want NA to git gud, but good teams should win and bad teams should lose.

TheSequelsRBadOct 15, 20161 votes

To be honest, for the most part China is as much of a punching bag for Korea as any other region.

Papa AndreiOct 14, 20162 votes

ALBUS NOX LUNA!!!!!!! Don't mean to be racist or disrespectful, but it would be nice to see a team I can actually relate with in the finals and get behind. Rather then "Insert generic Asian country username here". It would be nice is all.

Mr SelatciaOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

ALBUS NOX LUNA!!!!!!! Don't mean to be racist or disrespectful, but it would be nice to see a team I can actually relate with in the finals and get behind. Rather then "Insert generic Asian country username here". It would be nice is all.

It doesn't make you racist, it makes you human. "Birds of a feather flock together" actually goes a lot deeper than most people think.

AzmoranOct 14, 20162 votes

H2 what?

The Sword SaintOct 14, 20162 votes

Been rooting for ANX all the way. Would have been nice to see C9 go farther, but that's just a side concern.

FortisDominusOct 14, 20162 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKPlythogic

Monte explains in this video why NA and EU will never do as well as asian teams in international tourns.

PC Trash Go AwayOct 14, 20161 votes

I mean, Korea is hardly the envy of the world. Might as well let them have their national pride where they can get it.

Garlic ButterOct 14, 20161 votes

it's strange they aren't the envy of the world given their #1 or kill yourself societal culture as a whole especially in city social and career life. Granted League isn't well respected there BUT 10 million viewers is still a lot for a "not popular" sport by our standards (not koreas).

And considering all other walks of life they strive and ARE #1 in every business and skill based thing out there... Yet no one is envious (perhaps because of said #1 or commit suicide because you are trash culture no one wants to follow)

JorenciceOct 14, 20161 votes

Psh. America is better in anything invoving weapons and militaries.

Go go more budget than the next 10 countries combined.

Garlic ButterOct 15, 20162 votes

Actually several countries (japan, korea, etc) have weapons technology far exceeding the US's but they found things like Ray guns cause extreme epileptic seizures in some bystanders (amongst other strong harm to bystanders/indiscriminate destruction effects) so because they are decent human beings and come from socializing/care for fellow living beings culture, they don't use any of the technology they've developed.

The US on the other hand ignores UN laws, laws on warfare, etc, making them "seem" like they are better than some countries (remember the US isn't a super power anymore, and isn't even one of the big 5 anymore (they are number 13 or lower now if I recall). Pray they get Trump as president if they want to become a super power again :/

JorenciceOct 15, 20161 votes

What? Americans airforce is the biggest airforce in the world.

Guess whos the 2nd.

The navys airforce.

And our navys naval power is literally bigger than the NEXT 10 NATIONS COMBINED.

Who ever told you america isnt a world power is retarted.

And america has ray gun technology. Its in our active area denial technology.

We are also have been testing lasers to be used in airplanes like starwars and fucking guass cannons that shoot a slug so fast it ignites the very atmosphere due to friction.

Garlic ButterOct 15, 20162 votes

Area denial is illegal under international law without UN permission. Can't just go irradiating entire native's lands to deny a few insurgents ability to travel. But the US has never cared for basic human rights.

LARGEST does not mean most powerful. It used to be based on Country wealth and Nuclear Technology (but now most countries have a nuclear stockpile) and the US has been kicked from "Super Power" spot for some years now (there is just less super powers now... Only china, Russia, north korea and the UK if I recall?)

Guass cannons aren't impressive various countries have had similar railgun technology for decades, Russia is ahead of the US in military power in nearly every area, china has much larger army, japan and korea better weapons technology (also why are you defending the US so hard? it smells like blind patriotism without basic knowledge of what other countries have)

NichtHurzOct 15, 20161 votes

Did the US ever give a fuck about what the UN says? They might listen to this or that, but overall the US doesn't give a fuck about international law and what the rest of the UN says.

And no russia is not really ahead, actually just like 1 or 2 years ago Russia had big problems with old weapons, vehicles and institutions. Maybe in certain areas they're ahead, but looking at the whole military the US does have the highest standard regarding their individual equipment and availability of material. Other countries military might be bigger, might have better technology in certain areas, but just from the overall standard the US are still quite ahead, especially if you think about how spread out US military bases are (which can also be advantagous).

But well, I won't praise US military equip anymore, since the US has fucked up way too many regions of the world since WWII ended (but honest thanks for smashing my country during WWII :p) .

Garlic ButterOct 15, 20161 votes

that there is less than 300 million people in the continental US at any given moment yet they have more land mass than several large countries combined, is an enormous military strategic advantage (even if all the major cities in the US were attack simultaneously it would only effect around 30-50% of the population(accounting for people visiting the big cities during holiday, assuming that's obviously when a war would break out)) towards defense (it should be almost impossible to invade north America in general...except perhaps from central/south America or some minor port town action (new York/sanfranciso)).

Meanwhile say, Japan has 196 million people living in a space no bigger than one of the smaller states in the Americas. (more than half the total US population)... I passed....maybe 300,000-750,000 people a day while I was in Tokyo for 2 weeks and never encountered the same person twice. Firing a seizure inducing ray gun/light show there could accidently kill 100,000s of bystanders very easily (re: new York city, SF, seattle, etc, I passed maybe 15,000-30,000 unique people a day in the "major" "American cities" mostly during just a few key hour time frames).

