Boards›Discuss the Boards

Time to move on: Insurmountable issues with the current platform

Deep Terror Nami··31 votes·15,082 views

The consistent use and the immediate profound impact of upvote botting/brigading makes it impossible to look at the Hot page without wondering if the community got it there, or a single individual did. Once something is there the community will tend to give it attention, no matter how it arrived, and unfairly drives community discussion in this way when individuals or groups manipulate votes. Some of the most well loved Boards users have even done so over several years to ensure they are always in the spotlight (akin to a streamer using viewbots).

I'm well aware of the limitations of this platform and of those moderating it; the mods can't be blamed for solving this issue, because the tools necessary for it don't exist here. The possibility of simple turning votes off for all sub-boards does not sit well with most, so is ultimately not an option.

So, what do we do? I think it's past time to migrate to a new platform that can actually accomodate change and is professionally developed and maintained. These manipulated posts are like unmarked "sponsored" ads, and I didn't even get into the situation where the same people use downvotes to harass and keep any opposition out of sight.

24 Comments

ModJikker8 votes

If it helps, we are looking at options to help control the upvotes/downvotes on certain sub-boards.

Stepping out of my mod shoes for a moment, I have never liked this platform at all. If anyone remembers back to the original migration, I was very outspoken against it (and somewhat stubborn if I may be honest). If we could have a new platform that would allow things like moving threads and a better search feature on top of better voting control, I would love it. I don't see that in the very near future for Riot though.

KVbqbFsC8e4 votes

I don't think Riot has any incentive to develop a new platform.

OneMustFall3 votes

I've been saying it for years, I would just disable voting altogether and let threads stand on their own merits. Hot topics that get the most views/comments are the ones that will show up in the hot feed. Everything else is moot anyway. I rarely pay attention to threads based on upvotes since circlejerking is extremely prevalent on these boards.

At the very least, downvoting should be eliminated. I'm tired of seeing posts by Moderators and Riot staff get downvoted into oblivion by the ignorant mob so I have to click to see what they're saying. I'm sure it's annoying to them as well especially when they're spending the time to write a thoughtful response, which is more than you see from 90% of the upvoted threads on these boards.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

To be fair in a lot of cases said mods or rioters call it on themselves.

ModEvangele3 votes

Nami On a whole real level, both as a poster and a moderator, I agree.

I would love a new platform and to be able to have input into what would make it more functional and desirable from both a poster and moderation standard.

That being said, I'm unsure of the willingness of Rito to move to another new platform at this point, though I can attest to the mod team expressing our desire for either fixes/changes to the current platform or a new one all together. Rito is definitely aware of our/the communities frustrations with the current structure.

The limitations of this platform are astounding, though there is quite a lot that we CAN do. As Jikker mentioned, we are looking at different ways that we can combat certain problems that have reared up and will be implementing a few as soon as we can. Our (entirely volunteer) Boards Dev and Jr Boards Dev teams have been working hard on giving us some functionality that the Boards lack in terms of moderation tools/clarity as well as some fun stuff on the front side that has already been placed into effect. Wuks might have more up his sleeve as the champion he is, but personally I dont know much about that kind of stuff so I cannot allude to what is possible or not.

rujitra2 votes

Has the moderator team considered either resigning or taking off a day or two in protest?

If the moderator team keeps up this “well, let’s do what we can as if everything’s okay” then of course riot won’t do anything.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}Has the moderator team considered either resigning or taking off a day or two in protest?

No, because all that will do is make the boards worse for a few days. Riot is aware of the situation, but we don't have the power or sway by our presence or absence to reach the people who would need to make those decisions any more than the concerns we have already passed on would. All we would realistically do is make life worse for the Rioters who work with us and who have, I am sure, already communicated the community and mod team's frustrations.

rujitra1 votes

Unfortunately sometimes in businesses strikes are necessary tools when the business does not listen to the “employees”.

As I said, potentially a solution is a “slowdown” as common in non US countries - urgent work continues but no projects are worked on and moderation would be limited to things such as pornography/fraud links.

While I respect your opinion, obviously the people who make these choices are not listening to your concerns. They will have to listen to them if there is no moderation in the boards, or have to find new moderators who are complicit. I don’t agree with sitting back and saying “well, nothing’s getting done now so there’s nothing more we can do”. Making the boards worse would be seen by at least some Rioters who would then start asking why internally - which would be the reason they start asking why.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

{quoted}While I respect your opinion, obviously the people who make these choices are not listening to your concerns. They will have to listen to them if there is no moderation in the boards, or have to find new moderators who are complicit.

