[FOLLOWUP] Tahm Kench

RiotZenonTheStoic·Dec 4, 2015·1 votes·61,346 views

Following on from the Mordekaiser Update Follow-Up, here's our internal design review for Tahm Kench. Please see Statikk's post on Mordekaiser for more context on what these design reviews are.

I'll paste the actual review in this first post, but I'll also have a much more in-depth and verbose explainer posted as the first comment on this thread. I hope you like words, cause I got a lot of em.

I will leave this thread open until Monday.

Original Goals:

Make a tank who is not defined by AOE CC or single target pickoff
Offer a powerful and cool support function through ally devour
Enable strategic map mobility for two people
Can be played in multiple positions: both solo and support

**What's working: **

Ally devour is a big, cool moment for Tahm and his team
Tahm is picked frequently as a support, mostly for devour
Tahm is played successfully in top, support, and jungle

Problems:

High level of frustration playing against:
MS away from enemy means ally devour is never the wrong move
Tough skin means killing Tahm feels like not an option either
Ult is mostly used solo, particularly outside of competitive play
High damage output means Tahm often chases down and kills people where it feels inappropriate for a support to do so

Possible next steps:

Ally W no longer has MS away from enemy (going live in 5.24)
Encourage cooperative use of R: minimum wait time but quicker arrival
Reassess E tankiness: reduce shield duration and/or grey health duration
Investigate why some champions cannot opt out of fighting Tahm (more on this below)

312 Comments

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 4, 201535 votes

Greetings fellow riverboat captains!

Tahm Kench has been swimming up and down Summoner’s Rift for a few months now. At this stage, we typically do a internal follow-up where we sit down and talk about what did and what didn’t work, guided by our original pre-release goals. We’re making that player-facing. Before we dive in (heh), let me just say we’re very much aware that a lot of you feel Tahm is very frustrating to play against. We hear you and none of the things I’m about to say should take away from the validity of what you’re feeling. We may disagree on the why and the what to do about it, but your feelings are valid and we’ve heard you.

Alright, enough touchy-feely stuff. Let’s talk video games.

When we set out to make Tahm Kench, we wanted to make a “tank’s tank”; someone who can become ridiculously hard to kill while having a strongly felt effect on the game (internally we call these “outputs”: how does the game change for everyone else because Tahm is in it?) We also decided in the very beginning of production that his outputs should fall outside the usual tank outputs of “AOE CC an entire teamfight” or “lock down / pull in one guy and enable your team to kill them”.

Halfway through development we pivoted a little from wanting Tahm to be exclusively a gold-taking solo lane tank to embracing his support identity, but we liked the thought that we could deliver a champion who succeeds in different roles. We hadn’t made one of those in a while (Bard, Rek’Sai, Kalista, and Azir are all very strongly role-bound, and Gnar’s jungling is at best a super niche build) and we thought it’d be neat to enable player experimentation.

Some things we obviously nailed: Tahm is tanky as all get-out and cannot be ignored. His output is a uniquely powerful ally saving move; not only is it strong, it is also super cool. Saving that low health squishy with a flash W creates a strong “holy shit Tahm, you just saved my life” moment for your ally.

Here’s what didn’t work out: we expected that ally devour would be somewhat frustrating for the enemy, but we failed to predict just how bad it would be. We’ve clearly heard your feedback that the champion is frustrating to play against, but we also have other data points to back this up. When supports enter the top 3 of most banned champions, something tends to be off. Soraka’s recent rise in bans due to our changes to Grievous Wounds and the addition of the Windspeaker’s Blessing mastery is one good example of this. Clearly enough of you are so frustrated playing against Tahm that you’re happy to spend one of your three bans on him.

So let’s talk about this. We have always known that uniquely strong safety moves will create frustration. Some amount of frustration is absolutely a necessary part of the game. Frustration at your plans not working out or the enemy outplaying you is an essential low moment in a PvP game like League, which buys us the high moments when things do work out. So frustration per se is not a bad thing. It’s when a moment feels unfair or like there was nothing else you could have done that we have a problem.

Part of this was a last minute decision to give Tahm MS away from the enemy with an ally in his stomach. This came out of lane testing, particularly when Tahm and his ally lost their lane. It felt like there was absolutely nothing Tahm could bring to the table once the lane started to go against him. Particularly when the enemy kept ganking to drive the advantage home, Devour never seemed to help. We may have overreacted to feedback here.

Devour should feel like a sacrificial move. The Tahm player should feel like he saved an important ally’s life at the cost of his own or of at least a good chunk of his health. The 20% movement speed away from enemies means that not only does Tahm save a friend, he thereby also buys himself more safety. Stripping this mechanic was a no brainer; expect to see this change for 5.24.

There are two more contributing factors to the feeling of frustration I want to talk about real quick. One is that he just seems unkillable, and the other is that he outputs a buttload of damage.

