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Taliyah post-release follow up

RiotZenonTheStoic·5/24/2016, 9:09:32 PM·1 votes·87,860 views

Hello friends and fans of underwater stone basket weaving!

Taliyah is out in the world and weaving stones / breaking bones (albeit sometimes mostly her own). I want to open the floor to questions from all of you fine folk here, but first, let me say a few words about where Taliyah is now and what our plan is.

Taliyah released weak

It makes sense that when you play a champion for the first time you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re going to have less of a chance to win your game. It also makes sense that if you’ve never seen anyone play the champion before, you don’t even know where to start. So champions releasing at a low winrate is a good thing (if they released at 50%, they’d be game-breakingly OP within a week), but 37% was too much of a good thing for Taliyah.

Taliyah mostly struggles in lane due to the duration of exhausted ground and her inability to counter-push against someone with great wave clear (which is many mid lane champions). We’ve addressed some of that in a hotfix already, but we’re planning to help her out some more in 6.11.

Taliyah mostly does what we want her to

Taliyah is mostly played midlane and has the highest winrate midlane. She punishes sidelanes with her roams, but also dies due to, shall we say, ambitious ults. That’s all good! She also rewards players who constantly look for fresh ground for her Q. That said, there are some shaky bits, but instead of going over them all myself, I will now open this thread for questions. I’m absolutely certain that some of you will have questions (and I may have one or two answers ready).

So let me know: how have you been enjoying Taliyah? What are your questions and suggestions?

EDIT: I answered as much as I could tonight. Sorry if I didn't get to your post! Make sure to check if I haven't answered it elsewhere.

340 Comments

1Ferdinand15/24/2016, 9:18:46 PM29 votes

The cast time of her W and E, since those abilities are often used in succession for the combo the "self-cc" is too long, and the combo feels way too slow if you add the W delayed knock-up.

Hige5/24/2016, 9:36:26 PM18 votes

I love playing her, sadly I did play a lot of Taliyah in Urf so my first impressions were kind of skewed, that said the few games I've had with her in ranked I've had a lot of fun.

The feel of the champion is awesome and unique, she has a very different rhythm from other champions but yes she's a bit on the weak side.

**my suggestions **would be:

Decrease the size of worked ground instead of it's duration (though the hotfix value is acceptable), having a zone where you gain movement speed is incredibly useful, even if the bonus speed is very little, and reducing it's duration could be felt as a sort of nerf... of course there's the issue of her damage output but I think that a smaller area could help her not end up all covered in worked ground too quick.
Her ult is... interestingly powerful but it kind of lacks something, I think that making it a bit thicker could be a good idea in order to prevent easy jumpovers. Also, please give clarity about what side you end up at, sometimes you don't wanna end up on melee range against an enemy, of course you can hop out early but even then, ending up on the wrong side is very frustrating. I think it'd be a good idea if the placement of your mouse determined where you'll land.

My complains would be:

Q on worked ground firing just one stone for half mana is really unfair, if anything it should be 1/5 but oh well its cost is not that high either way.
W locking you out of Q or your ult without a chance to even queue skills
the annoying bug on her passive that if you happen to step out of the stone you need to wait like 2 seconds before you can jump on it again, no matter how close to a wall you are.

Mahou Lulu5/24/2016, 9:57:12 PM15 votes

Taliyah has an amazingly fun kit. She's one of my favorite champions to come out in 2-3 years. That said, if there's absolutely anywhere you need to look at in fixing her kit, it's her Q.

I get the idea behind Q. You want to reward people looking for new ground. The problem is that she's not given that opportunity in places where she wants to be the zoning/control mage. Sieging towers can painful because there's only so many places you can move to while still being able to hit a direction-locked spell with range that isn't very long. Laning is painful because while your enemy can move wherever they want and deal consistent high damage to you, you're forced to look for spots in an already tiny lane or deal no damage in return. Her Q is rewarding the first two or three times you cast it, and then it becomes a major hindrance. You begin to feel suffocated by your own kit. Obviously, a balance needs to be struck. You want a high impact spell with noticeable gameplay and counterplay attached, but I feel like the balance is skewed more towards benefiting the enemy than it is Taliyah or her kit. There's just too much negativity attached to using her Q. Taliyah misses her Q, and the enemy gains a huge advantage in that area for the next 2+ minutes, which is a LONG time.

Worked Ground's duration either needs to be reduced even further (because 2+ minutes of a negative side-effect for a spell that is unreliable and unit-blocked isn't as equal a trade-off as you probably think it is) or its size needs to be made smaller so that you can play around more ground and thus make more circles in small spaces. If you would rather keep Worked Ground as is, then the detrimental effect of the ground itself needs to be reduced because 1/3rd of your damage for half cost is essentially useless. Perhaps 2 rocks instead of 1 on Worked Ground or some such change.