Yeah just.... nope they aren't a super power they are good bullies and world police no one wants bothering them, if they go back to pre-WWI behavior they'd flourish phenomenally.

woogie36Oct 15, 20161 votes

North Korea is not a super power, they can barely get a missile off the ground. Telling the world you are, does not make it so. In fact, the only one of the countries I would consider a super power would be China, and that's only based off they have the largest standing army, but much of it is poorly trained and equipped. The US has the 2nd largest standing army (granted it is half the size) but is well equipped and trained. The US is not the power it once was, but to act like many countries could really go head to head is laughable. Guerilla warfare is a different game, no army has figured out how to effectively deal with it. It becomes a quagmire, too expensive for so few gains. Who told you this list that you recall? They're lying to you.

Also, most countries do not have a nuclear stockpile. 9 countries have nuclear stockpiles and that's including Israel that has yet to confirm if they do (spoiler: they do, thanks US). Iran might get there eventually, but you're just making this stuff up. Maybe you're thinking of all the countries that are under the US or French nuclear umbrellas? They do not have their own stockpiles, even if the nukes are in their land.

I believe there are 2 super powers, China and the US. Once China gets out of their industrial revolution (assuming they don't crumble from their own weight), it's all pretty much over. But hey, countries have tried inorganic industrial revolutions before (Soviet Union) and it has backfired.

UK is strong, not a super power. We'll see what happens with all the Brexit stuff and the potential political devolution as Wales and Scotland may try to remove themselves from the UK.

Edit: To your point that military strength isn't all, it's true. We could include Germany as a super power with their crazy strong economy. China's economy while vast, largely due to their sheer population, is poorly diversified and they still believe that command economies work. How are all those abandoned cities working out for them? It has a terrible economic power structure, the remnants of peasant communism. The US does owe them a ridiculous amount of money, but if they actually call up that debt and the US can't pay (we can't), then their economy slips, our economy slips, the world economy slips.

Russia is an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy. Most people, while better off than significant portions of the world, have less spending power or even quality products they could buy if they did. Take a look at this website that breaks down all the important aspects of the economy and compares them between Russia and the US. You'll find the US is leading in most categories by shockingly large margins. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Russia/United-States/Economy

The US economy is stagnant, as we no longer benefit from the Marshall Plan from the post-WW2 era. We really don't produce that much other than food, which is nice, we do feed a large portion of the world. We are more technologically advanced than Russia. This may change, our younger generation's education is not keeping up pace with much of the 1st world and we are currently relying on immigrants to keep us in the game. There are a variety of factors contributing to this decline, which could be multiple dissertations on its own. The US is certainly struggling, but in no shape is it not a current super power.

Garlic ButterOct 17, 20161 votes

Thanks for clarifying many of those/these points.

World Power =/= Super Power though. Super Power involves ability to decimate the planet + self sufficient nation if suddenly isolated (aka destroy the rest of the world without anyone's consent). I did not know about the Nuclear Umbrellas.

JorenciceOct 15, 20161 votes

I have no idea what kind of conspiracy websites your getting your info from.

But even anti america websites agree american has the strongest military bar none.

Like 2nd place is even close.

And also not a single navy is the world has a gauss cannon. Also known as a rail cannon in case your getting confused.

NOT A SINGLE ONE.

Theres currently only 1 ship in the ENTIRE WORLD with it and its a custom built american ship.

So yea. Keep lieing your ass off...

EDIT: Also wait... did you just say korea is not only a world power it also has better technology than USA.

HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHA

I thought you were European but i just looked and your from NA. Have you ever learned ANYTHING about the country you live in?

I actually know people people that are deployed in south korea.

I onced asked them how worried the base as a whole is. Being so close to N korea.

His answer was not at all.

Told me theres enough power in the area to level all of north korea 3x over in a week without any nukes.

And thats just the USA forces.

Garlic ButterOct 17, 20161 votes

well you know what? never mind you're right, I concede.

MonkeyMadnessOct 14, 20161 votes

I have a better idea: how about Riot stops jerking themselves off for once in their life and turns LoL into a truly competitive event. Get rid of these arbitrary fucking groups and create regional divisions like every other fucking professional sport. Basically, all they have to do is award quarterfinal spots to the top team in every region (ie NA, EUW, EUNE, Asia, etc) and then fill any remaining spots with wild card teams based on record of the remaining teams. This would stop Korea (and other Asian countries) from taking up 90% of the quarterfinals slots, and might actually help to diversify the game.

ChaoticPineconeOct 15, 20162 votes

Thats not a competitive. That just means teams get easier passes into quarterfinals - where they will (if they dont deserve to be there) get dominated by better teams. In that case, youre sacrificing competition in favor of diversity.

You want NA to do better? Put more focus on scrims and synergy rather than streaming. Unless you win Worlds, you arent making much money for doing well. You get a lot more stable and guaranteed incoming by streaming and sponsors (which in turn pay for your salary). Santorin makes $80,000 guaranteed on Ember, a Challenger team, with a $25,000 performance option. Pretty sure that players on C9 or TSM would be pissed if they make less than a Challenger player on an unknown team, so I assume players like Bjerg make a lot more. BUT if they are willing to take a lesser salary, then they dont need to stream as much for Sponsors (who use them as advertising - companies wont give as much money if your viewer count/hours are lower), and then can spend that time on scrims.

I mean, Ocelote stated that he made almost a $1,000,000 a year playing on SK, and they didnt perform that well either. And the meanwhile, Faker reportedly turned down lucrative offers in China for the chance at winning more championships in Korea.