Tahm’s E is a necessary tool for a tank champion, but the exact tuning may be off. The active should be the button that allows him to wade into the thick of things and pick up an ally in need, and the passive should make it so he doesn’t just straight-up lose to any amount of poke. Our current feeling is that both the amount of time over which the shield decays might be too long (turning the shield from an anti-burst tool to a “lol I got two health bars” tool over the duration of a typical teamfight) and the delay before grey health turns back into health might be too long, making it too easy for Tahm to get to full shield. We’ve not made up our minds about this yet, but it’s on our radar.

Finally, damage. Tahm has the potential to do an exceptional amount of damage for a tank. Abyssal Voyage’s passive is tuned to be very strong. On any champion who has the tools to get to you and stick to you easily this would almost certainly be problematic. But we cannot look at a mechanic in a vacuum (the poor guy would suffocate). Against most of our roster, Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them. Nearly every ADC should be able to kite him, anyone with a mobility tool should be able to opt out of fighting him, and so on. We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are, it is okay for him to have the damage he does.

There are edge cases that may need looking at here. For one, if you go into a 2v2 trade that turns into a 1v1 and you’re now in melee range of a Tahm who already has 3 stacks on you, you will likely not be able to get away from him without a kiting / mobility tool. Yes, there are certain champions that don’t have any of these tools and they just never can 1v1 Tahm, which feels bad against a support. So the TL;DR on his damage is: yes it’s very high, but the problem is that certain champs can’t opt out of fighting him when they should be able to. If anything, we’d look at that.

We have some thoughts about the cooperative use of Tahm’s ultimate as well, but I’ve been going on for too long already. How do you feel about Tahm’s current state? Do you disagree strongly with any of the above?

OH NO ITS LU BUDec 4, 20159 votes

In case you miss my tweet: Have you guys thought about changing the cooldown time or travel time specifically when Tahm's carrying an ally? That way if you're solo traveling you're not getting the full use of your ult and making your team wait longer to make big plays.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20153 votes

With abilities where we want both teams to play around arrival, it's hugely detrimental to introduce any amount of variance into the timings. It's hard enough to learn the timing of a spell that doesn't change depending on context. Much harder with one that does.

MerxamersDec 4, 20158 votes

I think it's silly that a support routinely gets more kills than the ADC. The damage needs to be tuned down, or the cooldown on the slowing tongue lash needs to be reduced so people who want to run away will be able to.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 201513 votes

I like that you made a statement that's easily falsifiable! "Support Tahm routinely gets more kills than the ADC". That's data we can drill down into!

Having done that, you're wrong. He doesn't. Not even close.

Tahm averages 2.6 kills per game, rank 12 out of 27 for support champions: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.kills&order=descend

The lowest average kills per game among ADCs go to Sivir, at 5.9. That's more than double of what Tahm averages: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.kills&order=descend

LuciferDec 7, 20154 votes

I wonder where his damage dealt to champions sits on that list? It's not always the finishing blow that matters. In fact, as a support, you probably don't /want/ the finishing blow if your carry can take it.

It also makes me wonder if he's doing more damage than appropriate with a full tank build, comparably.

Edit: Went and looked, his damage dealt and damage taken, together, make him one of the best supports in the game (barring outliers like Brand, which are obscenely overpowered at the moment) 11101 (dealt, Rank 14 of 27. *note, most supports beating him are dedicated damage dealers like Brand / Annie)

27968 (taken, Rank 1 of 27. Literally the best support in this regard)

It's also pretty interesting his healing is on par with Bard. (Tahm is ranked 6 of 27). Keep in mind, he's doing all this while having below average gold income among the supports.

SpecterVonBarenDec 7, 20153 votes

If it's on par with Bard then that's pretty bad considering how weak Bard's heal is without being charged.

LuciferDec 7, 20152 votes

Actually, Bard is 10/27 for healing. Tahm is 6/27. He's only really beaten out by champions with built in, spam heals with their kit like Soraka, Sona, Taric, Alistar, Nami etc. Notice that Tahm seems very out of place in that list.

SpecterVonBarenDec 7, 20153 votes

That's still not very good considering that places them in the lower third of the pack, also keep in mind that except for Relic Shield, all of Tahm's healing is for himself.

LuciferDec 7, 20151 votes

How does being 6/27 place him in the back of the pack?

SpecterVonBarenDec 7, 20154 votes

1.Soraka (What a surprise) 2.Taric 3.Nami 4.Alistar 5.Sona 6.Tahm 10.Bard

Literally every single support that has an ally healing spell as a basic ability outranks him, except for Bard. This should not be alarming or surprising given his E. He's not out of place being that high up.

aperson1Dec 4, 201552 votes

Tongue Lash's slow scales up pretty crazily, from 30% to 70%. For a guy whose contribution isn't supposed to be catching people out, Tongue Lash is a pretty good fight starter. I find against more immobile carries (Ashe, Varus, Jinx) once my Q gets to a certain rank I can basically hit them from brush, walk up and auto to land the other 2 stacks for a devour and easy kill/flash. IIRC on the PBE before his release, his Q slow was significantly lower, then got buffed up. If you're worried that some champs are unable to escape him, you should probably look at his Q again.

