I'm RiotMEMEMEMEMEME AMA about Champion/VGU Development!

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEME·Dec 20, 2017·1 votes·23,859 views

Heya All!

There is a ton that goes into making a New Champ or VGU, some of it has been covered in AskRiot, or Dev blogs, but if there is something you have been itching to understand about the process I'll do my best to provide insight! Little history on MEMEMEMEME life at Riot for context:

I have been doing QA & Production work on reworks and new champs for almost 3 years.
Worked directly on Juggernauts Update, Marksmen Update, Mages Update, Assassins Update, Warwick VGU, and Urgot VGU.
Worked on some smaller projects like the Urfwick recall, and Cassio's tail update.
Bard is the best champion
RiotJag started a vendetta against me in internal playtests
Spend far too much of my free time reading about game dev -_-
Been playing League since Jarven Launched

Will be checking this thread inbetween League games :) I won't be able to answer questions about stuff in dev.

EDIT! Going to call it for the night, there are a few questions on here I will get back to tomorrow. Thank you all.

141 Comments

RiotRiot ZhanosDec 20, 20179 votes

Hey MEMEMEMEMEME big fan,

What was your most difficult project to tackle so far and how would you say it turned out in the end?

Which Champion would you like to have a full VGU the most right now?

Who is your favorite QA peer, and why is it me?

Cheers Bard

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 201714 votes

Assassins just because of the amount of moving parts, I'm very happy with Talon and Kat :)

Nocturne or Morde

Riot Wittrock

Raid Boss MordeDec 20, 20175 votes

Always Morde, never anyone else. Hit me up if you need someone to playtest that guy, I need an excuse to come back to the Riot HQ

Malicious MetalDec 20, 20175 votes

Preach.

Electro522Dec 20, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MEMEMEMEME,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=PuIkmwIR,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-12-20T02:45:20.758+0000)

Riot Wittrock

Ouch.

Malicious MetalDec 20, 20178 votes

Well, seeing that even after the Juggernaut update Morde's still on the VGU list. Waiting patiently with his little bug list that's nearly double the amount of champions currently available...

How would the Champ UP team go about working out a proper direction for Mordekaiser's rework? Would everything about his current kit be wiped and them be built from the ground up or are there some aspects about the ol' Metal Man you guys over there at Riot would definitely consider core to him as a champion?

Also, on a scale from one to 11, how Metal would Pentakill Mordekaiser be? https://78.media.tumblr.com/5bc45dc956d4e904831651793638af85/tumblr_ou7bm1Cai91w9kfmno6_540.gif

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 201712 votes

I will campaign for a Morde VGU as long as I am at Riot, but alas I do not know when that will be. I always tell people that when ever it happens, if I am no longer on Champions team, I will do work in my free time for my man Morde.

20 I have much investment in making Pentakill Mordekaiser as metal as possible, if it is possible to make him more Metal than he actually is.

Malicious MetalDec 20, 20174 votes

Oh, on the topic of skins for VGU'd champions.

Where exactly do you guys draw the line on what you'll be able to do with a skin? Urgot's Crab skin is a mere 520 skin but he has new effects, a bloody voice filter and different sounds for his animations as well.

Would you guys ever consider upping a skin's price so you won't limit yourselves from really pushing the skin's theme to the max?

NecrozardDec 20, 20171 votes

Upvote for all of you

The only way for Mordekaiser to get new/updated skins As well as new particles, It's a VGU

(Until that, no Robotic/Science-Fiction Mordekaiser skin can be expected) [zombie-nunu-bummed]

Malicious MetalDec 20, 20176 votes

Dreaded Space Conqueror Mordekaiser skin when?! http://media.blizzard.com/heroes/images/media/wallpaper/space-lord-leoric_twitter.jpg

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

I can't speak to the pricing of stuff over all, but I can for Crabgot.

Couple of things happened there.

The skin was made during a different time with different standards with a price point that no longer exists.
We picked a concept that would require more work than we initially thought it would so we all got into a room and had a discussion. Do we put in the extra work to make this skin make sense? Or do we scrap it an make something that requires much less resources.

CarnicoreDec 20, 20172 votes

My understanding is that you guys do "exploration" on reworks all the time, but the ones that go into full production are those that are the most promising.

What's been the biggest challenge when approaching Mordekaiser? I would imagine he's a high priority for a rework, but you guys probably just haven't figured out where you want to go with him.

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

Exploration is something we do we a targeted number of champions, if we expanded to every champ that needs work we would get nothing done. He's def high priority.

Illâoi Evê SiônDec 20, 20176 votes

Have there ever been cases where two people on a team really bumped heads over a certain topic? Like fighting over the champion's appearance or the particulars of a specific spell or something?