MonkeyMadnessOct 15, 20161 votes

You missed the point entirely. Professional LoL is not structured properly for a fair and competitive environment. Look at any real professional sports league, like NFL or MLB. That's how pro sports is supposed to work.

ChaoticPineconeOct 15, 20162 votes

No, I got what youre trying to say. Heres something shocking if you didnt know already - the NFL, MLB, and NBA divisions decrease competitiveness.

Lets take the NFL as an example, since its the most glaring with the most amount of divisions. There are 8 divisions, each with 4 teams. Lets look at last year: The playoff team from the AFC South were the Texans - they went 9-7 in the season. The Redskins went to playoffs for the NFC East, and also went 9-7 in the season.

Then lets look at the wildcard teams - for the AFC it was the Chiefs and Steelers. For the NFC it was Green Bay and Seattle. In all 4 of the wildcard games, the wildcard teams won! Some were more convincing than the others: the Chiefs beat the Texans 30-0, and the Packers beat the Redskins 35-15. And it really wasnt surprising , at least for the Chiefs - the Chiefs had a better record at home, had a better record away, had more points that they scored, had less points scored on them, and even beat the Texans during the regular season. That leads us to the question - should the Texans have gone to the playoffs? They made playoffs due to being in a weak division, but got dominated by the second-best team of a different division.

But why have wildcard games? Because money. Team owners, the NFL, and all the TV make money from having more games. By having Wildcard games, they force the players of 4 playoff teams and 4 wildcard teams to face off, and people get to make money off having more games. Plus, it gives us, the fans, another game to watch.

Does it help competitiveness? No, not really. In fact, it decreases competitiveness. By the nature of the divisions, you arent bringing the 8 best teams into the playoffs. What the Divisions do is increase DIVERSITY. Youre forcibly putting one team from each of the 8 different divisions into playoffs, whether they are good or bad. If you do the math, its actually possible to get into the playoffs going 3-13 (there would be a 4 way tie in the division and the playoff team would be decided by the "Strength of Victory" and "Strength of Schedule" parameters). Is that competitive? Not really. Youre basically guaranteeing a complete shutdown of that team in the postseason.

Youre basically giving a decent team in an easy division a free pass into playoffs, while a great team in a extremely difficult division doesnt have that luxury. Are you telling me thats what NA needs? A free pass into the playoffs? Because TSM couldnt even make it out of groups in a division with the Wildcard team from Korea and Splyce.

MonkeyMadnessOct 15, 20161 votes

But why have wildcard games? Because money.

Also to increase the number of teams that make the playoffs. But even still, money is important. Riot and its supporters are constantly bitching about how they run the LCS at a loss, so why the fuck not try to make more money?

Does it help competitiveness? No, not really. In fact, it decreases competitiveness. By the nature of the divisions, you arent bringing the 8 best teams into the playoffs.

This is solely because over the years, some teams have built up a better reputation/earned more money and strengthened their programs. But how fucking retarded would it be if two teams from the same division competed in the Super Bowl every year? That's what's going on in LCS right now, and it's been that way for the past 5 years.

Youre basically giving a decent team in an easy division a free pass into playoffs, while a great team in a extremely difficult division doesnt have that luxury.

This is why you have wild card teams. So that if a good team in a great division gets shafted out of their playoff spot, they can keep playoff hopes alive by maintaining a high win/loss record.

ChaoticPineconeOct 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also to increase the number of teams that make the playoffs. But even still, money is important. Riot and its supporters are constantly bitching about how they run the LCS at a loss, so why the fuck not try to make more money?

Thats neither here nor there. Thats a business decision by Riot - we are talking about competitiveness and the playoff schedule at at Worlds. There are many ways to make more money.

This is solely because over the years, some teams have built up a better reputation/earned more money and strengthened their programs. But how fucking retarded would it be if two teams from the same division competed in the Super Bowl every year? That's what's going on in LCS right now, and it's been that way for the past 5 years.

It doesnt happen in the NFL (ish) because the NFL has mechanisms in place to prevent it from happening. Things like the Salary Cap put all the teams on the same level in terms of money, and the Draft Picks give higher draft picks to losing teams. Then those losing teams can even use those draft picks for trades, if they want a veteran instead of a rookie.

Of course, there are historically great teams who go on streaks - you cant really put a price on a Tom Brady and Bill Belichick combo. But although the Patriots are always superbowl contenders and have been in the past 5 years, you dont see them go to the Superbowl every year.

The LCS is actually quite young, so you dont have these things: we dont know if there are salary caps, but we do know there arent too many mechanisms in place for one team to scout all the best players. There is nothing stopping big organizations like C9, CLG and TSM from obtaining the best talent in NA, and even some of the best talent overseas. We dont see any mechanisms in place like the NFL draft that gives lower teams an advantage in getting the best new players, which is why the teams at the bottom of the standings tend to stay in at the bottom of the standings.

This is why you have wild card teams. So that if a good team in a great division gets shafted out of their playoff spot, they can keep playoff hopes alive by maintaining a high win/loss record.

And this comment made me realize something: think of the LCS as the division, and the Group Stage as the wildcard games. In order to get to Worlds, you need to be the top 2 of the division. Then the 3rd best team gets the wildcard spot. But unlike the NFL, which gives the top 4 teams in each conference automatic qualification into the playoffs, Worlds forces every team to play the WIldcard games.

Basically what happened this year (and most previous years) is that the "good team in the great division" (like SSG, who were 3rd in Korea) beat out the "best team in a subpar division" (TSM). And your original post was asking for TSM to automatically qualify for the Knockout stages, even though SSG is the better team.

