Everyone can beat everyone
sOAZ should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be allowed to pick a champ like Lissandra or Lulu in top lane. He will just always be freaking bad on these champions
Fnatic scouting and support staff
Maszii2 votesThis game showed why PoE isnt that good as everybody thinks he is.
Ale non è male1 votesNah, it shows how OG are dependent on sOAZ PoE didn't do that bad, heck, it's not like Febiven was a guy against he should have been heavy favourite
Kinjishi1 votes"Nah, it shows how OG are dependent on sOAZ"
Ale non è male1 votesNope, they are dependent on sOAZ Suggest a xPeke return is no sense. Both games PoE hold his own vs the likes of Febiven and Ryu till the point the enemy team snowballed too much for whole OG team to do anything, so he is clearly not the problem - just like incaranti0n was not the problem for C9 last season - The problem is that, exactly like the historic FNC squad (sOAZ-Peke-Yellowstar), while peke and YellowStar have always beein kinda solid, sOAZ is the one which performances can vary the most...as we saw in S4 and in S5, he can go from being a guy that fight toe to toe with koreans to a guy who is mid to bottom tier among EU LCS top laners to go again toe to toe with koreans, and this is due more to the meta/champ he is playing than anything (and in S4 he played with Peke that was better than S5 peke and they crumbled down anyway, just for istances) And, sOAZ doesn't even have that small of a champ pool like some 1 meta ponies out there, it is just that on non tank Ap champs he is not very good as he is the rest of his champ pool. It is beyond me how guys professionally paid to coach teams haven't recognize that despite multiple evidences
Rethink to both games with sOAZ being on different champs and not going so behind earlier, and you can guess games could have gone differently
I think all of OG has to step up a bit, cause only mithy so far as been up to his previous season standards (even Zven/Niels/Amazing have not played as well), and for this week one only, the internet issue they had when the new patch rolled out for tournament realm + the strong teams they faced with little information about how they would play make the losses a bit more acceptable...but there are underlying problems they must quickly solve, and one of these problems is pick and bans, especially the champions given to sOAZ, because if you give him no tank AP champions you could pretty much have a situation like S4 Summer + Worlds with a lot of inconsistency from the entire team and unfavourable mismatches on top lane
Earl Eulrich1 votescurrently the problem is not Soaz but their Champ select - Kreppo already had it right when he said they were way too greedy. You just can´t go for a double-Roa setup without much waveclear in a meta were most games are deceided within 15min because Riot patched all comeback chances out of the game this preseason. They just play like it´s still worlds and you can happily farm for 30min with Anivia and then kite it all out.
I really think you´re a bit too biased about Soaz playing AP (also, start of the season is the best time to let him learn it a bit more - as they will need the versatility in the playoffs)...it´s just as Kreppo said, if you have a Ryze+Kassa and they successfully laneswap you would ff at 10 in a scrim as that match is pretty much over. That really had nothing to do with Soaz playing the Champ, any toplaner would have been beaten up by this.
Ale non è male1 votesThe problem is on both sides, really Their champ select was undoubtedly really bad, and one of the reason why it was bad was put sOAZ in those kind of match-ups(and laneswap in the second game). But the fact that sOAZ isn't exactly proficient on playing those kind of AP champs made the situation even worse, because also a not completely terrible team comp like the one they had in FNC game ended up in a disaster that could have been avoided if sOAZ was a better player on these champions. A better top laner on AP champs like, for example, Odoamne, could have tried to cushion a bit/a lot those early game struggles, leading Olaf to snowball less and drag the game longer where OG comp would have finally reached their power spike
I don't think sOAZ has suddenly regressed, he is not S4 sOAZ, but still he should acknowledge he can't play those kind of AP champs as well as the rest of his champ pool and he should be more vocal aout trying to avoid to get these picks as much as possible if the coach or his mates lose a bit their focus on his struggles and give him these kind of champs because of abstract comp ideas they can come up with...after all sOAZ has a kinda big champ pool, so it's not like taking these champs out from his champ pool is going to limit the team strategies as much - heck, he can indeed play tank ap champs -
Earl Eulrich1 votesnah, PoE beat Febiven pretty heavily till lvl 6 - then Zac just completly tilted the matchup as Ori couldnßt do anything aggressive anymore. It had been a really bad pick into Zac though, donßt know what he´d expect (maybe if Amazing hadn´t had such a rough day he could have done more to keep Zac at bay, but as is they really just picked themselves into that loss).