And while I respect your opinion, I am the only one of us in the position to make that choice, and I am also in a better position to understand how much sway the mod team and the boards have, and how much leverage we have to force the hand of Riot. If I thought there was a reasonable chance of such a course of action succeeding I would say so.

I don’t agree with sitting back and saying “well, nothing’s getting done now so there’s nothing more we can do”.

Nobody has been saying that, and we've been doing internal work to see what we can do and making sure Riot is aware of the concerns. The fact that we're not taking the approach you feel is best does not mean nothing is being done towards making progress.

rujitra1 votes

I am curious if you don't think it will get their attention what do you think the outcome is? Do you think they will let the boards be a cesspool? Do you think they will fail to realize the fact that it is a deliberate slowdown? Do you think that they will attempt to remedy it without asking why the slowdown/strike is occurring?

Strikes occur because they work when other options do not. I respect that you are in the position to choose (although I disagree slightly in that I feel strongly that a group of moderators could very well choose to strike even if you disagree personally in doing so). I do not however understand why, if it is as you keep saying that Riot refuses to implement changes and/or is too slow to listen to you that you will not take the measure.

I think this is the biggest problem people have - it's not that there's no move feature, it's that this has been brought up for years and we never get updates on it. If you care about having a move feature (which imo you should for both moderation sanity as well as community focus) then "Riot said no" or "Riot isn't listening" is not an acceptable update to us. If Riot is not listening to you, make them in some way. Being complicit in a lack of understanding/updates from Riot simply because of an unwillingness or desire not to take drastic action when lower actions have not worked is simply irresponsible to those of us boards members you are serving.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

Before I respond, I'd like to note a concerning trend that makes you difficult to talk to -- you have a habit of taking a hard-line stance on a lot of things to the point where you are willing to do things like insist your option is the only viable way or accuse us of complicity in something if we don't happen to agree with you. It's very difficult to have a reasonable conversation into responses like that.

I am curious if you don't think it will get their attention what do you think the outcome is?

The outcome of a moderator strike? A worse board state for everyone, a time people who dislike moderation can active point to as better than the current state, and even less incentive for Riot to come to the boards or see value in the boards.

Do you think they will let the boards be a cesspool?

I can't speak for them, but, were I in their shoes, I would consider no boards superior to un-moderated boards.

Do you think that they will attempt to remedy it without asking why the slowdown/strike is occurring?

I do not think remedying it is a current priority for Riot. The boards work, by and large, even if there's a lot we don't like. At a time their dev team is undoubtedly doing work to support new sites and tech for the upcoming games there isn't the bandwidth to rebuild the boards platform.

I do not however understand why, if it is as you keep saying that Riot refuses to implement changes and/or is too slow to listen to you that you will not take the measure.

Because I have an understanding of the way company priorities dictate the time and resource expenditure of a company, and I understand that pushing out new games and new clients requires a lot of work from teams that might otherwise be working on things like the Boards which are, ultimately, lesser priorities with alternative solutions.

If Riot is not listening to you, make them in some way.

You overestimate the sway I have greatly, and, frankly, I won't be bossed around like this by you. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but I feel very much like you're trying to strong-arm me based on your opinion here, and I don't appreciate that. Riot is listening, and they are well aware of the concerns. Neither I nor the entire Boards community has the sway I believe necessary to force Riot's development bandwidth to prioritize the boards, especially as it's entirely possible the boards get redesigned and/or changed to support the upcoming games. I honestly don't know.

rujitra2 votes

The outcome of a moderator strike? A worse board state for everyone, a time people who dislike moderation can active point to as better than the current state, and even less incentive for Riot to come to the boards or see value in the boards.

Let's look at airlines - pick your preferred one which has had a strike/slowdown recently. Sure, the outcome for customers was slightly worse for a short time. But they got changes done. It seems you are too set on being against a strike simply because it will remove moderation temporarily. Fine - make it a slowdown then. Stop moderating more "minor" things such as bickering/insults. Let the boards go to shit, so that Riot takes note and does something. If that's removing the boards, fine. But until something is done, you remain a volunteer moderator of a site where the company you are "working" for does not care about you, does not listen to you, provides little if any support to you, and quite frankly is using you. The worst part is that your responses here indicate to me (and others) that you are happy to be doing this.

