Comparing relative value

Absolut Garen·Aug 18, 2019·4 votes·1,480 views

Is a lvl 1 Volibear really the equivalent of a lvl 2 Warwick? Does a lvl 1 Swain beat a lvl 3 Elise? (He seems to...)

Is the gold sale value of what I have on the board a useful measure? (Besides trait bonuses, of course.)

22 Comments

Summoner 934Aug 18, 20194 votes

To give you the short answer, if there wasnt a clear improvement from one tier to the next people would do everything possible to stay low level and hyper roll for 3 star tier 1 champs. Late game there are a number of instances where Ill dump 3 star tier 1/2 champs for 2 star tier 4s and if its a 2 star tier 5 or keeping a 3 star tier 1/2 its a no brainer.

RatpieAug 18, 20194 votes

Um, sort of. It matters on the champ, if all lvl 1 champs were even of equal value, or any other level were balanced then it might make more sense. But not all top champs are even comparable. Jinx and Kindred are both 4, but Jinx is so much stronger atm. Katarina is a lvl 3 assassin, but pyke is so much better at a lvl 2. I would take almost any lvl 1 over a Rek. Lulu is a level 2, but is one of the best CC champs in this mode. So whatever. Half of it makes no sense.

Doctor ShabbosAug 22, 20194 votes

All right...

Suppose that I have two Gnar on the field (this makes sense. If I already have Shapeshifter buff, I'm better off putting a second Gnar into a new space than... a lvl 2 Elise, for example). Now another Gnar comes up in the store. Of course, I'll buy it, but I must fill the vacated spot with somebody worth 3g or more, or else my team is effectively weaker...

Two lvl 1 Warwicks do NOT beat one lvl 2 Warwick. But Two lvl 1 Gnar DO beat one lvl 2 Gnar.

(All other things being equal in this hypothetical, of course.)

(I'll fill that empty slot with Veigar for the Yordle buff with LuLu, or else maybe it's a good time to get Morgana back onto the board...)

RagsalotAug 18, 20191 votes

To answer your question in the context of how you asked it; no. A team with Sej, Akali, Sol, Gnar, Draven, and Leona (All 4g champs with 0 traits in common) isn't gonna do shit because it's the trait bonuses that add context to the champs. A team of noble+knights (most of which are 2g or less) would walk all over that team, while being worth less than half from a strictly-gold perspective.

As a champ's price goes up, so does its ability to jack up the enemy team, assuming that it's using those passive traits to empower it.

Absolut GarenAug 18, 20194 votes

Yes, obviously, this is besides trait bonuses. That's why I gave examples of champions who would replace each other in a build.

And, also, obviously, from patch to patch, champions within the same Tier are relatively stronger or weaker.

Nidalee is consistently pretty strong for a $1 champ. She can carry early game. She probably can't carry the whole game unless lvl 3 and item stacked. BUT would a lvl 3 Nidalee beat a lvl 1 Swain?

Elise was a disappointing $2 champ, and even buffed, she's still no great shakes as a $1 champ. There's no item set that I can put on Elise that will make her the match of a lvl 1 Swain with appropriate items.

I'm trying to compare champions of the same gold sale value, of the same trait. It actually does seem that the lvl 1 Volibear is better in most cases, than the lvl 2 Warwick... Maybe partly because Wild as a trait kind of underperforms lately... I figured that Brawlers would be pretty easy to compare, since their defining trait is health which is pretty clear to measure...

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 23, 20191 votes

BUT would a lvl 3 Nidalee beat a lvl 1 Swain?

Level 1 swain dies 60% of the time before he gets to transform so yes

It's about buy value and not sell value btw

Level 1 swain costs 5g, level 3 Nidalee costs 9g (probably more due to rerolls)

You're underestimating level 3 Elise btw, I'm quite sure she beats level 1 Swain

I figured that Brawlers would be pretty easy to compare, since their defining trait is health which is pretty clear to measure...

Level 2 WW has more HP than Level 1 Volibear

Doctor ShabbosAug 24, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Level 1 swain dies 60% of the time before he gets to transform so yes

It's about buy value and not sell value btw

Level 1 swain costs 5g, level 3 Nidalee costs 9g (probably more due to rerolls)

You're underestimating level 3 Elise btw, I'm quite sure she beats level 1 Swain

Level 2 WW has more HP than Level 1 Volibear

My lvl 1 Swain almost never dies early. usually last on the board. I put them in the back. And also, I generally delay equipping my items until I have my carries. Swain will have a PD, Dragon Claw, and Spear, if I can help it...

Also, I just disagree = it IS about sell value. See my example with the 2 Gnars... 2 Bronze Gnars really will beat 1 Silver Gnar.