MonkeyMadnessOct 15, 20161 votes

It doesnt happen in the NFL (ish) because the NFL has mechanisms in place to prevent it from happening.

Tell that to the Patriots. They must've missed that memo...3 and 1 using a 3rd string quaterback. Even when the league conspires against them, they still win, and you say there are mechanisms to prevent a team from becoming too good? K.

we dont know if there are salary caps, but we do know there arent too many mechanisms in place for one team to scout all the best players. There is nothing stopping big organizations like C9, CLG and TSM from obtaining the best talent in NA, and even some of the best talent overseas.

You kidding? There are absolutely salary caps, or at the very least, these players aren't being paid enough to make it worth their while to seek trades. Also, there are ABSOLUTELY trade restrictions. There were entire teams banned from competing due to a very bullshit trade violation (and by that I mean, they tried to scout talent from other teams, and got called out for "poaching" even though this is a very common thing in every other professional sport, and keeps the competition high). Also, there are MASSIVE boundaries to NA snatching up players from overseas, and it's called "immigration policy". There have recently been some changes made, but until VERY recently, professional gaming was not considered a job, and therefore would not qualify players for a work visa. Therefore, they would have to actually become citizens to be on an NA team. So ya, perhaps do some research before you spew that nonsense. Riot runs the LCS like a fucking child's playdate, and until they fix this, expect boos from every NA fan who is sick of seeing Asia walk away with both finals slots in literally every LCS Championship.

ChaoticPineconeOct 17, 20161 votes

The league doesnt conspire against the Pats. Thats just New England's way of thinking. A qb whose been around the game go so long at a high level like Tom Brady - someone who takes his job seriously enough to eat perfectly just to stay healthy - should and would know an underinflated football from a properly inflated one. Not the most scientific and proper test, but Drew Brees was able to tell a properly inflated football at 13oz from one that was 11oz on the Conan show.

And I never said there were mechanisms in place to prevent a team from doing too well. I said there were mechanisms in place for lower-ended teams to get the best new talent. Thats why the top receivers are all on different teams - you dont see teams stack 3-4 all-star wide receivers. Thats why the Dallas Cowboys, a generally decent/poor playoff team, was able to draft Zeke (they got lucky with Dak).

And about salary caps - there isnt a union for LCS, so we dont know if there are salary caps. And Salary caps are a moot point if the organizations cant actually afford the cap. Currently the NFL has a $155 million salary cap, and they are required to spend between 85%-95% of their cap over a period of 3-4 years. With unused cap space from 2015 (since in the NFL you can use unused cap space for the next year), there is only one team in 2016 who didnt hit the cap - and its only by a $1 million. Does this happen in the LCS? Is Echofox paying their players the same as TSM? We dont know.

And the restrictions, from what I can tell about the whole Renegades scandal, is more about poaching than anything. You cant make agreements with players who are contracted to play with another team during their contract. Dont know why youd think thats BS. It stops situations like "Oh, Doublelift - we signed you to TSM next split. Maybe you should throw this finals in favor for the team youre going to be on for the next few years." But I dont know how you think that stops teams from scouting and signing all the best new players. When Stixxay joined CLG, was there a system in place for lesser teams to get a shot at him first? Right now its the team with money that generally wins - the ones who can scout, hold tryouts for players all over the globe, and the one who can pay as high of a salary as they want.

I dont know what the hell you mean about trades. What do you mean, "players arent being paid enough to seek trades"? Thats EXACTLY WHY you seek trades, if your goal is money. And thats what happens in NA. Thats what happened in Korea with the mass exodus. But the ones dedicated to winning over anything - the ones who can ignore the paycheck in favor of a better chance at a championship - are the ones who can sacrifice their salary, sacrifice their sponsors, sacrifice their living conditions for a better chance at winning.

I dont disagree that the LCS isnt run well. But unlike you, I think NA should earn their way into a championship instead of being given it to them. Keep booing. All it shows is that NA isnt good, and youre bitter about having the worst international showing of any region. But unlike you who finds anyone but the organizations and players to blame, I put the blame on the players.

MonkeyMadnessOct 18, 20161 votes

The league doesnt conspire against the Pats.

The standard fine for an "equipment violation" is $25,000. The Pats were fined $1million, and 2 early round draft picks. NFL players that are accused of violent crimes (like assault and domestic violence) are frequently given a 2 game suspension. Brady got 4 games for an offense that is in no way, shape, or form a criminal allegation. You can say that technically, Goodell has the power to do this, but you are a complete idiot if you think he's not being harsher because it's the Pats. Notice how I not once tried to claim his innocence, in fact, I do believe that it is "more probably than not" that Brady knew, and therefore I'm generally ok with the standard "slap on the wrist" punishment for such violations. But the punishments that the team and Brady himself received were FAR from the recommended sanctions for the type of offense.

Also, I am very much aware that the worst teams get the best draft picks (or at least that's the intent). But they lack the money to keep these players, and they often end up on good teams like the Pats eventually. Look at Eli Manning: he actually refused to play for the team that originally drafted him, and said that if he wasn't traded immediately, he'd leave the sport all together and enter himself in the baseball draft.

It also really doesn't matter, because you are missing the point. People watch pro sports because they "identify" with a certain team. The way the LCS is set up, this becomes very difficult for NA and EU fans, because the NA and EU teams are almost exclusively eliminated by the time the quaterfinals role around. Setting up the game like a real pro sport would allow NA and EU fans to remain invested for much longer, and just makes more sense.