ICantNameMeDec 5, 201512 votes

I completely agree that 70% slow for 2s is just too strong on a champion with as much damage as Tahm. If he lands a Q in a 1v1 scenario, it pretty much guarantees him 2 more autos + devour because of how potent the slow is.

The only other champions in the game with such strong skillshot slows are:

Bard Q slows for 60% for 1-1.8s
Sion E slows for 40-60% for 2.5s
Rumble E slows for 22.5-52.5% for 3s (45-105% if you hit both on the same target)
Kassadin E slows for 50-90% for only 1s
Lulu's Q slows for 80% but decays over 1-2s
Braum Q slows for 70% and decays over 2s
Vel'Koz Q slows for 70% for 1-2s but decays over the duration

If they made Tahm's Q slow decay I wouldn't even mind the ability, but right now it's just too overbearing imo.

lightdragoon88Dec 5, 20159 votes

Not to mention with some CDR, his Q is up just as the slow ends. So it the old Skarner effect, permaslow only now worst with Tahm because it is Perma-stun+Deveour.

WolvesTMDec 5, 20155 votes

I think this cooldowns are the biggest problem. If they got nerfed a bit, 5+ seconds per level, he probably wouldnt be nearly as toxic.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20158 votes

You're right that the slow of Tongue Lash is very, very strong at rank 5. 2s at 70% is nothing to scoff at. This would probably be one of the first things to look at if we do decide to attack his stickiness. That said, here's the reason why he has such a strong offensive skill on his kit: without a strong offensive option at a range, Tahm's optimal play would be to always just sit next to his ADC and wait for trouble so he can instantly eat them. That still is the best play most of the time, but not all of the time. This push and pull on the player is essential to creating a set of meaningful decisions. It's not entirely clear to Tahm if he should just sit on his Kog'Maw or try to fish for a Tongue Lash into devour on the enemy frontline when the enemy may not be ready to fight.

In lane you're right that there's a lot of power to it, and again if this is something we feel we need to address, the slow amount is an easy thing to adjust. However, all three ADCs you mentioned should have ways of keeping you at a distance. Jinx can Zap / Chomper you, Ashe can slow you in a hundred ways, Varus can use his slow zone. Theoretically, Tongue Lash should be tuned such that you can almost, but not quite, get to an enemy who's paying attention to you.

Phoenix Kotori Dec 6, 20155 votes

Why not just put a decay on the slow like many other massive slows in the game have?

ShínyDec 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Here’s what didn’t work out: we expected that ally devour would be somewhat frustrating for the enemy, but we failed to predict just how bad it would be. We’ve clearly heard your feedback that the champion is frustrating to play against, but we also have other data points to back this up. When supports enter the top 3 of most banned champions, something tends to be off. Soraka’s recent rise in bans due to our changes to Grievous Wounds and the addition of the Windspeaker’s Blessing mastery is one good example of this. Clearly enough of you are so frustrated playing against Tahm that you’re happy to spend one of your three bans on him.

Quick question, how do you know the ban is directed for banning him out as a support? Tahm is also played top quite a lot (maybe I'm a little biased as I play it a lot) , could his dual lane nature be affecting his ban rate significantly?

Sailor MintDec 4, 201513 votes

Rank 5 Tongue Lash is basically a root, that can be chained into a stun then chained into devour. Meeting Tham in a dark alley shouldn't trigger Season 2 Skarner PTSD.

Devour should work the same as Unbreakable. Any projectiles currently intended for the friendly devoured target should affect Tham. Give the enemy team more options and give him a justification for all that tankiness.

Against most of our roster, Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them. Nearly every ADC should be able to kite him, anyone with a mobility tool should be able to opt out of fighting him, and so on. We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are, it is okay for him to have the damage he does.

As a mostly defensive support, I don't understand why he needs that much damage for free. Champions like Mundo and Trundle play a similar "buffer" tank role yet they are either squishier, deal less damage or need to actually itemize damage to deal damage. I don't think Tham Kench being able to stick to targets without help is necessary, nor do I think that a champion played in a mostly defensive role needs to deal that much damage. Right now it feels like he gets both. Multiple sources of easily chainable crowd control and very high damage output without damage items.

Have you toyed with the idea of pushing his damage even more into Devour? Something along the lines of it dealing ultimate level damage, but with him spitting the target early if he took too much damage?