My idea is that a useful, if situational, index could be adding up the sell value of all of the champs on the board at any moment. useful for making decisions about who to put on, and what is required, and which side is likely to win. Of course, traits will affect this. there is probably a power budget for traits according to how many unique members are required to activate that ALSO gives a gold value that can be included in this calculation. Haven't completely worked it out yet. Might be something like: add $1 for each trait bonus that a champion contributes... not sure...

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 24, 20191 votes

2 bronze Gnars might beat a silver Gnar in a 1v1 but Gnar is tanky so hes sort of an exception

On the other hand, I have had 2 level 1 Jinxes on my team vs the level 2 Jinx, and with 2 level 1 Jinxes, they both die to a Karthus ult, whereas the Level 2 Jinx will survive the Karthus ult (or Chogath or other ult) and continue fighting (using BT to regain HP)

Maybe in a 2v1, the 2 level 1 Jinxes win, but in terms of being useful on a team and not getting killed before they can do anything, the level 2 Jinx definitely wins.

Level 1 champs are at a big disadvantage in that any type of CC or nuke is likely to kill them, reducing the chances that they can be impactful.

Also keep in mind that you likely won't have enough items to equip 2 of the same champ, so the 2nd tier 1 is just wasting a space by providing no extra synergy or anything

Absolut GarenAug 19, 20194 votes

{quoted}

To answer your question in the context of how you asked it; no. A team with Sej, Akali, Sol, Gnar, Draven, and Leona (All 4g champs with 0 traits in common) isn't gonna do shit because it's the trait bonuses that add context to the champs. A team of noble+knights (most of which are 2g or less) would walk all over that team, while being worth less than half from a strictly-gold perspective.

As a champ's price goes up, so does its ability to jack up the enemy team, assuming that it's using those passive traits to empower it.

Also, you kind of missed the thrust of my question. My question was related to whether the lvl sale price produced equalities. I know how to gage Tiers and Traits. All things being equal: is a lvl 3 $1 champ the equivalent of the lvl 2 $3 champ (both sell for $5)? Is the lvl 2 $1 champ the equivalent of the lvl 1 $3 champ (both sell for $3)?

OR maybe when the numbers are equivalent, then levels DO matter? Maybe the lvl 2 Warwick is actually better than the lvl 1 Volibear, because he is, after all, lvl 2.

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 22, 20192 votes

Level 2 WW is better than Level 1 Volibear in almost 95% of situations unless you're running glacials.

Same with most level 2 1 cost champs vs most level 1 3 cost champs or even 4 cost

The only reason to run a 1 star of anything that's not a legendary is for a synergy

Doctor ShabbosAug 23, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Level 2 WW is better than Level 1 Volibear in almost 95% of situations unless you're running glacials.

Same with most level 2 1 cost champs vs most level 1 3 cost champs or even 4 cost

The only reason to run a 1 star of anything that's not a legendary is for a synergy

Yeah, it does seem like the lvl 2 WW beats the lvl 1 Voli.

Two lvl 1 Lulu vs One lvl 2 Lulu is a toss-up, I guess.

And I seen already that 2x lvl 1 Gnar beats 1x lvl 2 Gnar. (But you can fill the vacancy with something good, so you should still win at that point...)

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 22, 20192 votes

On the other hand, if you get a level 3 Swain and a rag tag team of other level 2 5 cost champions that have no synergy you might beat an actual team with synergies.

3 star Swain 2 star Yasuo Karthus Kayle Anivia Kennen Draven AurelionSol

that team could potentially wreck

Doctor ShabbosAug 23, 20194 votes

{quoted}

On the other hand, if you get a level 3 Swain and a rag tag team of other level 2 5 cost champions that have no synergy you might beat an actual team with synergies.

3 star 2 star

that team could potentially wreck

You won't get a Gold Swain. There's only 10 Swain in the whole game. Lucky to get a Silver Swain. I never seen a Gold T5 EVER.

The Gold T3 SHOULD = the Silver T5. The GOLD Shyvana SHOULD beat the SIlver Aurelion Sol.

I have gotten SIlver Swains and Yasuo etc...

The Team that you assembled, would need good itemization, since you have only a few bonuses... (Imperial, Exile, Ninja)

Bonuses are indirectly buffed, now that Hextech is a thing...

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 23, 20191 votes

I never seen a Gold T5 EVER.