ChaoticPineconeOct 18, 20161 votes

First of all about deflategate, look at what happened - it wasnt just one equipment violation. The NFL rules state that footballs must be inflated to 13PSI +/- .5: you get a range of 12.5-13.5 where youre okay. They found 1/11 of the Patriot's footballs below 11, with 10 under 12. The 4 Colt's footballs were all above 12. Now, with the difference in temperature at testing and deflation from use, there is some room for error - thats why the Colts werent punished for being below the 12.5 limit. But when 10/11 of the footballs the Patriots used were below the lowest Colts ball (12.15 PSI), you have to admit it seems fishy. But since you can at least acknowledge that somethings fishy, lets move to the second point.

This was a football violation, and it makes sense that the Pats, as a football organization, get punished for it. Youre right - NFL players who commit assault or domestic violence get 2 game suspensions. But those are CRIMES, not football violations. Just like it isnt the District Attorney's job to investigate into deflated footballs and assign NFL punishment, it isnt the NFL's job to monitor, investigate, and punish NFL players who commit criminal acts. Now, do i believe those guys should be in jail? You bet. But the NFL doesnt have the power to arrest, investigate, charge, and try them for their criminal acts. They did nothing more than what I would expect from an employer who wants to keep the employee. If the DA did their job and put these guys in jail, then they wouldnt be playing football. (ahem - think Mike Vick). But the NFL had to do something in order to stop the backlash.

And thirdly, i think the punishment might have been a bit harsher than it would for other teams because of the history of the team, mainly Spygate. They were already on the radar for breaking the rules and using unauthorized ways to get an advantage (with the same Head coach and QB combo), and already faced huge fines (the largest given to a Coach) and draft picks in the past. As a repeat offender, the punishment was higher the second time around. And as a football punishment in todays game, it seems right in line with the other rule-related punishments. Gordon and Bell got suspended for 3/4 games for a substance abuse violation. Burficit got suspended for 3 for being too aggressive.

Eli Manning fits into the example I used that bad teams get draft picks to which they can use how they see fit. In the Charger's case, they essentially gave up a 1st overall pick for 4th overall + a 3rd round pick in 2004 and a 1st round in 2005. And if the Chargers refused to trade Eli? Well, Eli cant play football. These mechanisms still helped lesser teams like the Chargers gain a lot of good players, even when it doesnt work out perfectly - they went from 4-12 in 2003 to 14-2 in 2006.

And no team "lacks money" to keep the players. The $155 million salary cap is well below the threshold that football teams can afford. The currently POOREST franchise (BIlls) is worth $1.5 billion. The richest has $4.2 (Cowboys). And some notable teams in the recent past are on the lower end of the scale - the Saints, Panthers, and Chiefs are all near the bottom, while the Cowboys and Niners are #1 and #4 (doesnt really apply to the Cowboys now, but before this season their record didnt reflect their wealth). The salary cap is what limits organizations from signing all the best and most expensive players, not what the organization can actually afford.

What about the LCS? According to http://www.lazygamer.net/esports/2015s-top-5-esports-organizations-worth/ TSM and C9 are worth around $30 million, though to be fair they arent just a LoL organization. Echofox was bought for $1 million.

Look - I get it. It would be nice for some hometown favorites to make their mark at Worlds. But I dont want them to succeed when they have all the cards in their hand. They should go head-to-head with the competition and pull off victories. If they are eliminated, they deserved to be eliminated. No NA team should make it to the quarterfinals by virtue of being from NA - they should be good enough to handle and beat the competition. If they cant do that, its on the players. NA have some world class players - Bjerg would be considered the best if it wasnt for Faker, Impact is one of the best toplaners, Double is one of the best ADCs, and Aphro is THE BEST support. If they cant make it past teams like Albus Nox, then its from a lack of performance on their part.

And EU has made it to the semifinals all but one year. If EU can consistently do it, then I have to believe that NA can too.

MonkeyMadnessOct 19, 20161 votes

At this point, you are disagreeing with PROFESSIONAL football analysts, not just me. Many of the guys on Sports Center and other talk shows, even the ones that absolutely hate Brady/the Pats believe the punishment was utterly ridiculous. If you want to disagree with people that are paid to have the absolute best handle on situations like this, well then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

And thirdly, i think the punishment might have been a bit harsher than it would for other teams because of the history of the team, mainly Spygate.

So many teams have admitted to doing exactly this. The only actual issue is that the Pats got caught. Also, and more importantly, biasing your decisions based on previous rulings makes Goodell a complete and utter piece of shit, and literally 0 people (fans and analysts, at least) would argue that.

Eli Manning fits into the example I used that bad teams get draft picks to which they can use how they see fit.

I'm also not sure how this got brought up, as there is no draft system for LCS, so this is entirely irrelevant to our argument.

And no team "lacks money" to keep the players.

Debatable, as the amount that a team is worth and the amount that a team can feasibly spend are NOT the same. Also, some teams just won't be willing to pay out as much as other teams, simply because they aren't as rich. If a Tyrod Taylor had a great season, and then up and declared that he would only accept a minimum of $30million/year, the Bills would dump him immediately, and another team would like pick up that ridiculous salary, because they can afford that investment.

Look - I get it. It would be nice for some hometown favorites to make their mark at Worlds. But I dont want them to succeed when they have all the cards in their hand. They should go head-to-head with the competition and pull off victories. If they are eliminated, they deserved to be eliminated. No NA team should make it to the quarterfinals by virtue of being from NA - they should be good enough to handle and beat the competition. If they cant do that, its on the players. NA have some world class players - Bjerg would be considered the best if it wasnt for Faker, Impact is one of the best toplaners, Double is one of the best ADCs, and Aphro is THE BEST support. If they cant make it past teams like Albus Nox, then its from a lack of performance on their part.

