The Tristana PBE changes, and why it's no bueno for AP Trist

ChickenWrap·Jul 21, 2014·3 votes·1,441 views

I understand that AD Trist with her attack damage is stronger than she needs to be in the early levels. Good idea, yes, nerf her E. However, AP Trist needs that damage early-game in order to fight someone in the lane. Please give her E a little more AP scaling to make up for her damage loss early, mid, and late-game.

I don't want my baby nerfed just because one of her builds is too powerful. That's not fair. Nobody is complaining about AP Trist, so please don't nerf her.

Thank you.

27 Comments

Flying BuntcakeJul 21, 20142 votes

Maybe her e is a little much?

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

It was nerfed due to AD Tristana's strong early-game.

I would like AP Trist to have compensation so that she at least HAS an early-game where she can fight her opponents. AD Trist builds 0 AP, so increasing her AP ratio a tiny tiny bit on her E would be very nice.

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20142 votes

I am not interested in off builds. I feel that makes champs to hard to balance. I am ok with gutting off kits.

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20141 votes

I am. It's not even difficult to balance out an off-build, especially when Tristana feels like she was meant to be played AP before she was taken AD.

In Trist's case, this is all you need to do. AP Trist isn't complained about because she's not OP. She's just right and there's no reason to nerf a viable build on a champion just because the other build is too strong. Nerfing her base damage on her E hurts AP Trist a lot, since she doesn't do damage from autos.

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20141 votes

If it was not a problem then her AD kit would not be a current issue?

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20141 votes

You are not reading correctly. Please go back and read it through once or twice more and you'll understand.

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20142 votes

no you are not understanding. Her ADC kit is getting to much power out of tools meant for an AP.

Let them get the ADC kit figured out.

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

Adding a slightly higher AP ratio does not touch her AD ratio, and it makes up for the missing base damage for AP Trist players. What about this confuses you? AP Trist relies on that to deal damage. Her autos do jack.

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20141 votes

what part of getting main kit fixed first you do not get. All we need is them is to do is throw in extra power haphazardly and let her become a game warping mid.

Again just let them take their time, off builds should never be primary concern

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

With the base damage being nerfed, she needs something to compensate for it with her AP build. Like a very very very slightly increased ratio so she still has an early-game. Its really straightforward. You want to nerf AD Trist? OK, do it. But don't nerf something thats not a problem (AP Trist). It's not extra power. It's needed to compensate for the nerf that AP Trist is getting. It's a shift in the way the power is granted, but a straight-up buff.

Also, AP Trist will never be a game-warping midlaner. Ever. Also as far as I'm concerned, AD Trist is her off-build. SHe has 0 AD ratios and works so fluently as a mage.

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20141 votes

you are obviously crazy. She has an 80% AS buff. how is that not AD oriented? AS with AD is multiplying DPS stat.

Ashes Ult like trist has PURE AP ratios. Plus trist ult is a disengage tool

Then you consider trist's passive that give her AA extra range.

How does this not read as an AD kit.

Like misfortune maybe riot can figure out the AP later, but it should not be considered above her primary role. And that role according to the league website is ADC (Marksman)

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

Trist's W E and R all scale heavily off of AP damage. How are they AD oriented? =)

Q is pretty nice when combined with a Nashor's Tooth (Malady and all those other items that granted AP to your auto-attacks might have been highlighted for her in days of yore)

Trist's passive also increases the range of her E, her standard AP poke spell.

How does that not read as an AP kit?

SnowFallJul 21, 20141 votes

AP tris is far more balanced than leblanc, there is no safe escape if you fail your kill; you see banshee bubble - it's over for tris, but not over for leblanc. In deep lategame leblanc's damage can be as high as 4000, while tris max damage caps somewhere at 2500. We don't require buffs for ap tris, we just need that compensation to compete against current mid op meta godz (i'm sure u know who they are)

Angry MonsterJul 21, 20141 votes

Q does not work with AP that well and you know it. Your terrible build suggestion ruins a burst kit completely. Also you are ruining your own argument. Malady really? It has not existed since s3. GG you win i can not fight your dream world.

Riot has stated that they give AP ratios on kits so bonus stats from baron have more meaning. You know this but are just trying to twist things into your delusions. I will work with facts.

When you work at RIot you can try and get them to change things. Til then her ADC marking from the web site override your dream world.

Do not bother replaying, you obviously are only into your point of view and not trying to have a real conversation.

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20141 votes

Clearly, you don't know that some items add bonus damage as a % of your AP to your auto-attacks. At max build with a Nashor's, you're dealing up to a bonus fo 190 magic damage per attack. Plius also in Season 4 Arcane Blade is a thing.

You are continuing o not use your head. I said that when she was first conceived, she could have been meant to be a mage champion and that's why her Q existed, because they wanted her to also attack and build items that synergized with attack speed. You're digging yourself further and further into a hole that you won't be able to get out of with your extensively flawed argument.

I'm open to a conversation, but your entire argument is "ur wrong cus i say u r wrong and rito knoes how 2 balance trist cus they r compani n ap trist shudnt exist nenewais"

Trust me when I say that I know my stuff, Chaos.

STessmer12Jul 21, 20141 votes

AP Trist is a problem... especially obvious with VoyBoy playing her in LCS too

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20141 votes

I'm glad she's been played in the LCS, but that doesn't mean she's a problem.

DreadPirateChrisJul 21, 20141 votes

VoyBoy was not playing AP Tristana, he was playing AD Tristana. Part of his success was because Shiphtur didn't bring any armor runes to lane since he was expecting an AP Trist. (Having both AD Trist and Jinx on the same team also meant that objectives simply melted when the team got near them...)