Ale non è male2 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=1yosQhxr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-14T18:33:07.780+0000)
- mh, i doubt that applies to Elements...but we´ll see
On an unrelated note, Elements won their 1st game of the split and they won it in the first week, so...XD
Earl Eulrich1 votesyea, i´d have rated splyce a lot higher...but well, Steve put in good work (and Fiora is still broken).
Ale non è male1 votesSplyce problem, imho, is that they can't win in the same way they did in CS Dig.Eu won the games in challenger on their carry performances back, and Sencux and Kobbe were top 2 in CS in their role and far above the other players below them...in LCS they are ACTUALLY average to below average (I say ACTUALLY because they have big potential and sonner or later they could end up being among the best in EU/West), so Splyce can't rely on winning a lot of games solely upon their performances Splyce need someone else to step up, not something else. Unfortunately Nisbeth is known to be bad, Wunderwear was unproven but perfromed bad and Trashy was average at best in last season NA LCS where the jungler level was really low and has performed kinda bad too so far There isn't much their coaching staff can actually do holding on on this squad if not hoping either that Sencux/Kobbe are yet enough to carry them vs poor teams (but this would probably start to happen towards the mid-end of the season, imho, as you got to give Sencux and Kobbe some expereince under their belt) or try to someway suddenly find a way to make Wunderwear evolve his game (which is ever more difficult to do), as I have no faith in Nisbeth or Trashy carring consistently them
Ale non è male2 votesAnd, after this FNC vs Vit game, we have the actual confirmation that bad Lissandra on sOAZ WAS actually the reason why Olaf snowballed and won the game for FNC vs OG Cabo ,with Shook help, was able to shut down Gamsu on a good pick for himself and FNC managed to beat that team comp that beated OG
Earl Eulrich1 votesFNC just made a rookie mistake going for the same comp twice - doesn´t work in a Bo5, doesn´t work in this setup aswell. Too easy to figure it out - olaf wouldn´t have been that much of a problem if they had their comeback intact via Zac engaging good fight while they were close enough to win it, just morg didn´t give them a single opening (+also shut down poppy in lane). they just gifted Vitality that win.
Linthe2 votesDay 2 implies that this game says more about week 1 OG than about week 1 FNC.
Earl Eulrich1 votesmh, i doubt that applies to Elements...but we´ll see
i actually don´t mind Soaz playing lissandra, he actually had been amazing on her S3 - they just need to open up the map more so he can create fights/picks. The main problem for OG in that match had been underestimating Fnatic...going tear+double RoA in such a snowbally early-game meta is just way to creedy, also picking Ori into Zac when you know you can´t go anywhere on the map after he reaches lvl 6 just really hurt them aswell (and they could have easily played liss mid to just shove LB in/provide easy midlane ganks).
yea, Fnatics I think will prove again that they are just an incredible organisation that doesn´t need to spent millions on player salaries to find talented players they can teach to form a world-clas unit
after watching a number of games in the LCK/LPL/LCS I think blue-ez is a trap. He basically loses lane on default and apart from a good midgame-spike really lacks dmg...so all he can do is snowball, and thanks to the tear he won´t do that early on. Really a bad pick atm.
Ale non è male1 votessoAZ had played like 4 games on Liss in entire S3, and except for the win for Samsung he wasn't impressive at all. In S4 literally sucked on lulu/rumble and similar The problem for OG is that if you let a Olaf snowball to oblivion is basically game over. The other lanes were going to be pretty much even with a scaling advantage for OG, but sOAZ and Amazing let Gamsu get so ahead that he could basically led the way for the rest of the teams
Yes, blue-ez is a trap, imho, but OG could have been successful at stall the game enough to get up on top on sheer scaling if it wasn't for top lane different impact on the game
Earl Eulrich1 votesthough the olaf had been fed around bot and midlane, not top - not saying Soaz couldn´t have done better, but a lot of that stemed from a weakish botlane and amazing not controlling the early game good enough aswell. Also you really saw how PoE lost control over mid completly after that one gank over the razor-wall at ~lvl 6 when he had to realize that he absolutly cannot go aggressive vs Febiven anymore or he´ll just be an easy pickup for Zac.
