Is Elise sleeper OP?

zepdrix·Jul 13, 2019·2 votes·1,636 views

PBE update has her scheduled to become a 1 cost unit. She seems pretty strong at 2 cost and not everyone has caught onto it yet.

I can't even count how many times I've been destroyed by early Varus + Elise start. And it's not all due to the Varus (yes I know, he's rather strong). It's due to the mana burn provided by demons.

I'm really surprised at how this mechanic works. It's like Kassadin on steroids: It doesn't take a chunk of mana away but instead ALL of it.

Does no one else see a problem with demon?

I think Elise is going to quickly become the best 1 cost unit.

21 Comments

Judah the HammerJul 13, 20194 votes

Elise is weak, even after her buff.

Z3SIeeperJul 14, 20192 votes

She's already worse than most 1 cost units, so it makes sense to make her a 1 cost unit.

After this change she can also be used to hard punish people who intentionally lose for carousel first picks via spiderlings adding 2 health damage each.

VecturnJul 13, 20192 votes

She's an extra body with more bodies to increase distraction on the board. More so if you can get the shapeshifter perk going. I wouldn't throw more than one item on her.

BLACK REALM GODJul 14, 20192 votes

if she plays against a team of casters then she can be strong. otherwise she's a waste of space because she can't tank or blow up large teams.

we'll see though. there are some interesting new combos coming out of the update.

zepdrixJul 14, 20191 votes

I find her really strong against Rangers or Draven comp. Creating 3 extra targets is so much extra time they have to spend attacking useless targets.

"She can't tank" I think that's a problem with all shapeshifters, not just Elise. They all fail as a front liner (since they need time to transform).

Ya the gunslingers look pretty sick with the new update. XD

ChaosReynJul 14, 20191 votes

8.3k with double Shiv/Blademaster...

ChaosReynJul 14, 20192 votes

On her own, she's really not worth much. Even investing into her (rageblade/PD/Claw) she dies pretty quickly and doesn't really do much on her own, even after she shapeshifts.

But here's where you're right: In the earliest stages of the game, if you get ranger/demon comp (varus, elise, vayne) then when she summons her spiderlings, you're actually dealing more player damage in the early game. So...she could be seen as sort of a cheesy punish to people trying to econ or sandbag from the very beginning, or a "noob killer" who thrashes people that cant get anything going for them at the early stages of the game. But I wouldn't keep her past wolves for sure. I would say krugs, but if you have her upgraded to Lv2, you can keep her to wolves. Past then, even fully leveled, she's dead weight.

zepdrixJul 14, 20191 votes

I agree, she's an early game character.

With her cost reduction I can see her becoming an extremely powerful early game champion due to the fact that her level 2 will sell for full value.

ChaosReynJul 14, 20191 votes

and I feel like that's a perfect place for her. Plus, it evens out the demon class by giving them an early demon choice. Knights and even nobles have THREE 1-cost champs, and you couldn't start demons without a minimum of 4 gold...ruling out the carousel, of course.

I think with these changes, they needed to leave the early game demon bonus alone, and simply buff the later bonuses, but that's me being nitpicky before I can even test it just cause Toast says they're OP now. :P

PorglitJul 13, 20191 votes

I've found her to be wretchedly awful. I built teams around here and stacked her with items early, and she still doesn't poorly compared to and against other carries.

The biggest issue is that she scales poorly on her own, because her spiders act as body shields. That's about the only role I've found her good for.

UnstoppableMaybeJul 14, 20191 votes

Shyvana Elise Shyvana seems weaker than Elise though, and she costs 3 gold, plus I often seem to kill Shyvana easier than Elise.

hrooza dota Jul 14, 20191 votes

shyvana is mostly used for dragon synergy, and imo she is better carry then elise if you give both items [tried both and shyv at least did something]

UnstoppableMaybeJul 14, 20191 votes

I come in 2nd place a lot with Elise, whereas most teams I face using Shyvana are not making it passed 3rd or 5th. The only time I see a successful Shyvana of course is with Asol, but without Asol, it seems Shyvana is more useless than Elise depending on the items you use. I have yet to lose to a Shyvana without Asol, while using an Elise. However, I also haven't tried Shyvana much because she dies quick in my opinion to, with weak damage. Perhaps I should try Shyvana more to really know, but I haven't seen better yet to entice doing so.

hrooza dota Jul 14, 20191 votes

never seen elise do anything on her own other then some yt clips tbh, i saw some carry shyv and done some with her and come close to first with it.

nobody tries to build shyv/elise because both are more effective at being synergy giver and thats it tbh

UnstoppableMaybeJul 14, 20191 votes

Yeah true, both are pretty squishy, but I find Elise still does me better, especially since she gets the Demon Bonus, and Shyv with Dragon Bonus doesn't really do anything against Lucian, Garen, Vayne, Draven, or anyone else who is not Sorcery or using magical based spells...plus when Elise shapeshifts, the other duplications help her take ults for others, including directing attacks away from the other champions while they buildup their mana. So to me, Elise can be better than Shyvana in these ways.

You are correct though, that they both are weak. Nidalee, Swain, and Gnar are definitely the best of the group I think.

hrooza dota Jul 14, 20191 votes

i have to say tho, elise buffs will make her pretty good champion.

ChaosReynJul 14, 20191 votes

I mean, with Shyvanna, if you get RFC, Rageblade, PD, she's actually quite ridiculous. after she transforms, her ranged dragonbreath chunks her targets like crazy, and RFC/PD gives you the safety to make sure you transform. After that, really all you need to do is watch her literally melt people like a Draven.

And with dragon synergy, there's even less that can stop her.

She has carry potential...unlike Elise.

Z3SIeeperJul 14, 20191 votes

She's similar to Nidalee, gotta put a RFC on her if you really want Shyv to do something. Otherwise she just dies before transforming or gets mana-burned by demons/kass.

Sire HippingtonJul 14, 20191 votes

Well, with demons she is strong as she's one of the few actuall frontlines for them, and her spiderlings can mana burn aswell. But other than that, she's still pretty weak, and what causes you to win is probably more that Varus. Varus is pretty OP for tier 2, his skill does more damage than aurelions for less mana with higher AA dps and he has a strong origin/class combo and can scale wuith mage and dps items alike. Also, since the buffs, demons are also pretty strong and totally dumposter all non AA reliant comps, especially knights and sorcs. That manaburn is just so devastateing for many setups. But again, elise withotu demons is still shit tier, her base stats are so horrible that her lifesteal is pointless, she's just a meatshield that can easily proc the manaburn from demons.

Imo demons should get changed completely, manaburn should not be that broadly aviable, it just negates all cast dependent comps and feels shit to go up against, it's like glacial with more damage and a higher proc chance if you don't have AA only carries.

UnstoppableMaybeJul 14, 20191 votes

I can agree that Demon can be difficult to counter, but Demon Class Comp Bonus is perfect doing Mana Burn, as it's a great counter Class Type. However, I do feel it can use a nerf as long as it's effective enough still.

I disagree that it should not exist, and I doubt you can claim a nerf to be unfair right? As Demon is a great counter right now against Glacial's.

Z3SIeeperJul 14, 20191 votes

It's actually being buffed, Demons are underperforming right now.

They're gaining 200%/300% mana burn true damage at (4)/(6).