I like Riot as a company for the most part. I do not believe they are intentionally trying to use you or give you the shaft. I think that the problem likely arises from some disconnect between whoever initiated the Boards project (likely still not in the role), whoever (if anyone) oversees it now, and the rest of Riot. While you may very well be voicing your concerns to someone at Riot or Support, that does not mean they are being acted on. It may very well be that whoever you have access to to complain does not have the authority or access themselves to do anything about it. For all we know as boards users, it's an overworked person trying to do the best they can with the project they were assigned to do.

Obviously the people who have the authority to make changes are not listening to you because changes are not being made. Imagine a pipe that is clogged - you can keep shoving your complaints into it but they still aren't going to get anywhere. The only way you can get the pipe unclogged is to make the people with the authority remember the boards exist and realize the problems. They are not going to do so when you do not have access to them. I admire how you are trying - but there comes a time that trying does not work anymore and that another method must be tried.

I am more than happy to accept that you're doing something - but nowhere in any of these replies have you indicated you are trying anything different. You continue to say, and we have heard for months/years now that you're complaining/bringing it up. I have not once seen a single issue or feature be acted upon by Riot. Not once. I may be wrong, but it is still going to be a very small number compared to the number of issues/features that have been brought up by boards users and the moderators say they forward to Riot. So obviously, it hasn't been working. How long will you continue to try the same tactics before something changes? If your answer is that you will continue for months doing the same things when they do not get things done, then that is unintentional futility at best, and being complicit in the lack of action at worst.

You say it is hard to have reasonable conversation when I call you complicit. Maybe it is time you consider that by continuing to utilize the same tactics that do not produce results for month and month, being complicit is exactly what you're doing - either that or being willfully ignorant of the lack of results. Again, I may be wrong - but as I've said multiple times here, we never get a single update or information about changes/communications. If you have gotten different results, we don't know, because as far as we can see as boards users, nothing is changing. I'm happy to apologize and take back all I've said about you guys being complicit in the state of the boards - once you take the time to show us the results that are being obtained.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}We never get a single update or information about changes/communications.

You guys know when I know and what I am allowed to tell you under NDA. But given the tone of that last paragraph, I don't feel like I'll gain much by continuing this conversation. You are free to believe what you want about me, my motivations, and how "complicit" I am. Other mods are allowed to do what they wish. My understanding of the situation, Riot's situation, the availability of Dev resources, and so on leads me to firmly believe your proposal would do nothing productive, and so my answer to your original question remains "no, it's not something I am considering."

rujitra1 votes

So your NDA prohibits you from providing updates to the boards such as “we have been in talks with Riot regarding making X change and it is being worked on” or “Riot has said that this change is not a priority for them”?

You also don’t say anything about how this feels to us, the boards users. Even if you don’t think a strike or slowdown would do anything, there’s another issue regarding the lack of communication from Riot and the moderators. If you’re seriously prohibited Fromm communicating with us via an NDA, that’s an absurd NDA to agree to. NDAs are designed for personal information or trade secrets - not information that you should be telling the community as part of your position. If the NDA you signed does prevent that, then that is something you may wish to discuss with you’r Riot as to why they are prohibiting you from informing the community and being transparent on the boards.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}You also don’t say anything about how this feels to us, the boards users.

It's as frustrating for you as it is for us, if not moreso, yes. But, frankly, you guys are about as informed about future Boards development work as we are.

If the NDA you signed does prevent that, then that is something you may wish to discuss with Riot as to why they are prohibiting you from informing the community and being transparent on the boards.

I believe I will handle my own NDA as I find appropriate, and I do not need suggestions on the subject. I was also not using the NDA as an excuse or a cover so much as saying that I communicate as much information as I am allowed to. There currently not really anything related to Riot-side boards development that I currently know that you guys do not.

That said, I don't believe I have anything more to add to this discussion, and I have answered your original question, so this will be my last post on the topic here.

rujitra1 votes

Understand. I apologize for my time yesterday and its impact on the conversation. Hopefully Riot can at least start communicating to you guys who work for them for free, if not the community as a while. Sorry that they’re making your “jobs” hard it seems.

rujitra1 votes

I hate to be a bother but I would feel more comfortable with a response as to if the moderator team is considering taking measures to force Riot to look into the boards.

A one or two day strike, mass resignations, slowdowns (I.e still moderate but only the absolute requirements like porn), etc.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

You of all people saying this platform is basically toast...and water remains wet. Damn shit really is bad here.

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

Mods should just disable voting for threads for a while (they can leave comment vote available if they want)

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

The consistent use and the immediate profound impact of upvote botting/brigading makes it impossible to look at the Hot page without wondering if the community got it there, or a single individual did.