This logic will surely see professional LoL die out in American and Europe, as we simply do not put the emphasis on pro gaming that Asia does. If this is what you wish, then please continue to support Riot's idiotic structuring of the LCS, but I would like to see this game actually reach a comparable level to true professional sports.

ChaoticPineconeOct 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

At this point, you are disagreeing with PROFESSIONAL football analysts, not just me. Many of the guys on Sports Center and other talk shows, even the ones that absolutely hate Brady/the Pats believe the punishment was utterly ridiculous. If you want to disagree with people that are paid to have the absolute best handle on situations like this, well then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

You can bow down to these "professional analysts" from the NFL, but they didnt come out as a unit and say the punishment was too harsh. Some said it was too harsh, others said it wasnt, others said it was a tad too harsh but well within the Commissioners power (and that it was the players own fault for giving him that power in the collective bargaining agreement).

But the analysts who said it was too harsh - guess what? They think a lot of punishments are too harsh. People thought Bountygate was too harsh with 4 players suspended (totaling 30 or so games) + a ton of the coaching staff suspended for the next season, and that was a situation where the alleged conduct wasnt even illegal - after the entire investigation they found that all the hits were clean hits and none of them were even flagged.

So many teams have admitted to doing exactly this. The only actual issue is that the Pats got caught. Also, and more importantly, biasing your decisions based on previous rulings makes Goodell a complete and utter piece of shit, and literally 0 people (fans and analysts, at least) would argue that.

Teams have admitted to filming, sure. Filming isnt against the rules. What the Pats did was film from the opponent's sideline, which was outside of the "allowed area to film". No other team admitted to doing that - thats basically asking the NFL for a fine and relinquishing draft picks. Tell me a team that came out publicly stating that they filmed opposing teams from their own sideline.

And the DECISION wasnt based on the past. The decision was based on the evidence provided, mainly the Patriot's footballs that were measured and the investigation. The PUNISHMENT was based on past behavior - how ridiculous would it be if a 1st time cheater got punished the same as an organization that was caught cheating 20 times previously? Of course you punish repeat offenders more harshly, cause apparently getting a slap on the wrist didnt stop you from cheating. I mean, this is how punishment works in the United States - repeat offenders get harsher punishments. If this is news to you, I dont know what to tell you.

I'm also not sure how this got brought up, as there is no draft system for LCS, so this is entirely irrelevant to our argument.

It came up during the talk about divisions. You said that pro sports use divisions and it increases competitiveness. I said that it doesnt increase competitiveness, but other mechanisms are in place that do increase competitiveness (like draft picks and the salary cap). As far as we know, Riot doesnt have these for League.

But thats a long winded way of saying that allowing the winners of the division to automatically reach playoffs doesnt create better competition.

Debatable, as the amount that a team is worth and the amount that a team can feasibly spend are NOT the same. Also, some teams just won't be willing to pay out as much as other teams, simply because they aren't as rich. If a Tyrod Taylor had a great season, and then up and declared that he would only accept a minimum of $30million/year, the Bills would dump him immediately, and another team would like pick up that ridiculous salary, because they can afford that investment.

Let me try to explain this one more time - there is a salary cap. This means that teams cannot spend more than $155 million this year on their players contract. But along with a salary cap, there is also a salary minimum: in the next 3 years (or 4 years, depending on the NFLPA or NFL rules), the teams need to spend on average at least 85% or 90% of that salary cap. Teams dont refuse to sign players because they cant afford it - they refuse to sign players if the money to sign would make them exceed the cap, or they dont want to use up their cap space on one player.

For your example, if Taylor wanted $30 million a year the Bills would dump him, of course. Not because the Bills organization cant afford $30 million, but because Tyrod Taylor just isnt worth 30/155 of your capspace. He currently takes up 10/155 of your capspace. Think of how many people you have to cut with the extra $20 million he is hypothetically asking for.

Again, the NFL and the NFLPA has mechanisms in place so this imaginary situation you have in your mind doesnt happen. They basically tell the organization that they need to spend between $140-$155 million on average over a 4 year period. Teams are forced to spend a certain amount of money on their players. Its not that some teams are too poor to sign these $25 million players - they just dont want to put that much of their allowance on one person.

This logic will surely see professional LoL die out in American and Europe, as we simply do not put the emphasis on pro gaming that Asia does. If this is what you wish, then please continue to support Riot's idiotic structuring of the LCS, but I would like to see this game actually reach a comparable level to true professional sports.

Do you honestly believe what youre saying?

You seem to know a lot about football, so let me give you an analogy. The 49ers have a huge, dedicated fanbase, but are getting wreaked by the competition. How absolutely ridiculous would it be if someone said, "Well, the 49ers arent putting the emphasis on head coaches and defense like the Patriots. But in order to keep the organization alive and not let it die out in SF/San Jose, how about we give them an automatic playoff spot." Thats basically what youre asking for.

I seriously dont understand how someone can say that NA teams should automatically make playoffs at Worlds, when no other team gets that treatment. Its not Riot's fault that NA didnt show up at worlds. If Albus Nox managed to get out of groups, no way in hell CLG shouldnt be able to.

MonkeyMadnessOct 19, 20161 votes

well within the Commissioners power

Which is potentially being challenged in the fucking Supreme Court...