If so, how was it resolved?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20176 votes

This happens quite frequently in micro/macro ways, personally I had one of these moments working on Urgot, and it was an eye opener for me. During ideation we got a ton of interesting concepts and I latched onto one really quickly, I kept giving feedback around why I liked it, whenever we deviated from that concept I would bring it up and start a conversation around it. Eventually The Bravo Ray took over concept work on him, and since we had a reputation already from working on Warwick I started picking his brain on the resistance to my ideas. He explained to me the difference in making something for players, and making something for myself which became a huge growth point. The core of the idea being, sometimes as Devs we can let our own personal bias take over, and fight to make the thing we want, but the thing we want is not the thing League of Legends needs.

Back to the meat of your question often resolutions can happen in many different ways:

People talk it out and explain the problem they are having, sometimes the problem isn't really an issue and everything is resolved by the conversation. Sometimes the problem just isn't understood by the other individual, and a conversation provides the context they need to get it.
Talking through craft, what I mean by that is if you have an issue with VFX, Texture, Code, ect use the language of your craft to explain what your feedback/issue is. Character Artists, VFX, Concept, ect will often do paint overs of WIP to convey issues they are having, this is often far more effective than just using words.
Talking to you guys! There are times where the pod is 50/50 on an issue but it isn't super clear what the true problem is. So we conduct player labs every 4-7 weeks of development on a champ to validate our concerns. One the player lab happens we often know what needs to be done from there, so we all work on making it happen.

I know I went on a tangent a bit, lemme know if that answered your question!

CarnicoreDec 20, 20171 votes

Can I ask what mechanic you were pushing that didn't make it into the final Urgot design?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20173 votes

Was concept art, nothing to do with the game design.

KelgDec 20, 20175 votes

Will we see Mordekaiser 's VGU soon? His bugs are becoming sentient...

[sg-janna]

Malicious MetalDec 20, 20173 votes

If this continues on every champion will be Mordekaiser.

Not that I'm complaining :^)

MonotachiDec 20, 20174 votes

On the topic of Akali, although her update was considered smaller scope than the Big-4 (Kat, Talon, Rengar, Leblanc) - why did her assassin update changes altered her playstyle drastically? Nowadays, she is mainly played top lane more as an AP fighter that builds tanky rather than mid lane where she was more of a traditional assassin. I guess, alot of mains are still bitter about how the changes played out especially around her shroud. Akali isn't any more fun to play against because her shroud lasts long.

In regards to Akali, what was the thought process of allowing her stealth to be made much more reliable in-expense for the rest of her kit? I feel like it would of been best use of dev time and minimal disruption, if her kit stayed the same pre-6.22, but made shroud weaker to compensate for the removal of pinks. That way, she still retains her old playstyle while having a somewhat more reliable shroud but nowhere near what it is right now.

PS: Is Akali anywhere near getting a VGU within the next year or two?

Akali Best WaifuDec 20, 20174 votes

Hi Riot MEMEMEMEME!

My question is about Akalis VGU. Apparently shes been really high on the VGU list for some years now and its something ive personally been dieing to see happen as model and kit wise she hasnt aged well at all with the game and weve been promised it for some time now. I feel like shes been taken away from her core identity of a hypercarry mid lane assassin and slowly been placed into this niche toplane fighter role which while its alright its not at all why alot of us mains fell in love with the champion. Obviously i dont expect any details of when its coming or anything of the sort but im curious as to what your personal thoughts are on her in terms of needing a VGU.

Secondly a while back someone posed a question about her to Daniel Z. Klein about what he would do to rework her if he was to do it and his response was that he would first start from scratch and come up with the idea first of what gives her power and where does she draw it from. Is that something to team goes through for all reworks/vgus when it comes to lore, abilities, etc etc to flesh out designs?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20175 votes

Personally I felt that Akali just hasn't aged well with all the new stuff in League, given the new champs, item changes, runes, ect that have happened over the years she has had to adapt in the top lane.

Yup we do that for all VGUs until we find what is core, then double down on it.

ResterDec 20, 20173 votes

So non-VGU/Development related question: Why MEMEMEMEME and where did that name idea come from?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA-YkYv0n-U

Back in Season 1 - 3 I had dreams of going pro and having Phreak yell my name during a big play.

FloupiDec 20, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Miku Hime samaDec 21, 20172 votes

Ironically, every problem you listed arose as direct results of either her first and/or second reworks. WHEN (not if) Sona finally gets her VGU, Rito needs to go back and look at her original kit as the starting point for their inspiration of that VGU. Otherwise, we'll just be here once again, another 3 years from now, still complaining about the same issues that we have been since the first rework.

After all, it was the first rework that eliminated Sona's competitive viability. The second rework, rather than addressing the problems created in the first, focused on emphasizing those problems even further.