Ale non è male1 votesIn the post-game analysis the Eu studio commentators underlined how sOAZ fundamentally lost the teleport battle, and didn't make use of the time Gamsu was not in top lane They could have come back even not play that well early, but be behind + Olaf becoming a beast shut down every chance they could have had
Earl Eulrich2 votessure, but that could have been easily fixed by Amazing - once olaf started pushing just go there with Lee and punish him. pre lvl 6 there´s nothing Olaf could have done vs the liss-cc->lee dmg combo. Then Soaz would have had the advantage and could have won out on the TP. I don´t think it does OG any good to blame this soly on Soaz now, they played a bad pick&bans and then also had lackluster item-choices (getting scaling items while falling behind is not gonna fix that) aswell as suboptimal rotations. Fnatic just surprised them with a good early-game-plan and then never let go. It´s probably good for OG to start like this though, so they know they can take nothing for granted and need to work hard to improve strategy and synergy if they want to prove why they are seen as the #1 team in Europe right now.
foinhas1 voteshe did that, but olaf is just too broken atm
Ale non è male2 votesI agree that sOAZ alone shouldn't be blamed, as obviously he wasn't the only one playing bad...the 1 vs 2 Gamsu outplay was basically Amazing being goddamnit terrible in that situation, in a moment when killing Olaf could have still slowed his snowball enough to allow OG to came back later in the game... But, tbh, give to sOAZ Liss was a terrible mistake from the start, and it is more on coach than anything. They could have gone for a Shen pick, or just some early bully Ad to try to punish every try for Olaf to catch his axes early as even without the Orianna they had the better late game scaling if they could avoid the Olaf snowballing
Earl Eulrich1 votespicking Lee into Poppy also had been a real mistake - his q is so goddamn eassy to interrupt with her w, taking away most of his gank-potential and really hurting his lategame teamfighting. So most of the problems really stemed from picks&bans, which should be rather easy to fix (especially since OG drafted really well at worlds, so they should have someone who understands that stuff anyway).
Ale non è male1 votesLee was a "safe pick" because they didn't know what kind of comp FNC would have put on the rift He was not optimal vs poppy, for sure, but they could have had easily work around that The problem was the Lissandra top in sOAZ hands when it wasn't really needed at all since Liss mid could have been a pretty good option in the match-up vs leblanc and could have allowed to give a champ that is more comfortable for sOAZ on top
iamleburk1 votesThey fucked up picks imo. They should have flexed the trundle top and the lissandra mid (both even or favorable matchups). Then pick some peel support to deal with the leblanc. Or POE could have just picked Kassadin, they have the advantage early with the jungler, and kassadins late game would wreck Lucian and leblanc, take away Febis kill pressure in lane, and if you play it right he can contend with the olaf.
But FNC did a really smart thing. They saw the insane amount of kiting that was coming out of OG. OG was going for those "Poke and kite backwards comps" which they are generally good at, and were probably capitalizing on the low engage of FNC's poppy, but then FNC threw a wrench in that with strong ass engage with Zac and the unkitable olaf.
Actually if olaf didn't get so fed idk if FNC would have won this. Poppy would have been absolutely useless because OG didn't really have any engage, so she had nothing to peel for. Lucian or leblanc would have been easily singled out by the Lissandra (with Ori ult and lee sin for follow up). Actually lee sin could have set up a pick with an insec. So FNC's comp didn't really have a late game outside of Zac and Olaf, and if olaf got behind i dont think FNC would have won.
Ale non è male2 votes{quoted} Or POE could have just picked Kassadin, they have the advantage early with the jungler, and kassadins late game would wreck Lucian and leblanc, take away Febis kill pressure in lane, and if you play it right he can contend with the olaf.
FNC banned kassadin
iamleburk1 votesWell it wasn't the only option open to them. They could also have picked like a Morgana mid. POE got the counterpick mid lane and that Orianna pick was really bad imo. He did well on Orianna, but she was simply too weak against the Zac and the Olaf (especially once he had his MR items... then no one on OG could damage olaf).