People thought Bountygate was too harsh

You clearly have 0 morals. This "scandal" was a literal attempt to INJURE opposing players for the benefit of your team. This is the single worst thing for the sport, and to debate this is simply retarded.

Teams have admitted to filming, sure. Filming isnt against the rules.

Actually, teams have admitted to filming the defensive/offensive signals of opposing teams. "Stealing signs" is very common in all sports, though often frowned upon, and is the reason why non-verbal signals become so complex and often vary from game to game.

Also, all this arguing regarding the NFL is entirely detracting from the point. If you want proLoL to die in America, then continue supporting the LCS in the manner that Riot currently runs it. Done. That's all there is to it. As long as Korea and other Asian countries maintain their 100% win rate, American and European fans will lose interest, and the game will die.

Oh, and I just thought of a great analogy: check out the Rio Olympics women's gymnastics. Even though Americans placed in the top 3 slots for the all-around competition, only 2 were allowed to compete, so that other countries could have a fair shot at a medal. This is exactly the opposite of what Riot is doing, and it fucking sucks.

ChaoticPineconeOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Which is potentially being challenged in the fucking Supreme Court...

Means nothing. Well, it means one thing - that Brady appealed to the Court of Appeals and lost. You can appeal anything to the SC. Getting Cert is another story, and winning beyond that is even more difficult.

You clearly have 0 morals. This "scandal" was a literal attempt to INJURE opposing players for the benefit of your team. This is the single worst thing for the sport, and to debate this is simply retarded.

The entire thing was investigated - the hits in question were 100% legal and clean hits. None were dirty, none were unauthorized contact, none were late, none were flagged in-game, and none drew even a Personal Foul of any kind. Nobody would bat an eye if there wasnt a money pool involved. Football is a contact sport. Getting hit is part of the game. When Cam or Luck gets rocked by a defense, people call that a good defense. When Cam gets hit over and over and is slow to get up, thats a good defense. When someone like Khalil Mack knocks a QB off their feet and forces a fumble (fumbles arent forced by gently nudging the QB, ya know), they call him all-pro.

But the NFL has a problem with image, especially concerning injury. Thats why they suspended these players. The actual hits had nothing to do with it - it was the fact that endorsing this behavior would be bad press. But lets be honest here - football encourages hits. In fact, weak hits or arm tackling is strongly discouraged, even in High School Football or Pop Warner. If you dont think that this is how football is played, then I'd say youve never put on a helmet or pads in your life.

Actually, teams have admitted to filming the defensive/offensive signals of opposing teams. "Stealing signs" is very common in all sports, though often frowned upon, and is the reason why non-verbal signals become so complex and often vary from game to game.

Read my comment again. Ill just be repeating myself otherwise. FIlming isnt illegal. Filming where Belichick filmed was. (and by the way, there was a rule change in 2006 and a memo sent to all teams notifying them of the proper places to film. Belichick decided to ignore it and keep doing what he wanted to do).

Also, all this arguing regarding the NFL is entirely detracting from the point. If you want proLoL to die in America, then continue supporting the LCS in the manner that Riot currently runs it. Done. That's all there is to it. As long as Korea and other Asian countries maintain their 100% win rate, American and European fans will lose interest, and the game will die.

EU wont lose interest - theyve made it to the semis many times. Only NA has a problem because they can barely make it out of groups at best. You just sound sour as hell cause NA is complete trash at Worlds. Thats the only reason why you have a problem.

I have a question for you - do you think Brazil's INTZ should automatically qualify for the knockout stage?

Oh, and I just thought of a great analogy: check out the Rio Olympics women's gymnastics. Even though Americans placed in the top 3 slots for the all-around competition, only 2 were allowed to compete, so that other countries could have a fair shot at a medal. This is exactly the opposite of what Riot is doing, and it fucking sucks.

Terrible analogy.

Yes, the Olympics have a rule where only 2 from each country are allowed to compete. Just like Riot allowed C9/CLG/TSM to compete. Its not like the OGN or LPL are allowed 10 teams while NA only gets 3. All major regions are allowed 3 teams.

But youre not complaining about the number of teams allowed to compete. Youre complaining that NA, when they are given 3 slots out of 16, cant hold their own with the rest of the world. They were given a fair and equal opportunity. Is it the Olympics fault when a country like Italy loses at Gymnastics? And would it be fair if the Olympics showed favoritism to Italy with automatic qualification into the finals because the U.S. keeps winning the gold in gymnastics? Cause thats what youre asking for - for Riot to show favoritism because the OGN keeps winning the gold.

MonkeyMadnessOct 20, 20161 votes

Means nothing

Means that Collective Bargaining and other laws governing the League are being brought into question. In short, means a lot.

the hits in question were 100% legal and clean hits.

And also, 100% had the intent to injure and otherwise knock other players out of the game, hence why it was investigated.

If you dont think that this is how football is played, then I'd say youve never put on a helmet or pads in your life.

I played school football for 5 years, 2 of which was on Varsity so ya, I do, in fact, know a thing or two about football, and I also understand that headhunting is INCREDIBLY unsportsmanlike, and therefore any and all penalties were 100% justifiable.

Yes, the Olympics have a rule where only 2 from each country are allowed to compete. Just like Riot allowed C9/CLG/TSM to compete. Its not like the OGN or LPL are allowed 10 teams while NA only gets 3. All major regions are allowed 3 teams.

Let me rephrase: only 2 per country were allowed to participate in the event final. Unlike League, entirely. Done.

