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It's time to acknowledge that Mark is an unhealthy novelty

Mandaari··35 votes·5,382 views

Every prediction that I've presented about this spell has come true. I'm sick of seeing it and I'm sick of people thinking that it's helping balance. It's not.

All that Mark does for most melees is make it feel like you can do more by allowing you to engage from farther away than you deserve to. In reality you're just engaging to your death, just like before. Meanwhile, all of the poke heavy champions still have insanely high winrates and tanks that already had high win rates moved even higher. Galio is still sitting at 65%. So are Heimer and Sona. Sure, some oppressive champions' win rates went down slightly, but they just swapped places with some other oppressive champions. And yes, some weak champions' win rates went up slightly, but not much. I believe the highest someone went up was Udyr from ~40% to ~42%. Take a look at the lowest winrate champions on HA for the last week and tell me that mobility was their problem.

I don't want to see 60%+ win rate anyone, but snowball was not the way to go about it. ARAM is in a worse state than before snowball was added. Riot, come talk about some better ways to go about balancing ARAM.

http://i.imgur.com/IMIDINS.png

http://i.imgur.com/36HWs7t.png

The fact that Riot won't even respond to this is sad. If they really cared about balancing ARAM Mark would have been long gone.

At the very least you owe us your data. Give us the the ARAM win rates for everyone through March. Then let's have an objective comparison of how much of a shitstorm Mark is.

86 Comments

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

This is what people don't seem to understand. We don't dislike it for no reason, it hasn't performed the job it actually was meant to perform.

IllllllIIIIlllll5 votes

I personally don't like it because the idea seems very contrived and adds unnecessary complexity to the game. ARAM is a place to have fun anyways; balance doesn't really matter.

Mandaari14 votes

All games are made for fun. Being unbalanced isn't fun.

Rhlax1 votes

When the champion select is based on chance, it will never be balanced.

Klatn Yelox1 votes

No, its always balanced. Until people fix the chances by having ONLY ARAM good champs.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I still don't know why people dislike it. It didn't improve much, but it also didn't make things worse while atleast beeing fun to use.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

The win rates of poke and heal champs have gone up. You can find it fun but it has made things worse.

Sire Hippington1 votes

las time i checked befor the mark, janna and sona were nearly at 70%... And from my experince in arams, melees do slightly better and mostly are far more fun, so it is an improvement.

The problem is that melee comps are harder to execute in aram, if you don't all go in coordinated, you will just get focused down 1 by 1, and mark dash also offers the lee-syndrom. I see many people simply missuse it and going into their death just like bad lees.

There are no stattisiks for different mmrs in aram, but i'm sure that the winrates look a** bit **different at my mmr. Poke+kit still has a clear advantage, but it's not as worse in my games as the overall stattistics seem.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

http://www.lolking.net/champions/sona&region=all&map=ha&queue=normal#statistics

http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna&region=all&map=ha&queue=normal#statistics

The AP items overhaul hurt janna on july 7th, but otherwise their winrates are looking pretty flat.

Certainly mark is being misused like a bad lee sin, but unfortunately we don't have any ranked arams so....

Sire Hippington2 votes

the winrates on LoLking only reach back to 6/6/2015, mark was added on 4/30/2015, so you unfortunately can't compare the winrates befor and after mark/dash that way....

Mandaari1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rdp3JhX4-markdash-feedback-from-a-2600-aram-player

I captured with bottom 15 win rates from before and after Mark's release and posted them there.

Sire Hippington1 votes

the problem here is that we just see the bottom 15, and as you wrote in that post yourself, most of them either have problems on all maps or specific other problems for HA and thus don't really profit from Mark/dash(and most also have a pretty high skillcap for teamfights)

I think a lot midrange winrate champs did profit a bit from mark and even if it does not much balane wise, it gives you a much better feeling playing them. Champions like udyr, garen, daruis or scarner really profit from mark/dash. And while i right now have no data to proof my claim, i think poke and kite champs have gone a bit down since mark/dash. The point is, it'S only a bit, they are definitly still dominant, as loosing 2% winrate when your ~5% above the rest means you still stay above the rest, but the gap got slightly smaller. And hard engage champs did rise to be onpair with poke, so we have now a even playground between poke and hard engage, rather than poke alone on the throne. Now it's mostly skirmishing/splitpush/map-presence that need help in aram, rather than everyone that can't really harras from affar.

