FORG1VEN

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T00:17:10.594+0000)

being able to play champs in solo Q is different being effective on them in pro team play...

and typically most pro players have 1-2 champs they want and maybe 3-4 they can play effectively at pro level

and team comps dictate alot of that as well... pre game strategy/ team comp strats/ lane match ups etc... its not just who he wants to play...

if that was the case wouldnt double lift play vayne every game and wildturtle play cait every game

and so on ?

Vayne isn't any good. I'd say Kalista is Stixxay's number 1 champion, but she sucks atm. He could have played Jhin or ashe instead of Sivir. There is a reason those champions are meta. They simply fit into a ton of comps. Ezreal, too. Even Sivir fits. I'm not even bad mouthing the pick. Its the fact he didnt do anything on it. How many games have we seen a late-game sivir dominate? A ton. He didn't do anything on his 2nd tier pick after Cait was banned. Also, Vander was picking Zyra. Ashe/Jhin fit with Zyra and pretty much whatever they picked. They also work with Karma. There was no reason not to pick at least Jhin or Ezreal when they both allow lane dominance with those 2 supports. Hell, Sivir wasnt even optimal the last game. Trundle is going to be split pushing, and no one really needed a speed up.

He has a weak champion pool. It has been a knock on Forgiven since he first started getting "banned out." Hell, it just looks even worse than before if he can ONLY play Cait out of all the meta picks available.

He really didn't perform very well on Sivir. I dont even think the pick was bad in game 1. It was pretty pointless in game 2 and 3. You can blame the coach all you want, but as stubborn as Forgiven is, you have to throw some blame on him. I mean he just flat out refuses to play some champs. Look at Kalista. Look at Jhin.

I'm not saying Forgiven is bad. I'm saying hes overrated.

{quoted}

The point is, how can you label him the best Western ADC for clearing waves and not dying? I mean has Forgiven ever had an international performance like the one stixxay had at MSI? And on that note, why are you giving Forgiven a pass here for doing his job clearing waves and pushing lanes within his team's strategy, but then people turn around and badmouth and discredit Stixxay's accomplishments because they peeled for him at MSI so he could do damage and carry games? Is that not a hypocritical stance? I still routinely see how Stixxay didn't do shit but do dps while his team peeled for him at MSI (has to be one of the more ludicrous arguments ive ever heard), yet here someone is trying to tell me Forgiven did well because he did his job within his team; farming waves.

Also, the point is, generally players who are labeled "best" make plays, and do things. Not farm waves. There is a ton of KDA players out there who farm jg/waves nonstop and you dont label them best X. Forgiven didn't do a single thing this series to live up to that hype. I guarantee you put someone like Bang on Sivir and hes crushing teamfights; not side lane waves. I mean I think we had this kind of conversation about why people thought DL was better than Stixxay and it was because he made his own plays more than Stixxay(which is pretty false, but whatever its the argument). Yet here we are labeling Forgiven best western ADC for farming waves of minions and not dying. AKA not making plays.

Also, I would hope someone labeled Best X would have an effective champion pool of more than 2 champs, and could actually PLAY the meta champs. I feel like thats at least a baseline requirement. How are you going to label someone best western ADC when he gets banned out of the meta off 1 ban?

There just seems to be a lot of excuse making and double standards that go into these. He played bad, he was mediocre, and his champion pool sucks; even the enemy team came out and said it. Not to mention, one more Caveat. The only western adc any koreans ever mention, is Stixxay. Do you ever hear them mention Forgiven at all?

OK, simple stuff first. No reason to bag on Stixxay for his team peeling around him. Others might, but if he's doing his job in the strategy and it's working, Kudos. He's one of the best in the World, and if you think he's better than Forgiven, OK. Not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but why I feel my opinion is right. I would give Forgiven more praise because he worked outside the normal pattern of "how to ADC" and it worked very well. When he was part of team fights, he was strong because of that farming and worked like a surgeon, dealing damage and cutting the enemy down while rarely in position to be taken out. That's not flashy, but it was effective.

As for the champ thing, I already kinda argued my view on that, I think Riot right now has done a terrible job with the ADC champs and balance, which is why there is 2 or 3 times more carries unused than used by pros, and only about 4 used consistently. I don't think it necessarily reflects so badly on a player when so much of that role's pool isn't viable and it adversely affects that player. I mean, it's not like he was totally made to look like a clown like Likkrit was whenever he didn't get Brand.

He could have done better and could improve, but in the end, how many other ADCs really did better than him?