CerbearusJul 21, 20142 votes

AP Trist from my understanding already wrecks laning phase. Don't know why you would complain about a nerf. A 1.0 ratio on an ability with an already high base damage is just stupid, not to mention it (and her ult) is just point and click.

Also if you look at pretty much and other mage, their level 1 primary damage spell does around 60-80 damage, so a nerf to 80 on a point and click, 1.0, 700 range ability isn't much of a nerf.

Examples:

Cass Q 75 damage Annie Q 80 damage Akali Q (total) 80 damage Kass Q 80 damage

The only comparable spells I could find were Anivia's Q and E at 120 and 110, but Q is very very hard to hit in the first place (and you have to time it right to hit them twice) and E requires that they be chilled first (you must land a Q to chill that early).

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

Tristana's E also deals DoT, which means it's never dealing it's true damage and it can't be used as a nuking spell and it's cooldown is rather long, unlike Cass's, unlike Annie's, unlike Kass'. Kass' grants a shield, Annie's refunds most of her mana, Cass' can be used time and time again. Akali's is pretty much free and heals her for a ton of health.

Tristana's is on a large cooldown and reduces healing.

Gragas' ult used to have a huge base damage with insane AP scaling and they only just recently nerfed it, and it was AoE too.

Lucian's ult can have up to 330% AP scaling. with a base damage os 1980 if he lands every shot, which isn't too difficult.

Malzahar's ult has a 130% AP scaling ratio with a 550 base (Tristana's base is only 500), which is almost as powerful as Tristana's R, but he can hold them in place to deal a ton more damage with his W. For that matter, all his spells have an 80% AP scaling except his ult, which is crazy since they all have high base damage as well.

Morgana's ult deals 650 flat and has a 140% AP scaling, and it hits everyone, and then STUNS them, and if she hits a binding she deals 300 flat with 90% scaling and snares you for three seconds, not to mention if you're forced to sit in Tormented Soil, it deals 600 + 165 AP scaling.

In regards to level 1 spells, most champions have more than one that can be used safely to hit someone. Tristana does not. Tristana has her jump which can easily kill her and actually deals less damage than the normal 80, and she has her E with twice the cooldown time of everybody else's spells. Is Riot going to reduce the cooldown on it? I would be OK with that. Is RIot going to not compensate at all? Not OK.

There are champions who are just as strong or stronger than AP Trist in regards to AP scaling ratios. These champions are also generally more useful than Tristana her only job is to act as an AP assassin and eliminate one target before being semi-useless due to her major damage being down and only being able to Auto-attack and jump for a good 10-12 seconds until her E comes back (cooldown reduction brings it down from 16 seconds)

CerbearusJul 21, 20141 votes

You do raise some good points, long CD, DoT, only utility is the GW. I can't see an AP ratio increase hurting at all seeing as how lategame is where she struggles anyway. I do think the funniest thing is getting hit by her combo to live, then seeing your health drop by the hundreds for several seconds afterward and you die. Not a lot of champions have that cool feeling of delayed kills besides Trist and Zilean (Twitch got nerfed so much you basically regen faster than the DoT) Also maybe consider adding those things to your original post to avoid further downvotes.

SnowFallJul 21, 20141 votes

ap tris players unite! strike the unjust nerfs!

SnowFallJul 21, 20141 votes

Chickenwrap, she also gets her jump slow nerfed, do you think it would be impossible to kill enemy while being pre lvl 10 with jungler gank because slow is just that short?

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20141 votes

I'd say it's more of a buff TBH. lower at shorter levels and higher at max level, slowing for more than it does already, IIRC.

It's not impossible to kill an enemy off a jungle gank just because your slow is slightly shorter. if Sivir can do it without a slow, you can too.

JinembaJul 21, 20141 votes

Trist needs the nerf, if anything they should also nerf her AP on top of that. The problem with Tristana is that when she is built as an ADC she is one of the strongest ADC's fully built. And when she is built AP she can also be one of the strongest AP burst champs.

She has everything you want from an ADC AND from a Mid Laner. She has the Burst, she has the damage over time, she has the cooldown resets, she has to auto target skills that nuke. She has the attack speed buffs, the enormous auto attack range, the ability to jump very far to safety and she has a disengage nuke ultimate. That is just way too much mobility, buffs, range, burst, DPS, AoE Wave Clear, and Utility for someone who is supposed to have some risk involved.

ChickenWrapJul 21, 20142 votes

But unlike most midlaners, when her skills are down, the only spell she has that can deal damage puts her in an extremely bad position. It's like if only kat's shunpo reset after getting a kill and she'd have to wait 7 seconds before she can use spells again or she dies. So she just sits there and pretends to help. Plus, if she uses her E to take out a Banshee, they can just walk away knowing that Trist won't be able to kill them with her other damage nine times out of ten. Plus you can still heal off her damage after she leaves you alone after her burst. Or an ally can shield or grant you other health and save your life. Such are the woes of relying on a DoT to net you kills.

Tristana doesn't have real mobility. Every spell in the game stops her jump and if she wants fast waveclear, she has to use that jump, meaning anyone can pretty much kill her with no problem for the next 13 seconds.

DreadPirateChrisJul 21, 20141 votes

You make it sound like she has all that at once. You can't be AP Trist -and- AD Trist at the same time... you either have an ult that nukes for the kill (as AP Trist) or you have a knockback ult with so-so damage (as AD Trist). You either have burst (as AP Trist) or you have great AA range and DPS (as AD Trist). (You still technically -have- AA range as AP Trist, but it's not doing any damage. Hanging around in AA range firing a pea-shooter is just making a target of yourself.) She has a flexible kit, but you can't actually have it all in the same game.