So i still do think that adding mark/dash was a good thing, it was a small step into the right direction. It's just nowhere near a perfect solution for aram by any means, but that doesn't mean 'that Mark is an unhealthy novelty' just cause it isn't the messias of aram...

Mandaari1 votes

Unfortunately neither of us have data on that and I can't find an older source, including Riot's APIs =\ (Riot, this would be an awesome time to step in and at least give us that). The best I can offer, which is from memory, is that Udyr moved from about 40% to 42%. Udyr is one of the best examples of a champion that did actually need a gap closer, and it only moved that small amount. There are some champions that it helped, but it was not remotely worth the cost. And like you said, they feel better, but they don't really perform much better.

Now imagine if something like blasting smite was added to ARAM instead. Bad early games where you can't waveclear to save your life now aren't so one sided, and you can get to the lategame that you shine in.

BakugoBestBoy8 votes

ARAM is impossible to balance. Considering the only option is to constantly 5v5, 90% of the game's outcome is decided at champ select (the other 10% is decided upon whether or not your whole team connects to the game xD). SR has multiple strategies that allows for all champions to thrive in some form, but that simply doesn't exist in ARAM. So either you limit the champion pool or make it less random. Neither of which is good for a game mode called "ALL RANDOM all mid".

The only thing you can do is just accept these realities and make the most of a 1 sided match up. I played 5 ARAMs yesterday and 4 of the 5 were decided at champ select. 2 easy wins, 2 easy losses and 1 actual game where teams were even and we came out on top. That was a good day in ARAM. I've had streaks of 5-6 bad team comps in a row and just had to stop for the day, but it's nothing that stops me from coming back and playing more.

So while I get where you're coming from, and agree snowball did nothing to fix ARAM, it also didn't ruin anything that was functioning super well in the first place.

Mandaari5 votes

Anybody that truly believes this isn't putting the effort in to learning the mode. Champion select obviously influences the game, but to say it's decided or even remotely close to 90% is blatant hyperbole.

I'm finishing up leveling a second account right now (no, neither are ARAM smurfs) and I play ARAMs on my smurf every so often. It's depressing how people that have no idea what they're doing treat ARAMs. They give up when they have a clear win condition. They make mechanical mistakes. They ignore obvious build paths. They straight up AFK.

You want to do that crap? Fine. But doing that crap and wanting to be balanced around is where I draw the line.

No snowball was not balanced, but with snowball is worse. Should snowball be removed? Yes. But there needs to be follow up changes too.

BakugoBestBoy2 votes

I play mostly ARAM. So I'm well aware that most people don't get what the hell to do if they don't roll the Varus Sona Lux Ezreal Alistar comp. And after reading your reply a second and third time, the only disagreement we have is the very first point, (Which I still contest is wrong) and the rest is you complaining about noobs on your team while leveling an account. So I don't really know what we're arguing about.

Mandaari1 votes

My point wasn't to complain, but rather to point out that people demonstrate obvious mistakes and then assume that ARAM can't be balanced.

BakugoBestBoy1 votes

Ok. New thought. Dash is removed. Flash now has a map specific cooldown of only 120 seconds. It gives champions like Galio a chance to engage more than once every 5 minutes but without the devestating range advantage. He can still make plays but your entire team doesn't get rocked every time his ult is up unless you legitimately misposition. Also he isn't screwed waiting around 5 minutes at a time to be useful as anything but waveclear.

Mandaari1 votes

Why propose something to help Galio? He already had a very high winrate before he had an easy gap closer. He's strong on ARAM without his ult, and there are plenty of CDR options to take his ult down from 150/135/120 seconds (let's not use hyperbole). And again, Righteous Glory is very good on Galio if you really need an engage tool.

Minarde6 votes

It's an issue of playerbase expectations and differences in knowledge.