LostFr0stDec 20, 20172 votes

If a champion was in dire need of a rework due to identity issues, but the playerbase was hostile and split on what their identity should be, would Riot delay the VGU even if they found a great direction for the Champion's kit?

tldr: how much/does playerbase sensitivity affect the champ VGU selection process?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

Reav did a really good write up on the VGU process and would give that a read first. - https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/11/dev-on-the-champion-rework-pipeline/

Something to keep in mind is that VGU's take a ton of time, so we try to do a a large amount of exploration for the identity, visuals, and design long before we actually staff up project. That said we will delay putting people on a project if we don't feel the one of those three is not hitting the mark, so that we do not waste dev work. To answer your TLDR: a fair amount, if you look over a good chunk of the VGUs done, many of them are some of the least play/outdated champs.

Archlord AatroxDec 20, 20172 votes

In your honest and most professional opinion, which VGU do you think was the most impactful/influential in the history of League of Legends so far? Who was the most influential in terms of kit ideation and thematic exploration, champion role, or had the most impact on the meta? For example, I think Sion was the most well done VGU in terms of artistic design and spell kit, as Riot really pushed the envelope back then on the VGU process. Like, he went from a pizza-feet zombie with a Arnold Schwarzenegger-accent to a reanimated juggernaut with a thirst for destruction. In my honest opinion, he set the bar for future VGU's to come.

Also, any candidates you want to see receive a VGU in the near future? Praying Pantheon and Nunu get a makeover soon.

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20177 votes

They all have special impacts, but I'll give my thoughts on a few :)

Sion - He taught us a ton about how far we can push a Champion in terms of a VGU, what that pipeline looks like, and that we are cowards.

Poppy/Ryze - What it means to VGU a champion with that many skins, you have to keep in mind that we do all the skins for VGU on top of the base champ/kit.

Not a VGU but Darius Update in the Juggernauts patch - He took the pentakill fantasy/ riding the line of death to the next level.

Personally I want to see a Nocturne VGU I love everything about that Champ, then again I played him a ton on launch for the freelo.

EphriellDec 20, 20172 votes

Think Veigar is gonna get a Visual update anytime soon? His kit is fine since it just got updated mid 2016, but the models for his base and skins (excluding final boss and omega squad) are super out-dated. Same could be said for panth and maybe even gragas(his are a little better though)

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

As much as I would like to VU all Champs in positions like Veigar, unfortunately we can't :( One day I hope.

FlemmanDec 20, 20171 votes

As you have work on the juggernaut update, what are your thought about skarner shrine? What where the goal with them and did they achieve it?

If you VGU him one day, would you like to keep them in it's gameplay while making them less restrictive (making him able to move them for exemple for more decision making as the skarner player) or would you just scrap them and give him a new passive

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20175 votes

Honestly I joined team formerly know as Chamion Update half way through Juggernauts, I don't remember the specifics about why we did Skarmer shrines. I'll have to ask around about that.

If we were to VGU him one day I would like to approach it with two things foremost:

Spammable ability of some sort
Lockdown and pull ability

Everything beyond that I think can be explored, granted this is my opinion on the design side, and I'll trust those guys to make those choices if the time comes.

Better JunglerDec 20, 20171 votes

[deleted]

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20172 votes

There are a couple different ways to look at it, replace less engaging with degenerative gameplay and that is what we would want to target first IE Urgot. Then there is the was once super popular a long time again, but their gameplay just didn't age well and we need to modernize them IE Warwick. In terms of keeping lowskill cap for newer/less experience players that is def something we want to keep around.
Afaik we are not looking at Voli, that can always change, and personally I think he should get a VGU one day. Question for you, do you think in 3 - 4 years Voli will keep up with the rest of the League roster?

Better JunglerDec 20, 20174 votes

OF COURSE you reply right when I decide to clean up my post;P

Thank you for the insight, it really seems like quite the dilemma to match player experience, skill cap, and simplicity of champ kits... nightmare.
As a Volibear main, I don't think he fits in with leagues roster NOW. he has his moments every few patches, but the ranged champions are slowly taking over League. Items like frozen guantlet and rylais crystal scepter, alongside movement speed on certain ranged items give them a huge advantage. There are steps in the right direction with Phage builds and some of the MS runes, but you sacrifice alot of potential to pick up those builds. Try catching Frozen gauntlet Ezreal as volibear:P Its the most infuriating thing you can imagine.

I have a passion for this champion, and would love to see him in LCS one day. I dont want that at the cost of his personality and overall feel of his kit.

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

IMO there are feel parts of his kit that we would want to keep intact, off the top of my head, running down a bro, chomping, and lighting. When I see Voli I see some really cool thematics that if done by modern standards would be amazing.