Other picks that would have worked: (note that some of these are available via flex picks) - Karma, Janna, Soraka, Morgana, Jayce, Darius, Fiora, Renekton. the main thing imo is to flex the Lissandra mid and give yourself a favorable matchup top so Gamsu doesn't snowball, or give yourself a support with a speed up (Karma) or strong disengage (for the Zac). Obviously lulu or Kassadin would be optimal, but I see they were banned.
Ale non è male1 votesNah, it wasn't the Orianna pick that was bad in itself, the problem is that for that comp to actually pull it off a win you needed Lissandra to perform considerably well as was the only champ that could have either synergize either with Orianna wombo combo or with Ez poke style...but the core problem is that the guy that got Lissandra was sOAZ who was notoriously bad on Ap champs in S4, the last time they were popular
TL; DR sOAZ should play a Lissandra (or a Lulu or a Rumble, etc...) only when forced. In that situation OG could have gone for various picks but they didn't and that was the fundamental mistake that made them lose - in addition to Amazing bad play
P.S. The picks you are mentioning at support wouldn't have work, imho, Trundle match-up vs Olaf would have been likely really bad cause Gamsu had the range advantage so the effect would have probably been the same I agree that they should have flexed Liss to mid, but only to pick a real top lane champion to stop/limit Olaf, imho
iamleburk1 votesBut you're not understand that the enemy comp completely prevented Lissandra to perform well. It would have been a miracle for her to go even.
No Trundle does pretty good against Olaf, Trundle can steal his stats and match his damage.
Supports were for more disengage with their kite comp. Explain why you think they wouldn't have worked, because Olaf takes pretty long to actually get a kill, so heals and shields would have been very beneficial vs him. Esp seeing how well Morgana worked out today... (black shield fucks over leblanc as well as poppy/olaf)
By the way, notice how when a team uses Fiora and Morgana against literally the same thing, FNC gets rekt.
Ale non è male1 votesBut you're not understand that the enemy comp completely prevented Lissandra to perform well. It would have been a miracle for her to go even.
Nah, that's not true. Actually lissandra could wombo-combo with Orianna chaining CC over CC allowing Lee and Ez to pick off target. But it required a great offensive use of E + w/ulti, which sOAZ don't have imho as Liss is not the kind of champ that fits him
No Trundle does pretty good against Olaf, Trundle can steal his stats and match his damage.
Not in the context of that comp, though Trundle top was FAR more disfuntional than Liss was. Even if poE went for another choice at mid, you had a a Trundle-Lee-Liss-Ez-X comp that would have basically had no burst damage and no poke/wave clear potential as well, as Trundle and Lee had to go in the face of enemy and Liss7Ez could not capitalize on that The comp with orianna wasn't optimal but it wasn't too shabby...it just required great performance from liss that was the only champ that could balance the rest of the comp, but we are back again to the point that sOAZ is not good on those kind of champs
Supports were for more disengage with their kite comp. Explain why you think they wouldn't have worked, because Olaf takes pretty long to actually get a kill, so heals and shields would have been very beneficial vs him. Esp seeing how well Morgana worked out today... (black shield fucks over leblanc as well as poppy/olaf)
Trundle-Lee-Liss-Ez-Mogana is almost a suicide, especially given that FNC had more waveclear at that pont. Trundle want to fight, Lee want to pick off champs, Liss want to land skills in teamfight, Ez want to poke. All the champs in possible "carry" position want to do something different. At least Liss with Ori synergize some, with Morgana the only thing was hoping in her hitting binding followed up by ulti stun to do something, and imho, against leblanc/Zac/Lucian/poppy disengage was difficult to pull out What worked was a guy that didn't fall behind on a champ that can give troubles to Olaf and is comfortable on that champ. Not sOAZ on Liss
By the way, notice how when a team uses Fiora and Morgana against literally the same thing, FNC gets rekt.
It was not Fiora-Morgana, it was Fiora-Elise shutting down Gamsu's Olaf. Morgana countered Poppy, but also trundle is supposed to be a Poppy counter (I don't know why, tbh, but still), so it didn't change much in the overall scheme of things
iamleburk1 votesI disagree. FNC set up really well to counter the Soaz Lissandra, Olaf hard counters her and otherwise she would be in a lane swap and behind anyway.