As with all of the alternate game modes, people generally aren't exposed to high-level play. It's arguably worst in ARAM because it's the game mode people most often link to "casual fun." And that's the problem. Casuals like the spell because "flying around like Lee Sin is fun," and it makes for Big Plays. Regulars like the spell because of the mistaken belief that poke is king in ARAM because melee can't engage. Only a tiny minority of players realize "maybe Mark/Dash actually doesn't solve the problem it was intended to address."

Mandaari4 votes

Exactly. Coincidentally Lee Sin is the 8th lowest win rate champion.

UPfreely6 votes

There's a reason I don't play aram anymore.

I Am Abømination6 votes

This cancerous spell needs to be removed from ARAM. Yes it helps some small percentage of champs who had poor engage, but mostly it's just OP now on all the champs who didn't need it.

qetzel4 votes

It fixed the problem that I had. As you said, it makes me feel I can do more.

That is what I didn't like about ARAM. I felt useless on those champions, which frustrated me. I am no longer as frustrated.

Mandaari3 votes

And what if there's a fix to the problem that both feels good and works well? If snowball was actually a good fix then you wouldn't be so frustrated.

qetzel3 votes

I am no longer as frustrated because of snowball. Thank you snowball.

Of course, everyone would like the problem to be fixed 100% but I don't think it is easy. snowball provides a nice solution.

AMYS GRAVE7 votes

but it isn't a solution, the champions who were frustrating to play against before are infuriating now.

sona snowball+ult entire team... there is a reason sona doesn't have that kind of mobility.

Volcaetis1 votes

Doesn't that argument work against Flash, too?

The only difference between Mark and Flash is that Mark has a shorter cooldown but is more limited in its application. Honestly, I think I prefer Mark over Flash.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

Yes it does, but flash is on all maps while mark limited to this one. You can prefer mark over flash, but that doesn't change the fact that it has exacerbated the imbalance they were trying to fix when they introduced it in the first place.

Lugg3 votes

It shouldn't do any damage. It should allow melee champions to get in melee range and that's it.

Mandaari19 votes

The damage isn't the issue. The issue is Annie or Galio or someone who doesn't need a massive gapcloser suddenly being on the minion wave next to you and getting an easy ult. For every melee champion that "needs a gap closer" there's someone like Annie that benefits so much more.

Lugg2 votes

The easy fix would be to only allow melee champs to take it.

Minarde7 votes

That only solves some of the abuse cases. Galio, Wukong, Sion, and so on wouldn't even notice the change. The main problem is that Mark/Dash was added to address the strength of poke champs by helping melee champs engage. Unfortunately, a lack of gapcloser isn't what's holding back melee champs (See: Tryn, Kass, Lee, and Kha compared to Sion, Maokai, and Taric). Mark/Dash is attempting to solve a problem that didn't really exist.

Sire Hippington3 votes

it partially helps, playing udyr or garren with mark/dash feels way better than without, even though you still have problems with poke-kite comps and hard engage that already was strong just got stronger. Mark/Dash was a small step, but nothing more.

Lugg3 votes

Uh no, the problem definitely existed for melee champs without any poke. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Minarde2 votes

You might have misunderstood me a bit. Melee champs, in general, definitely struggle against poke. However, a lack of a gapcloser is not why melee has difficulties. Lack of sustain, waveclear, or just tower pushing ability are much more relevant. Mark/Dash addresses the wrong, or at least comparatively minor, part of the problem.

Klatn Yelox2 votes

No. The problem melee champs have whether they have an engage or not is that its always engaging into 5-man team, and your team has at least a full second before they react to follow up.Unless you engage witH INSANE AOE CC you will be crushed first.

Mandaari1 votes

One of many problems, but yes, it's not lack of engage. It's that engaging in itself is a bad thing to do because it's more likely than not going to leave you worse off.

Saianna8 votes

Galio/Amummu/Alistar

They are melee and thanks to snowballs they can easily make dream-like combos.

Annie was just an example..

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Using it on Morgana or Ammumu is just unfair.

"It's okay, I didn't actually want to survive that teamfight without being CC'ed for the next year."