ChaoticPineconeOct 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Means that Collective Bargaining and other laws governing the League are being brought into question. In short, means a lot.

No, it means the NFLPA and Brady's lawyer asked the Supreme Court to hear them on why they think the laws governing Unions** should be** brought into question. Like I've said - you can petition for cert in the Supreme Court for any legal reason (as opposed to a factual reason).

The Supreme Court gets something like 10,000 petitions for cert every year. They generally grant oral arguments to less than 100. So at this point, it really doesnt mean anything. If it gets denied like 99% of petitions do, then the case is done. So unless the SC grants cert, filing a petition really doesnt mean anything.

And also, 100% had the intent to injure and otherwise knock other players out of the game, hence why it was investigated.

I played school football for 5 years, 2 of which was on Varsity so ya, I do, in fact, know a thing or two about football, and I also understand that headhunting is INCREDIBLY unsportsmanlike, and therefore any and all penalties were 100% justifiable.

If you werent told to hit as hard as you can, I assume you played QB. Cause no other position teaches you to hit lightly.

Headhunting is the part of contact sports. Football does it. Hockey does it. Rugby does it. Sometimes its part of the rules to win, like a TKO in boxing or tapping out in MMA.

And lets be clear here - the hits were not punished. The injuries that were caused was not punished. The actual practice of getting your opponent out of the game is still in place, and no NFL rule prohibits it or punishes it. Only the exchange of money was prohibited - the hits were fine, and nobody in the NFL has ever said otherwise.

Let me rephrase: only 2 per country were allowed to participate in the event final. Unlike League, entirely. Done.

Only 2 per country of the ones who actually qualified. Again, Italy didnt qualify at the Rio Olympics - do you think they should get a free pass into finals? How about INTZ - they didnt qualify for semis at Worlds, so should they get a free pass? Why are you so insistent that TSM gets a free pass?

Admit it - your position makes no logical sense. You just want TSM or CLG to make it to semis, even if they are complete trash. Thats possibly the stupidest idea ive ever heard. You might as well just ask for the trophy then.

MonkeyMadnessOct 29, 20161 votes

it really doesnt mean anything.

Jesus Christ, clearly you are not informed on this issue. This was brought to federal court (and they are trying to bring it to the Supreme Court) to challenge whether or not Rodger Goodell has the power to act as judge, jury, and executioner (as he clearly did in the deflategate case). Not once did they challenge the validity of the accusations in court, they only challenged the legality of the process.

If you werent told to hit as hard as you can, I assume you played QB. Cause no other position teaches you to hit lightly.

Evidently you have never played football. An effective hit is NOT the hardest hit possible, but one that brings the ball carrier to the ground. If you go in for a huge hit, all it takes is a bit of finesse and the guy is right past you as you as you charge like a retarded bull right past him.

Headhunting is ILLEGAL in ALL sports without question. A pitcher that throws at a batter who as previously "wronged" him or his team is usually automatically tossed. Hockey does not do it. Rugby does not do it. And football certainly does not do it. You clearly do not understand what bountygate was. Let me clarify: coaches were paying players to intentionally injure opposing players in order to put their opponents at a disadvantage. If you say that this is ok and/or part of the game, I sincerely do not know how you can function in real life where behavior is governed by ethics and morals, as you clearly have neither.

The actual practice of getting your opponent out of the game is still in place, and no NFL rule prohibits it or punishes it.

Wrong again. Every hear of "unnecessary roughness"? How about "roughing the passer"? Or perhaps "illegal head contact"? These penalties (and some others) are frequently flagged when a referee believes that a player hit an opponent significantly harder than was considered necessary. Usually this hits are pretty blatant, like if a player is already tied up by a primary tackler and a second player comes in and annihilates him while he's already effectively stopped, but I have seen these called on players with a history of over-aggressive hits. Now, the head contact penalties are designed to reduce the number of concussions, which has become outrageous in recent year. The point is, if you are hitting someone with the intent to injure, you will almost certainly be flagged for it. If you actually followed football, you would know this, so please stop debating that which you clearly do not understand.

Only 2 per country of the ones who actually qualified.

You dumb? That is literally the exact way the LCS is set up. The MSI determines seeding for the Championship tournament (and I believe also eliminate entire regions from the competition) and then teams play in the group stages for a spot in the "playoffs" (quarter finals in this case). If Riot wants NA and EU to lose interest in the pro scene, then by all means they should keep allowing 2 Asian teams into the finals (as they have done since season 2). But if they actually want to make some money on this, they need to make the competition fair for everyone, instead of blatantly favoring one overpowered region. And before you say anything, not other professional sport functions like this. Football has conferences, baseball has divisions, other sports have divisions. You qualify for the playoffs by winning your division. That way, if one division just so happens to dominate the others, they don't all end up in the playoffs every year. It's common fucking sense to anyone that knows anything about how a traditional competitive sport is run, but Riot thinks they know better than the millions if not billions of people that follow real sports.

Truly PridefulOct 15, 20161 votes

I'll take ANX or ROX. Just please not SSG or SKT because we have those skins already.

Dr PoroOct 16, 20161 votes

Agreed, I always hoped that as many NA/EU teams as possible go through. I was pretty sad when TSM didn't make it and when C9 got crushed 3-0.

The saddest thing is that if SSG wins their next fight, it will once again be a tournament where Koreans only got beaten (sent home) by other Korean teams. It's looking like the gap between Korea and the rest of the world is getting bigger instead of shrinking. Gratz to Korea, I guess, they have the right to be proud.