Rolling GirlDec 20, 20171 votes

As we all know, there's no aspect of a champion, no matter how niche, that at least one person is attached to. Although I definitely see why reworks for Yorick and Urgot, for example, were so needed, and their newer iterations have gone on to be some of my most played champions (Urgot is actually my number one played Champ this year!), I'd be lying if I said there weren't parts of their old designs I didn't still miss. (RIP Urgot monocle) How do you guys choose what parts of a champion's identity are worth keeping and what parts just don't work any more?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20173 votes

Talking to you guys via boards, social media, surveys, ect, discussions with the pod, and trial & error. At a certain point once a direction is decided you need to go all in to make it the best thing possible for what was decided, or else you risk a watered down final product.

Rolling GirlDec 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MEMEMEMEME,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=PuIkmwIR,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2017-12-20T02:36:42.289+0000)

Talking to you guys via boards, social media, surveys, ect, discussions with the pod, and trial & error. At a certain point once a direction is decided you need to go all in to make it the best thing possible for what was decided, or else you risk a watered down final product.

That's interesting, thank you for the insight! Really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions like this, have a good night!

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20172 votes

You too!

GarentheonDec 20, 20171 votes

Couple things:

Am I wrong to be thinking that the next Champion Roadmap will announce 2 new VGUs in production? Because, moving on to another VGU you would likely have the guys who did Swain and the guys who did Zoe (heard their next project is a VGU)
I know it requires a lot more animation work but why don't you, when you VGU a champ, give a recall to all their skins that are 975 and above? Champ doesn't feel complete to me when they're left still not completely up to the game/skin standard you guys set. I feel it is in the same fashion as when you made the great decision to update all of the champ's splash arts with every VGU.
Suggestion: For Pantheon's VGU (Whom I eagerly await everyday) You have his helmet completely cover, like Saber of Red in Fate: Apocrypha, and have a toggle for it to disassemble. I think the helmet style and that little function would be completely unique to Pantheon and the toggle off can give the players a little taste of Atreus.

Link below showing an example of what I mean

Hope it works

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/2/21/CBAActivation.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20171218041254

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/3/3a/Secret_of_Pedigree_Apocrypha.gif/revision/latest?cb=20170710110219

Thank you for making this thread. I got so excited. VGUs are 10000% my favorite thing about this game (and this game has a lot to love)

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

Reav will be posting the new Roadmap sometime next year, I am not sure what is on it yet.
Looking over the pricing list and from what I understand 975 skins do not always get a recall, it is often a 1 off thing. Given that for skins 1350 and up we give them recalls. You are right though about animation time, a recall is about a week of an animators time, then you may need VFX, and audio support for it. I know a week doesn't sound all that long, but when you have the whole Champion to think about, and any minor work the skins may need to look functional (Just because it doesn't have unique animations doesn't mean that it has zero animation work)

Baron Von BanginDec 20, 20171 votes

Why is it when you guys give champions a VGU you often decide to leave out their most iconic lines? Who is that for? It seems to me like the cost to payoff ratio should be pretty large given the size of scripts now. Like, the cost of putting some of the most favorite lines of a champion (e.g. "I takes a lot of effort to move like this in heels." "Do you feel a chill?" "You only need to click one... FOOL!") would be small and the payoff would be extremely fan pleasing.

Why leave these lines out?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

There was a time were we tried to give them new lines that paid the old ones respect, now as far as I know we still keep those iconic lines where they make sense. IE on Urgot Existence is is torment is still around, plus a few of his other ones.

Linna ExcelDec 20, 20171 votes

RiotMEMEMEMEMEME, I've been feeling for awhile now that riot's champion reworks have been suffering because riot isn't making enough new champs and is forcing ideas that really belong on a completely new champ and shoving them into reworks. Any thoughts about this?

pend far too much of my free time reading about game dev -_-

Any favorite sources on this subject?

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20174 votes

We do not shove new champion kits onto reworks, when we go into exploration there are going for the rework, and we iterate towards those. A VGU/New Champs kit takes anywhere from 1-3 months to lock down and even then tweaks happen once production assets start going in.

As for the game dev question

Right now I am reading the Splunky book, and Agile Samurai.

Linna ExcelDec 20, 20172 votes

Maybe I phrased that poorly but okay. It just feels like too many rework ideas belong on something new instead of on something old. So I guess it's more like you guys iterate to the point you've left the champ you were trying to rework but no one is able to come in and say "this rework is getting to the point where the champion isn't Billy anymore".

I mean some like Warwick seemed to have gone over well but others feel like effective deletes instead of a proper rework.

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEDec 20, 20173 votes

Ah some Champs greater kit changes than something along the lines of Warwick, but we still try to keep certain themes going. Urgot still has a movement displace into reposition and lock onto target ability that has massive damage implications. Galio still has a ranged wave clear ability, with mr reduction, and an aoe taunt. Those are just some of the ones that came to mind off the top of my head.