GarrotteDec 4, 201524 votes

I really disagree on your methodology on how you're viewing Tahm's support laning phase. What I feel is oppressive about playing against him is that he isn't forced into a dichotomy between leveling two different abilities. Practically every other support has to sacrifice the power of one ability for another. Tahm, however, isn't gated by ranks into his W and E. There is not a significant case where Tahm gets pressured into putting additional points into E or W instead of Q. This gives Tahm the feeling of having high sticking power, because he is never forced into an alternative.

I'd rather see the base values of W or E shrunk, but increase the scaling per level as a method of allowing opposing laners to force Tahm into needing an extra point into W's duration or E's regeneration in order to survive the laning phase.

BiffoloDec 5, 201510 votes

So you want them to do something similar to morg where they hit say his e at early ranks, so that if a lane is going poorly he wants to level that instead of his aggressive spell. That actually seems like a pretty solid idea, but we need to see where he shakes out after these changes.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20157 votes

That's a good point! I feel there's a lot that's good about a clear rank-up path (I really like it when my champs tell you "90% of the time, you can just max Q first and you'll be alright"), but his may be too straightforward. W gains a lot from rankups, but not a lot that you could be forced to need, as you point out. The E health restore also grows meaningfully with level, but chances are you don't need to use it quite as much in lane.

Again, these observations are great and useful if we do decide that it is his sticking power that's a problem. A Tahm with absolutely no offensive threat onto the enemy will become a devour bot, sitting near his most important ally, finger hovering over the W button. That doesn't sound super exciting to me.

When we look at how much damage Tahm can do and how easily he can stick on people, we should also not forget that the enemy has tools. Enemy supports should generally bring a toolset that stops Tahm from just running up to the ADC even after he lands a Q; ADC tend to have soft self-peeling abilities (even immobile ADCs like Kog'Maw or Jinx have tools like Void Ooze or Zap! / Flame Chompers! They're not the category of enemy I worry about. If they die to Tahm it's often because they allowed him to walk up, thinking they deserve to just win by outdamaging him. I'm okay with Tahm saying "nope" to that line of thinking.

I base these observations both on my own games in Silver ELO and on watching a lot of high Masters/Challenger games with Tahm in them. When people die to Tahm at my level it is because they pretended like he wasn't a factor; when they die to Tahm in high ELO games in lane it's mostly because what had looked like a favourable 2v2 turned against them and Tahm cleaned up after. If his stickiness+damage was such a problem, I'd expect him to index much higher on kills and damage dealt to champions. Looking at champion.gg's data (http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend) I find that support Tahm's kills and damage done to champions are very similar to Bard (slightly higher on kills, slightly lower on damage to champions). This is consistent with the damage profile I was aiming at and, on top of pattern level analysis and anecdotal observational data suggests strongly that his damage profile is not what makes him so frustrating.

hòeDec 4, 20153 votes

As far as solo lane tahm kench goes, I find it extremely frustrating that if he wants to fight you, you either have to fight him, and do less damage than him and then die, or try to get away, and lose a tonne of health for trying, without touching him.

You know it's bad when you can't take a single minion without losing half your health.

JawAndDoughDec 4, 201510 votes

I'm just curious why devour's priority isn't being discussed? It should be 3 stack, ally, then minions, but currently there is no priority. If shits all mixed up and crazy, you might devour a minion or your ally instead of the person with 3 stacks. If you are going to nerf devour, might as well give some quality of life instead of kicking it down the road.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20159 votes

That's a little off topic for this thread. I'm trying to focus on why Tahm is perceived as frustrating to play against and what to do about it.

In terms of devour priorities, it's currently champion > minion/monster, but nothing else. There's a chance we may want to prioritize three-stacked enemies over allies, but every time I have the game guess your intention I'm running into a huge risk of getting it wrong, and when the game "guesses wrong" for you, it feels a million times worse than you just clicking wrong.

(It's a little difficult to construct an example of why prioritizing three-stack enemies over allies can be bad, but bear with me here. Teamfight. You've been scrapping with their Irelia, as you do, when suddenly your ADC missteps. Irelia jumps on them and stuns them, attracting the attention of the rest of Irelia's team. You have your mouse over your ADC and try to eat them to keep them safe, but since we established the rule that three-stack enemies will be prioritized, you eat Irelia instead and the enemy ADC kills your ADC. Sad face.)

ItemsGuyDec 4, 20155 votes

As far as ally W goes, it always felt like a sacrifice due to its dual nature--being forced to use it on an ally that got bursted down means that all enemies in the vicinity can rest easy knowing that Tahm is no longer capable of taking them out of the fight for a few seconds or dealing that considerable % max health damage. I'm generally of the opinion that mobility should always be what gets shaved off of Tahm when he gets too big for his britches (or two coats, in this case), and while losing the getaway movespeed is certainly going to hurt, it may be appropriate to allow him to keep his durability and threat generation--on top of making its aggressive movespeed that much more attractive for getting your friendly Olaf or Darius into the fight.