Fine. Then why not Morgana mid? It's been a proven counter pick to Leblanc. Disengage is pretty easy when you're carry is black shielded.
Fiora/Elise shut it down but Fiora does pretty well against olaf considering her damage and her splitpushing. The matchup is about 50/50. When is suggested Morgana it was more to counter the leblanc and Zac than the olaf. As it did in that game. It also counters the poppy in lane, giving OG yet another advantage.
Morg/Liss doesn't have much synergy, true, but Morg Ezreal definitely does. So does morgana/trundle, because you can black shield the trundle as he runs rampant throughout the enemy team (also provides a tank for OG) And since the Ori/Lissandra synergy was kind of ruined by the olaf pick, thats the best they had to go for. So seige with morg/Ez or go in with Morg/Trundle/Lee sin. Also you then have 3 members of the team who can make picks (Liss/Morg/Lee sin) that will lock down the squishy leblanc or lucian.
I also want to point out how OG's comp had no tank in both of their matches, and they were against hard engage/burst both games.
Ale non è male1 votesI disagree. FNC set up really well to counter the Soaz Lissandra, Olaf hard counters her and otherwise she would be in a lane swap and behind anyway.
Fine. Then why not Morgana mid? It's been a proven counter pick to Leblanc. Disengage is pretty easy when you're carry is black shielded.
Olaf doesn't hard counter Liss, though. What Olaf can do is power farm vs liss and then go roaming other lane, but in that game that's not the way Olaf won. It is just that sOAZ isn't an excellent Liss and thus didn't utilize properly her skills to first contain Olaf and later to have an impact once Liss started getting items and less mana problems
Morgana mid still leave Liss on sOAZ top which was the core problem, so it doesn't solve anything. Flexing the Lissandra pick was the correct choice to do, but to do it you shouldn't have put Trundle top anyway but instead give sOAZ another top lane champion
Fiora/Elise shut it down but Fiora does pretty well against olaf considering her damage and her splitpushing. The matchup is about 50/50. When is suggested Morgana it was more to counter the leblanc and Zac than the olaf. As it did in that game. It also counters the poppy in lane, giving OG yet another advantage.
Morgana wasn't a key factor in stopping Olaf, but yeah, that's pretty much right. The problem is that wasn't only Morgana as the pick to solution to every problem
Morg/Liss doesn't have much synergy, true, but Morg Ezreal definitely does. So does morgana/trundle, because you can black shield the trundle as he runs rampant throughout the enemy team (also provides a tank for OG) And since the Ori/Lissandra synergy was kind of ruined by the olaf pick, thats the best they had to go for. So seige with morg/Ez or go in with Morg/Trundle/Lee sin. Also you then have 3 members of the team who can make picks (Liss/Morg/Lee sin) that will lock down the squishy leblanc or lucian.
Nah, I disagree completely with that Morg Ez have synergy as poke lane, but they were on the other side of the map. The problems vs FNC were in the top half of the map, since mithy was the best performer on OG that game OG could scale better, but had the problem of dragging the game to late game, which couldn't do with sOAZ on Liss top. Or with Trundle top and Morg support either with Flexing Liss mid, as they would have had a disfunctional core of carry champs The ori/Lissandra synergy wasn't ruined by Olaf pick, you are keep starting your reasoning by the assumption the comp was utterly bad. It wasn't excellent, but it was decent enough, the problem was the execution, especially on the top side of the map in top/jungle Liss/Morg making picks on Leblanc's febiven? Nah
I also want to point out how OG's comp had no tank in both of their matches, and they were against hard engage/burst both games.
Liss and Ryze should have acted as "tanks" in both of the games (in second game OG had also Braum, though). The problem is still the same, sOAZ is not suited for these Ap champs. He is a beast on AD champs AND tanks, not on the other top lane options That new guy they have gotten as coach as to quickly recognize that, two times sOAZ being putted on AP champs and have two unbalanced comps becasue of that and other relevant problems (comps that scales too late to be effective, little waveclear/siege potential)so far that turned out to be a disaster, they have to quickly figure things out