I also want to express that the recent mana hotfix feels like it may be the wrong direction. Not once did mana become an issue for me with Taliyah. She needs changes in places that don't involve her stats, because it's her mechanics that are holding her back. If I want to waveclear as Taliyah and survive lane, I max E (like many streamers and youtubers have been doing recently).

Funk5/25/2016, 12:36:08 AM15 votes

Her W is just clunky to cast, it should work like a Viktor Laser or Rumble Ult (you click where you want the ability to cast and then drag the direction you want to shove them). Also taking damage while riding the wall shouldn't kick you off early (CC is understandable though) its similar to Aurelion Sol's Comet of Legend but her's is an ultimate. Also her Q on worked ground should have another effect, maybe double damage? A big slow? Feels lackluster and punishes the player. Maybe make it so she rocksurfs on worked ground? I dunno

DuhBeesKnees5/25/2016, 2:25:03 AM12 votes

You really need listen to the players and stop having the standard Riot attitude of "I know what you want better than you do". I haven't seen one person agree with you on how her W should work on here or Reddit. It makes her feel just gross to play at times. If you're really that hardheaded about it then you can leave being locked out of other spells while casting W but just make it vector targeting. It takes at most 3 games to get a hold of it. Please don't cater to people who don't feel like putting in the time to learn the champ, it would even make her numbers easier to balance since the W-E combo would actually be reliable now if you're good with W placement. You're only argument against W being vector cast is that it's too hard to use when two other champs in the game already have it and it's part of what distinguishes a good Vik/ Rumble from a bad one. That's good design, being able to learn to play the champ better, limiting gameplay just for bad players is a terrible idea, especially for a champ as unique and interesting as Taliyah.

DarkRitual5/25/2016, 1:22:29 AM11 votes

I recall attacking wards didn't count as being in combat for Cinderhulk, but why does hitting a ward disable her passive? This feels very inconsistant.

Magic Serwyn5/24/2016, 11:10:10 PM11 votes

Hi ! I have some concern about Taliyah. I really love her.

First, please, as so much people said, change W to a vector spell. It would feel so much better to use. Really. Pleaaaaaaaaase. Even if you keep the spell lock. Please. Second, You say she's supposed to be a disruptor, but in fact she's not really. Her efficiency in teamfight is so-so at the best, cause she has no way to damage the backlane, poor AOE damages and only a little, mostly single-target, cc. You try to avoid teamfight with Taliyah and only skrimish. Third, About her passif. It's really cool ! She's surfing on rock, fuck yeah. But it is kinda annoying to always micromanage your moves to keep the buff. Would you consider giving it more range ? That wouldn't make it really better, but feel better.

Finally, i have a question for you. You gave Taliyah a lot of counterplay and little things to help her opponents. Like, the time to dodge more Q's bullets, blocking cast when casting W so that "your opponent know you will cast W when you cast your E". But in fact, she's already really easy to play against. Her spells are easy to dodge, she does not have a long time CC, she has low range, worked ground, no point spell, only little instant damage. Don't you think it's a little bit unfair for a Taliyah's player to have to go through all these difficulties to do damages when an opponent like Anivia, Fizz, Zed, Annie and a lot more will always make you a large percent of their damages without possibility to avoid it ?

SvenB5/24/2016, 10:03:09 PM10 votes

I really love Taliyah, but I find it really hard to see the worked ground with her default skin. Its way clearer for me with her blue ice skin. Are there any plans to change the appearance of worked ground?

Fondling Gems5/24/2016, 9:24:23 PM10 votes

Her passive feels kinda tacky. Due to her ult it makes roaming without it feel lackluster, but her ult range means that free movespeed doesn't do much for her. Sure it adds up if I am running to bot lane, but I am not running bot lane, I am only walking 1/2 way then ulting.

On top of that it takes so long to start after combat it is generally useless for escaping or chasing after teamfights.

I love the idea, but it is a pretty small movespeed buff that is only useful if you haven't done anything but walk for 5 seconds AND your ult is down.

I would like to see any of the following l:

A) only champ dmg interrupts it

B) she can still cast spells/deal dmg w/o interrupting it

C) kicks in sooner (maybe scales w/ level)

D) she can take and deal dmg to minions/non-epic monsters w/o interrupting it

Seppe5/25/2016, 6:56:00 AM8 votes

I think that when you use your Q on the "Worked Ground" it shouldn't reset the timer.

Qiyana is SO HOT5/24/2016, 9:54:34 PM7 votes

Why is her E range so close compared to her W range? Alot of her damage/power come from her ability to E>W combo people but her E is almost melee range which is where she doesnt want to be. Trying to get a E down vs any assassin is a really really high risk atm. If they jump on you before you drop it your probably dead. If her Q wasnt gated by worked ground then id understand perfectly but because Q isnt really a spammable ability you do have to rely on your E>W combo for burst. Any chance we can see her E range just moved out a tiny bit more so she isnt so hard countered by assassins?