I do worry, though, that the loss of getaway speed may end up turning an ally W into a death wish for both parties, since Tahm is already pretty slow and landing CC on him is essentially a 2-for-1 deal. (Can't say if this is bad balance-wise or not, but it may lead to Tahm accidentally killing his teammates when using the ability that is supposed to save them--maybe increased spit distance may be a solution here, so it's more of Tahm sacrificing himself and less of both of them getting away for free).

Also, considering the frustration of Tahm's ally-saving ability--which requires heavy commitment from him, on top of proximity to an ally on a low-mobility character, on top of sacrificing an offensive option and so on--does this mean that Thresh may be looked at in the near future? While he certainly excels when it comes to picking out enemies, it seems a bit overkill to allow him to save an ally without really having to sacrifice anything. For a champ who is able to deliver a Death Sentence for any poor soul he's able to catch, it almost seems a bit unfair that he can freely save an ally at the edge of his screen in the same breath.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20154 votes

Tahm is actually not that slow! At 335 base movements speed he's in the third tier of MS. Here's a handy comparison:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed

I would love if enemies ever felt that getting an impactful CC on Tahm with an ally in his stomach was a "2 for 1" deal, but I'm not sure we'll get there. Tahm tends to wait to eat an ally until AFTER the enemy has used their big CC on that ally, and even if there's a second big CC for Tahm, it's unlikely there'll be a THIRD for when the ally pops out again.

CSDragonDec 5, 201513 votes

Against most of our roster, Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them. Nearly every ADC should be able to kite him, anyone with a mobility tool should be able to opt out of fighting him, and so on. We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are, it is okay for him to have the damage he does.

WHAT

This is FAR from true. Tahm's CC is so oppressive landing a single Q allows him to chase me down as most champions I play. Even Tristana. And goodness, if I'm playing Ashe, Jinx, Twitch or Miss Fortune, I'm done.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 20156 votes

There's a chance his base MS is a little high, but other than that, all the champions you mentioned should have ways of getting him from getting to them. I've been playing a whole bunch of support Tahm myself and I find that I get to the enemy only if they've squandered their safety tools AND stepped forward too much AND if their support is spending their CC budget on my ADC.

If you have replays of this happening or links to timestamps in stream VODs, I'd love to see and analyze what happened.

FlemmanDec 6, 20154 votes

well, base all your cc power to control a never ending healing champ is not a great idea either, so if the stickiness isn't the problem, his regen is because you can't really peal him out of lane either

EkanselttarDec 5, 201513 votes

My feeling on Tahm is generally that he just exceeds his power budget and that knocking down any of his skills could bring him into a bearable position.

If his Q didn't have such a strong slow on it, he wouldn't be able to reliably Devour ranged champs off of one hit, and if it didn't have such a low mana cost/cooldown it wouldn't feel so much like the sword (or tongue, I guess) is constantly dangling over your throat.

If his W didn't have such high damage on it, it wouldn't feel completely futile to try fighting him as a melee champion, and if it didn't have such a low cooldown, it wouldn't feel like he gives up absolutely nothing to eat an ally.

If his E didn't heal so much, poking him wouldn't feel so futile, and if the duration or quantity of the shield was lower, then it wouldn't feel like you have to kill him completely twice over.

And if his ult didn't have such high damage on the passive, he wouldn't go from decently strong to unkillable 1v1 with a single hp item.

I'll bring up Swain as a champion that Tahm should emulate more in feel. It might seem a little strange, but hear me out. Swain's main laning pattern - spam E with occasional Q and maybe fish for Ws - is not all that interactive. If he had fewer low points, he would feel absolutely awful to play against. But he does have those lows, and so he's not. You aren't thinking, "Well, I can't poke him out, but I can... not do anything else either." You're thinking, "I can't poke him out, BUT I can shove him in and make him miss farm." Or "I can't win short trades, BUT I can bait his W and all-in him." Or even, "I can't win fights against him normally, BUT I have a window whenever my Ignite comes up where I can."

Right now, it feels like the ball is always in Tahm's court. It's not satisfying to try poking him or all-inning him and he erases his own mistakes while punishing yours extremely hard. There is no "BUT" moment while fighting him. If you're playing a ranged champion, it's, "His Q poke does a lot of damage AND allows him to reliably eat me AND it's hard to poke him down AND he does tons of damage when he reaches me" and not "His Q poke does a lot of damage and he wins all-ins, BUT I can poke him down and kite him unless I really mess up."