I'll just use my own post i made a couple of hours ago as an example. I've raised a good point (imho) about the certain limit of the Hextech Loot and i've written a lengthy post about it in order to make it a relevant and good read, instead of just an irrelevant, hate-filled bait that would attract certain people. What i wanted is a discussion and out of two people who've been there (and even if i assume they've both downvoted it), that's -1 and it currently sits at -3. So people are allowed to vote/downvote and essentially bump up/down a post without even wanting to engage in a discussion at hand.

Voting up or down should only be used to push down irrelevant discussions to the topic at hand instead of being used for "visibility" of the post at any point at time. In fact, mods could move posts to the relevant board if that's the case (i know that this Boards doesn't have the capability to do so). If you disagree about something, feel free to express that through verbal conversation. Disagreeing about something through the shadows and essentially making sure that the post you're clearly not interested to engage in never sees the light of the day, is dumb as shit.

I'm not accusing anyone of botting, i just find i amusing that people still complain about toxicity while they turn 180 and do this kind of stuff, without thinking twice about it.

TequilaSnipes1 votes

You know what, i agree. Ive made a really good thread that fixes the disconnection issues for people disconnecting claiming they have great actual wifi connections. Its viral and people dont vote much. Its helped all that ive talked to but i just find they dont go back and like the post like the bots do. Its so obvious to tell if bots are voting because even on the top posts there like 10 or less votes.

Oh and the thread for the fix in case: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/AknHBNAE-add-a-title

Salty Mc Feed1 votes

I am tempted to believe that there are bots but it's just as tempting to believe that users who behave like mindless bots or even better that there are people who don't like certain opinions and use the bots label as convenient excuse to silence them.

But I know one thing for sure: People have been suggesting that you just disable votes completely (for years) because it distracts from the actual discussions and no mod or admin ever gave a shit about these suggestions.

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

All these things do happen (bots, mob mentality etc.), but if you watch the votes happen live you can often distinguish which it is; you can tell it's one person with many accounts when there are no replies but the votes start going up one by one very quickly then suddenly stop (when they run out of accounts). The average user does not refresh the page multiple times just to see if vote manipulation is happening, so the vast majority of people don't recognize it.

Personally, I stick around for a minute to see if there are replies so I can engage in an active conversation, so I might refresh a few times or return in a few minutes and that's when I see suspicious voting patterns like 18 minutes with 4 total votes, and at 24 minutes it has 45 upvotes with no additional comments.

About mods not giving a shit about the suggestions, that's not true. They do care, they are just limited in what they can do (they're actively trying to expand their capabilities btw), and there are negative side effects to disabling votes. Voting on threads was disabled in GD before as a test and the community really fought back against it; it's a solution, but it's like trying to take guns away from the American population.

Salty Mc Feed1 votes

What negative side effects? That you can no longer sort threads by votes?... That's kinda the point. If you really want to you will find other variables that you can use for sorting, maybe even better ones.

If somebody really needs a poll on an issue that they think is important they can create one in a new threat, right?

Of course you could also keep the votes and just not use them for sorting and also don't disable comments because of massive downvotes. But what are the votes actually good for? You don't even know why people vote the way they do, it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, it's not productive, unlike a poll that is well thought out and explained with reasonable options to choose from.

The comparison to guns is really bad, because there is a purpose for guns and you can't just remove all guns reliably, because nobody has that power, which means guns will always come back and then people will want gun for themselves again. Removing the votes would be a piece of cake.

More from Discuss the Boards

Boards Profile Syncing Tool
Discuss the Boards1 comments
201
votes
I am honestly getting very tired of the Boards community.
Discuss the Boards285 comments
195
votes
Alright...so this is somehow punishable now?
Discuss the Boards247 comments
146
votes
Universal Board Rules
Discuss the Boards0 comments
123
votes
Dividers for yours post
Discuss the Boards73 comments
121
votes
A moderator that cannot be named.
Discuss the Boards95 comments
118
votes

More by Deep Terror Nami

When you want some alone time with your significant other, but you've got a kid
Memes & Games45 comments
296
votes
@Riot: I'd like to donate all my RP
Memes & Games127 comments
263
votes
It's my birthday; upvote to get me PBE and Alpha client access
Memes & Games85 comments
230
votes
How the discussion over Mastery 6/7 implementation went.
Memes & Games61 comments
214
votes
Tibbers! How about have Annie toss the bear, so there's chance to react?
Gameplay182 comments
204
votes
Hey guys, just wanted to let you know I've stopped playing League
Memes & Games71 comments
201
votes