I played against a gold Karthus back in the old patch when Karthus was OP

I had 10 champions (level 9+FON, all noble buffed) he had 7 (Void brawler sorcs I think, was a while ago)

He won. and I was thinking, I had 10 noble buffs with fully stacked Draven carry, how could I lose to someone who has less champs than me

The Team that you assembled, would need good itemization, since you have only a few bonuses... (Imperial, Exile, Ninja)

Probably just Shojins on Kayle and Karthus and Hextech Gunblade on Swain are core

the rest is whatever item drops you get

The swain really drains an entire team

The Gold T3 SHOULD = the Silver T5. The GOLD Shyvana SHOULD beat the SIlver Aurelion Sol.

You can't really say that just because there are different champs. A transformed Silver Shyvana can probably beat a Silver Asol in a 1v1 despite Asol costing more.

For example, Brand is a rather shitty 4 cost champ and Id rather have a Kennen if I'm going elementals

Doctor ShabbosAug 24, 20194 votes

[{quote You can't really say that just because there are different champs. A transformed Silver Shyvana can probably beat a Silver Asol in a 1v1 despite Asol costing more.

For example, Brand is a rather shitty 4 cost champ and Id rather have a Kennen if I'm going elementals

This is why I said SHOULD. Gold T3 = $7; Silver $T5 = $7. As you pointed out, all else being equal, the higher lvl will still give an edge (lvl2 WW > lvl1 Voli) so Gold Shyv may beat Silver Swain.

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 23, 20191 votes

I think buy value rather than sell value is more important.

A level 3 Nidalee costs 9g. A level 1 MF costs 5g.

The level 3 Nidalee is almost always better

Even Elise, one of the worst champs, is better at level 3 than a level 1 MF

Doctor ShabbosAug 24, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I think buy value rather than sell value is more important.

A level 3 Nidalee costs 9g. A level 1 MF costs 5g.

The level 3 Nidalee is almost always better

Even Elise, one of the worst champs, is better at level 3 than a level 1 MF

I'm noticing that the Gold WW that COSTS $9 is barely even worth $5. Sorry, you're just wrong about the buy value. The value on the champ IS the value. And that is the sell value. The gold spent in building is "lost". (But it saved you HP meanwhile, so it's worth.)

Haha. I think that I understand.

The reason why you believe that the Gold T1 out performs is that you equip early.

Compare the two champions unequipped, but with all buffs (or at least most buffs) and I believe that you will see things more as I do.

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 24, 20191 votes

I don't equip early actually.

What I'm saying is that in terms of a 1v1 (or 1v2 in this case) the Gold WW may be worth less than 2 Silver WW

but in terms of actually being useful to a team it's different because you probably won't want to equip 2 Silver WW since the 2nd WW gives no extra synergy and takes up 1 champ slot that could be used for a champ that does give a synergy

Even if it's a Gold Elise vs a Bronze Swain and they both only take up 1 spot

Gold Elise has 1800 hp and 97 DPS without items

Bronze Swain has 850 hp and 42 DPS without items

The swain might have a better abilities but I don't think it's enough to overcome the raw stats the elise has over the t1 swain

Absolut GarenAug 24, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I don't equip early actually.

What I'm saying is that in terms of a 1v1 (or 1v2 in this case) the Gold WW may be worth less than 2 Silver WW

but in terms of actually being useful to a team it's different because you probably won't want to equip 2 Silver WW since the 2nd WW gives no extra synergy and takes up 1 champ slot that could be used for a champ that does give a synergy

Even if it's a Gold Elise vs a Bronze Swain and they both only take up 1 spot

Gold Elise has 1800 hp and 97 DPS without items

Bronze Swain has 850 hp and 42 DPS without items

The swain might have a better abilities but I don't think it's enough to overcome the raw stats the elise has over the t1 swain

I play these particular champions often enough to know how to evaluate them. Elise is a bit better than she was, but I've learned this lesson more than once. Swap her out (even Gold) for Swain as soon as he is acquired. (Unless I have an extra spot, FoN, or no Morgana for synergy.)

Additionally, I'm aware of the equippage issue in having duplicate champions on the board. Even UNEQUIPPED the extra Gnar or Swain outperforms.

The other option (especially where the second is gained from carousel with an item), is to give both Gnar an item, or even fully Equip both of them, since when the third Gnar is obtained they will combine, and any extra items will then become available for the next carry in line.

Doctor ShabbosAug 24, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I think buy value rather than sell value is more important.

A level 3 Nidalee costs 9g. A level 1 MF costs 5g.

The level 3 Nidalee is almost always better

Even Elise, one of the worst champs, is better at level 3 than a level 1 MF

Happens to be that Nidalee is one of the better-performing T1. Partly because, you can actually stack her and she does something. Stacking Elise is generally pointless. Stacking WW - maybe with tank items like red buff and frozen heart. Even Titanic is kind of wasted, because the Silver Voli still has more HP...

Even so... Bronze Gnar beats Silver Nidalee, both naked.