That said, I will emphasize one aspect of his kit that could potentially cut right to the quick in regards to negative feelings when the toad is loaded: his W provides a high point in the same magnitude as a Blitz hook, but its cooldown doesn't reflect this. It wouldn't be frustrating if his big move in the fight was simply eating a carry in danger. As it stands, with Devour on a 6-second CD with 40% CDR, he can use his W to save an ally and then turn around and chunk an enemy with it. There is no strategic choice for Tahm. No give and take. Just take take take. Or, put it this way: Ally Devour is very much analogous to Zhonya's active in effect and power. If you Zhonya a Thresh hook, that's clutch. If you could Zhonya a Thresh hook and then Zhonya a Syndra ult in the same fight, that wouldn't be clutch, it would just be bullshit.

SpecterVonBarenDec 5, 20156 votes

Tahm's rarely see more than 20% CDR in their build. None of the big CDR items provide health, which Tahm wants. At most Tahm's will get 10% from Spirit Visage top or 20% from Face of the Mountain and Locket of Iron Solari as support.

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 201513 votes

Let's talk about power vs frustration for a moment!

You start out your post by saying that Tahm is over his power budget and then listing a number of ways that his spells do too much (and you're onto something for most of these, actually; they're all tuned very strongly).

In this thread I'm looking at frustration much more than power. Power is easy to measure; frustration isn't. Power-wise, Tahm is actually in a good spot (pre-season may have given him a slight bump, but he was very weak before).

Power is measured by win rate. Obviously you then have a bunch of conditionals to that winrate (what ELO are we looking at? How does this behave over time? How does the winrate change with game length? What positions are we looking at?), but in the end of the day, power is knowable.

Internal tools show Tahm Kench at a 47-48% winrate in the last three weeks across all regions and game lengths, in Normal 5v5s, Ranked Solo 5v5s, and Teambuilder 5v5s at ELOs of 1500+. If we expand to all ELOs, I see him at 49%, but at a slight downward trend (suggesting that at lower ELOs people are doing a worse job playing against Tahm, but are learning). Pre-season bumped him up by about 2%, so he was at 45-46% before in high ELO.

So again, if you're arguing that his power is too high, I will politely disagree, which is why I phrased this thread not in terms of power, but in terms of frustration. Frustration can come from power, but I don't think that's the case here. Janna has had 53/54% winrates literally for years now, and I never hear people talk about Janna as a highly frustrating character to play against (although Gosu may disagree with me here). Is Janna powerful? Absolutely. That E alone is ridiculous, and she is the queen of disengage. But is she frustrating to play around? I don't think so.

HellioningDec 6, 20158 votes

Really? Power is measured by winrate?

That's strange, because I've heard Rioters say otherwise.

You guys need to talk to each other more, I guess.

qetzelDec 6, 20156 votes

Power, not balance. Power in a vacuum is to do with how well the champion does, measured solely by how many games the champion wins.

Balance takes into account how frustrating the champion is, the teamcomps used, the current meta (Teamfight metas favour AOE, for example, so a balanced champion may have over 50% WR if they have a large amount of AOE) and many other things.

A champion can therefore be more powerful than the average but still be balanced. Weird, but true.

HellioningDec 7, 20155 votes

If power is just winrate, then the current meta also affects power. Jinx, for example, is the quintessential solo queue champion, apperantly. Riot has said that she's balanced when she's above 50% winrate because she's a good teamfighter. Logically, then, she's more powerful then other ADCs, because her winrate is higher.

Phoenix Kotori Dec 6, 201512 votes

WTF Riot has for years said that 'power' =/= 'win rate' =/= 'balanced' **REPEATEDLY ** to us and now you're trying to defend him as acceptable with it?

SkirfirDec 5, 20153 votes

As someone who's played a lot of Tahm Kench since he came out (and couldn't believe the buffs when he got them), a quick idea for balancing his E:

Maybe instead of transforming ALL damage taken into grey health, only a portion of it would be transformed based on skill rank with a higher initial rate for passive healing that may not even have to increase (or scale downwards with better total regeneration because math?). This would mean that he can still heal up from poke fairly well, but not be able to tank an entire enemy team's worth of damage until he invests some skill points. As of now, the only actual reason to invest in E is for the increased healing that doesn't do anything in actual fights that he won't win without either having points in his other skills or teammates that he'll need to create pressure for, probably using E active in the process. Comparing Tahm to other late game super-tanks like Mundo or Darius, his E would be pretty reasonable late game if he didn't have so much damage from pure tank items.

So just as an example:

Rank 1 E converts 40% of damage taken into grey health, and regenerates 40% of grey health out of combat (100 damage taken, 40 grey health, 16 health recovered) Rank 2 E converts 55%, regenerates 37.5% (100 damage taken, 55 grey health, 21 health recovered) Rank 3 E converts 70%, regenerates 35% (100 damage taken, 70 grey health, 25 health recovered) Rank 4 E converts 85%, regenerates 32.5% (100 damage taken, 850 thousand grey health, 28 health recovered) Rank 5 E converts 100%, regenerates 30% (100 damage taken, 100 grey health, 30 health recovered)

Now the only thing people will complain about is math!

