How do you counter Thornmail as an ADC?

annador3·5/20/2015, 3:59:27 PM·1 votes·2,087 views

It's been awhile since I've encountered this in a normal, but thornmail pops up a lot in aram, and it's always frustrating to be constantly killing yourself faster. My cardboard 7 is showing, but do you try to stack magic resist against it? Do you just try to out lifesteal it? This usually happens when our team gets 3 adcs on our team, and they have a few tanks, so there's not much options other than attacking anyways it seems. Any help understanding would be appreciated..

18 Comments

TeemoJenkins5/20/2015, 4:05:37 PM9 votes

Life Steal and Armor Pen so you're dealing more direct damage.

junglerboy165/20/2015, 4:09:40 PM5 votes

3 basic stats: Magic resist to reduce the damage you take from Thornmail's passive directly, lifesteal to heal through the rest of the damage, and armor pen to allow you to deal more damage to lifesteal more efficiently and kill the tank quicker. In terms of actual items, the best are: item 3140 / item 3139 , item 3072 / item 3153 , and item 3035

The Blue Rajah5/20/2015, 6:36:39 PM3 votes

Wit's End can also be good. The on hit damage is magic, so it'll both ignore their armor and not get reflected, and the MR will reduce the damage you take from thornmail.

Duke Anax5/20/2015, 9:59:25 PM3 votes

There is a series of actions you can take when you have trouble with thornmail or even just armor in general, some have been named throughout theis thread, but let me try to make a complete list:

Get Help Thornmail only works against Physical Auto Attacks, so any kind of Mage or even an ADCaster wil have an easier time than you, though the later may still struggle with the armor itself.

Avoid stats that increase Thornmail damage AD, AS and Critical Strike all increase Thornmail's damage the same way they increase yours, so they gain you absolutely nothing. (though may still be viable to deal with the rest of the team if you have otherwise enough to deal with the thornmail)

Reduce Thornmail Damage Any form of MR will reduce the Damage and will also help you against enemy Mages. are nice ADC option among the more common

Get your health back Increase your lifesteal. is an unusual choice here, but it makes you harder to kill and cdr gives you more ability damage. Also the obvious and don't forget

Get more Health make yourself last longer so the other dies first. are good choices here.

Increase your damage without increasing Thornmail Thornmail returns incomming damage, so Penetration does nothing for it, but lets you get more damage through.

Switch to Magic damage Magic damage is unaffected by Thornmail so and for some ADC even are options, also

Not all of these options are right for everyone at all time, but it's important to have them in mind.

M4nTiCoR35/20/2015, 4:13:35 PM2 votes

The 2 counters to Thronmail have always been Lifesteal and Magic Resistance.

Any offensive items that Add either of those traits will allow you to negate the sting of most Thronmail wearers. Also some form of AR Penetration can help too, but to a lesser extent unless the enemy in question is well above 150 or greater.

T RexHasTinyArms5/22/2015, 5:49:20 PM2 votes

So one person mentioned the real answer. Get help.

It depends on the situation, and I suppose the threads I have seen on it are probably not the right numbers if you're playing aram, but if you are an ADC attacking a tank w/ thornmail and gromp buff (not sure how easy it is to out do w/ out gromp), then most 4 item ADCs will kill themselves before killing the tank. The problem is thornmail deals damage back to you = to what you do before their armor is accounted for, and life steal only affects what you actually do as damage. I think most of those calcs assume that the ADC doesn't have a major MR item though, so I'd go w/ MR and armor pen and lifesteal to a lesser amount since if you aren't doing enough damage or are taking too much damage, the lifesteal doesn't help much anyway.

L33K Senpai5/20/2015, 4:12:17 PM2 votes

Thornmail is a tricky item to go against as an ADC - but the best way to minimize damage taken from Thornmail is the use of Armor penetration items and high life steal items.

Using Life Steal is obvious; you recover a portion of your health vs shooting a thornmailed enemy. item 3072 item 3153 item 3508 Using Armor Penetration allows for direction damage output - so you're not losing too much health in comparison to the damage you're dealing. item 3035 item 3142 item 3071

MattAkhavan5/21/2015, 9:17:40 PM1 votes

lifesteal / health

Jonus Farstrider5/23/2015, 3:00:45 AM1 votes

Well, there's one really, REALLY simple answer. Thornmail goes against AA only, so the best thing to do is to hit them with abilities and to use your AA on non thornmail targets to build your speed (jax) or frost stacks (Ashe) or to life steal back your health (and then turn back onto the thornmail guys once you're healthy again.) Past that, if you have to duel someone with thornmail, use as many abilities as you can, and combo it with MR, life steal, and magic damage. Armor pen is nice, if you can manage the costs with the other items.

Sohleks5/20/2015, 5:39:37 PM1 votes

item 3035 item 3153 or item 3072

colesy5/20/2015, 5:53:32 PM1 votes

life steal and magic resist

i mean bloodthirster and banshee are pretty much core adc items so it's np

7ha7guy7775/20/2015, 6:41:00 PM1 votes

item 3153 is probably the best lifesteal option since the changes that allow you to lifesteal off of the % hp damage. LW would help you do more damage since the damage you take is 30% of the pre-mitigation damage. Spirit Visage should be the best MR option since it also increases your lifesteal and health regen. Elixir of wrath might even be useful if you're an adc that spams abilities. The fact that a 2200 gold item requires you to buy 3+ items to counter it is a little crazy though

Dataless5/20/2015, 7:44:13 PM1 votes

double lifesteal + some MR will prevent your from getting killed by reflection damage.

Byakuya Kuchiki5/20/2015, 9:51:04 PM1 votes

get a bork bt lw scimitar and a black cleaver and then you just might not take any damage from it, thats assuming youre playing draven so you can lifesteal off 1500 damage autos instead of 900 otherwise youre fucked and its gonna outdamage you no matter what just buy the items and hope and pray you crit a shit ton

LordForrest5/21/2015, 3:48:50 AM1 votes

Wow, only two people mentioned Wit's End. Like, Really? That item is really useful against Thornmail as an AutoAttack reliant champ. First it gives mr and then more by stacking it, second it lowers their mr too which increase magic damage from everybody on your team inculding you because wit's end also comes with 42 on-hit magic damage. Plus the attack speed is an obvious boon. Granted you still need High Lifesteal and Armour Pen helps alot, but that can be a effective and fairly cheap stop-gap item to pickup.