Sire Hippington3 votes

the problem is that it mostly helps champions that need a 1-time gapclose, champions like shy(who still has like 2 hours cd on her ult in HA) that want to stick to a target ar still scrwed, as there are 5 members ready to peel.

However, the biggest problem i see is that unless you have a massive cc like Gallios ult, or unless the resst of the team lands their snowballs the same time, you will simply die alone in 5 enemies as your team can't really followup in time. I think instead of damage, the snowball should give a ms buff for runing towards enemies for a short time, like 3sec, and give allys a huge speedbuff for running towards you at the same time, so you can stick to the enemies after useing it and you team can follow. Maybe that the buff scale per level, so you can't just crush ranged comps in the early after kanding 1 snowball...

Another option would be granting a AOE slow filed after dash, so you can keep the enemies in place even if your not allistar or amumu...

Lugg3 votes

That would probably work. It's just that melee champs are at a HUGE disadvantage in ARAM and need something to even the playing field.

Mandaari2 votes

That would, and already does, work. Talisman of Ascension and Righteous Glory are great for this. Another option is overkill.

Saianna2 votes

I'm quite surprised LB doesn't have high win-rate. I realy am surprised!

I like snowballs, yes i know they migh be kind of unbalanced/unhealthy, but still they change the way we play, which is nice.

Also hae in mind that ALOT of retards get snowball no matter what champion they use. Andthen they ust throw it for "MUH DAMAGE"...

Silmaril8 votes

Most assassins are actually pretty bad in ARAM. It's basically a 20 minute 5v5 teamfight/seige situation, a situation where most assassins are pretty bad. On top of that, most of the "meta" champs (ie, the ones people are likely to not reroll) tend to have powerful peels or protection of some kind, and huge Janna/Karma/Lulu shields are pretty common. The only assassins to command any sort of decent winrate are Talon and Katarina who have tons of AOE in their kits, and they still struggle to hold a 50% win ratio.

To be honest, I was ready to say that I dislike Mark/Dash, but thinking about it, I do feel that it was a step in a positive direction for the most part, but mostly in ways that weren't intended. It didn't do bull squat for the balance on the map (something that still desperately needs to be addressed), but I realized that I'm liking it more, even when I don't even take snowball, because of how it changed the way people approach the map. For one, as much as I really don't care for the spell itself, I still far prefer it over seeing Barrier or Heal on 9-10 champs every game. More importantly though, people are have the (admittedly inaccurate) perception that snowball fixes the problems with bad champs, which means there's a noticeable increase in diversity since people don't reroll as often, which in turn led to a pretty huge drop in the rate at which you see the most annoying champs. They're still fairly common, but I've found that games are a lot less stompy than they were when all you would ever see was supports + super-poke champs.

Retillin1 votes

No, you always kate mark/dash. Even as Kog/Vayne/ect... You can use it backwards to a minion, mark another champ on their team as way to escape. Or to chase down the other guys if you are winning. Add in the ability to hunt invisible champs and it's even better on each champion...

Saianna3 votes

Yeah especially when you pick Xerath or Ziggs. Like HELL will u be infront of enemy minions.

Because of that "gotta get the snowball no matter what" reason lots of players die.

You do NOT need it on every champion. It might save you once per game, barrier or heal would do it better.

FDru1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah especially when you pick Xerath or Ziggs. Like HELL will u be infront of enemy minions.

Because of that "gotta get the snowball no matter what" reason lots of players die.

You do NOT need it on every champion. It might save you once per game, barrier or heal would do it better.

You need it on 60% of champions pretty much.

So let's say you own all the champs, and you get Ziggs, and want to take exhaust or whatever.

Then you roll Volibear the next match and forget to change back, and are now a useless lump who wants to literally suicide IRL for the next 20 minutes.

So you just decide "fuck it, taking mark on every champ".

Saianna3 votes

That kind of logic is as twisted as twisted fate playing on twisted treeline.

Maliginant1 votes

Or even worse ap ezreal, "don't worry guys; we'll win once I get my two item power spike at 20 minutes." Team proceeds to get raped while waiting for him to do anything.

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