Hay5eedDec 5, 20156 votes

"We have always known that uniquely strong safety moves will create frustration. Some amount of frustration is absolutely a necessary part of the game. Frustration at your plans not working out or the enemy outplaying you is an essential low moment in a PvP game like League, which buys us the high moments when things do work out. So frustration per se is not a bad thing. It’s when a moment feels unfair or like there was nothing else you could have done that we have a problem." - Fizz lol wut?

Final Raid BossDec 6, 20153 votes

feels good to know tahm will be forced into a role the vast majority of tahm players don't want. he has support attributes (ie the fact that allies "can" use your ult, or devour obviously) but that doesn't mean he automatically has to be a bot lane support. support his other roles instead, top lane and jungle tahm much better/fun than support tahm (which will still get enforced by riot)

his ultimate is just too clunky and time consuming to use for an ally. not a bad idea in theory, but poorly executed. the only way it could be half decent is if everyone on the team has voice chat (hooray e$sports win). can't expect your teammates to know when and where you will ult as tahm nor is it really worth the time to wait for them. the range on it really isn't that amazing either when you need it the most (Early-mid game for ganks), by the time you properly coordinate the ult with an ally in solo queue your opportunity to make a play will be gone. you could make it a little less obvious to the enemy team that he's ulting. sion doesn't give the enemy some kind of indicator on the ground as to where his ult will go, it's just a vocal cue.

CSDragonDec 5, 201511 votes

Make a tank who is not defined by AOE CC or single target pickoff

Investigate why some champions cannot opt out of fighting Tahm (more on this below)

He may not have AoE cc, but he has an OBSCENE amount of single target CC

With 40% cdr, like most tanks and supports get, Tahm has a 1.5 second stun on a 3.6 second cooldown, and a 3 second suppress on a 6 second cd.

He can literally chain his Q infinitely, and W whenever someone starts to get too close to safety to bring them back away from safety.

See the problem?

And of course, all his skills do INSANE DAMAGE

SpecterVonBarenDec 5, 20153 votes

What items do you see Tahm's buying to reach 40% CDR?

SaixosDec 5, 20157 votes

item 3190 item 3065 item 3401 item 3110 item 3025 item 3222 item 3050 are all cooldown reduction items that Tahm can make use of. Face & locket together already give him 20%, and that's pretty much every game as support Tahm,

RiotZenonTheStoicDec 6, 201514 votes

Now compare this to the likes of Nautilus, Blitzcrank, or Rammus in terms of how easy it is for him to access this CC.

In order to CC someone from a medium distance, Nautilus can either hook with Q or cast R and follow up with whichever one he didn't use. He then gets to root them with his passive and slow them with his E. The important part is, he needs to hit one skillshot at 1100 or walk up within 850 range and it's game over for the enemy. All further follow up from this point is pretty much guaranteed.

Blitzcrank needs to hit one 950 range skillshot to displace you by that amount, knock you up, and silence you. Again: one successful hit and you're pretty much done.

Rammus has to get within 325 range to taunt you, it's true, but he gets to move at up to +140% MS to do so. Again, he needs to do one thing (get within range), which he has a potent tool to do, and then it's curtains for you.

By comparison, Tahm needs to hit his skillshot (800 range, fully telegraphed with ground particle), walk up to you with zero mobility tools, attack you two more times, and then give up the one ability that makes him incredibly strong (Devour--because let's not forget that while devour can do three different things, it can only ever do one thing per cooldown).

Pick-off tanks decide that you've lost the game in a very short window of time. Tahm has a whole ceremony he has to go through to pick you off. If you have any allies around you at all, you should be able to keep him from getting to you.

HellioningDec 6, 201512 votes

Right, let's compare them, shall we?

Naut's R is on a fairly long cooldown, and doesn't travel instantly; the person can see they're being targetted and work to get away, which can basically waste it. His Q has a fairly decent cast time and travel time.

If Blitz misses his hook, he has nothing. He has to run up to you to do anything else. And his hook costs a lot of mana and has a fairly decently long cooldown.

And Rammus' terrifying 140% bonus MS can be stopped by him hitting something else and requires a charge up time.

To contrast, Tahm's Q does not have an actual travel time, just a delay, and has low mana cost and cooldown. He can fish for fights better then Blitz or Naut; a missed tongue lash means a lot less for Tahm then a missed hook means for Blitz or Naut.

(Oh, and 'but his other use of devour is super strong, so it's okay for this one to be super strong to because of oppertunity cost!' is a bad argument.)

SpecterVonBarenDec 7, 20153 votes

Tahm is able to fish more because Naut and Blitz's hooks are much more decisive when hitting someone. Rammus I agree has a harder time getting to someone, but Rammus just needs to get to them and then press one key, Tahm has to get to them and autuo them two times before he can use his W. You're once again exaggerating what Tahm is capable of.

HellioningDec 7, 20157 votes

'Getting to them' is not hard with as high a slow as he has.

And yes, some champs can peel fairly easily. The problem is that there are many champs that cannot peel; I don't want to have to pick a disengage champ on the off chance the enemy might pick tahm.

SaixosDec 7, 20152 votes

I would argue that a problem here is that unlike Naut, Rammus, or Blitz, there is nobody on the team who wants to be eaten by Tahm. That thing not only deals a shitton of damage, but completely removes you from the fight for a period of time. With Blitzcrank and Naut I'd LOVE to get hooked as Amumu or Sion, and I'm perfectly happy to run in front of Rammus to cancel his powerball. With Tahm, I don't want to get close to him at all, not as a marksman or a tank. Removing the Tank means lack of frontline, which lets the enemy team zone everyone else and makes it difficult for them to follow up. Removing the marksman removes damage, removing the support means that they can't provide any utility.

The downside would be that you then lack devourer to save an ally, but I've never run into a situation where I felt "Tahm ate me, now we can blow up Jinx without issues"

KingsgraveDec 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Now compare this to the likes of Nautilus, Blitzcrank, or Rammus in terms of how easy it is for him to access this CC.

In order to CC someone from a medium distance, Nautilus can either hook with Q or cast R and follow up with whichever one he didn't use. He then gets to root them with his passive and slow them with his E. The important part is, he needs to hit one skillshot at 1100 or walk up within 850 range and it's game over for the enemy. All further follow up from this point is pretty much guaranteed.

Blitzcrank needs to hit one 950 range skillshot to displace you by that amount, knock you up, and silence you. Again: one successful hit and you're pretty much done.

Rammus has to get within 325 range to taunt you, it's true, but he gets to move at up to +140% MS to do so. Again, he needs to do one thing (get within range), which he has a potent tool to do, and then it's curtains for you.

By comparison, Tahm needs to hit his skillshot (800 range, fully telegraphed with ground particle), walk up to you with zero mobility tools, attack you two more times, and then give up the one ability that makes him incredibly strong (Devour--because let's not forget that while devour can do three different things, it can only ever do one thing per cooldown).

Pick-off tanks decide that you've lost the game in a very short window of time. Tahm has a whole ceremony he has to go through to pick you off. If you have any allies around you at all, you should be able to keep him from getting to you.

I don't think Tahm's Q is telegraphed enough and is way too hard to dodge, especially if you are anywhere near him. This is really overpowering considering that it is often a 60-80% slow and then he can usually get his bite off on you before it wears off. Making it harder to dodge thus harder to land, thus rewarding better kench players, would make him far less oppressive to deal with.

nguyenmbDec 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Now compare this to the likes of Nautilus, Blitzcrank, or Rammus in terms of how easy it is for him to access this CC.

In order to CC someone from a medium distance, Nautilus can either hook with Q or cast R and follow up with whichever one he didn't use. He then gets to root them with his passive and slow them with his E. The important part is, he needs to hit one skillshot at 1100 or walk up within 850 range and it's game over for the enemy. All further follow up from this point is pretty much guaranteed.

Blitzcrank needs to hit one 950 range skillshot to displace you by that amount, knock you up, and silence you. Again: one successful hit and you're pretty much done.

Rammus has to get within 325 range to taunt you, it's true, but he gets to move at up to +140% MS to do so. Again, he needs to do one thing (get within range), which he has a potent tool to do, and then it's curtains for you.

By comparison, Tahm needs to hit his skillshot (800 range, fully telegraphed with ground particle), walk up to you with zero mobility tools, attack you two more times, and then give up the one ability that makes him incredibly strong (Devour--because let's not forget that while devour can do three different things, it can only ever do one thing per cooldown).

Pick-off tanks decide that you've lost the game in a very short window of time. Tahm has a whole ceremony he has to go through to pick you off. If you have any allies around you at all, you should be able to keep him from getting to you.

I feel you haven't double downed on your frustration vs power argument. Not only is power not related to frustration, but frustration is heavily tied to lack of clarity.

I feel like you are justifying that tahm kench's play pattern is ok because he "has a whole ceremony he has to go through" while blitzcrank's and rammus's are 'easier' but don't register as high on the frustration level. Just because it's 'harder' for tahm kench to perform his 'ceremony' doesn't make it less frustrating than blitz/rammus. Part of the frustration is due to the obfuscation. If a player dies to blitzcrank, it's much more clearer what the player needs to do to avoid it next time. With Tahm kench, the answer is 'kite' him, (but that's the answer to every melee champion) what do you specifically do different to avoid dieing to tahm kench than a different melee character?

On another clarity issue, I find his grey health super unreadable, I have a very difficult time understanding how much life an opponent tahm kench has.