@IronStylus: What were some of the ideas you had for Irelia's redesign?

Raxistaicho·Feb 16, 2015·9 votes·18,543 views

I remember seeing a discussion you were part of mentioning you had a great idea for her, but you're leaving her on the backburner until her gameplay update is more sorted out.

I was just curious if you could give us a teaser or two on your vision, I understand you can't really tell us everything. I really like the way you design female champs, so to be honest I was happy to learn that you're involved with her redesign. Irelia's a favorite of mine, who doesn't like a character who's concept is just that she refuses to die in battle through sheer force of will and sense of duty?

Anyways, a reply would mean a lot to me, even if you can't divulge much :)

61 Comments

RiotIronStylusFeb 19, 201516 votes

A lot of what she'll be depends a whole hell of a lot on a gameplay overhaul. She's currently viewed as a larger scope project, but if gameplay is able to ship something first, we might scale back the scope. I don't think that they have a kit currently however. She's technically in the "high-opportunity" bucket, but chances are she'd need a whole lot of support from all three disciplines.

Personally, I like to design around story and gameplay. I can work with her being an Ionian general wielding unobtainium soul-blades. That's cool to build off of. However if we overhaul her narrative aspects, some things might change, but I don't see her main reads as changing. She's not going to turn into a magic wand user or anything.

The version I have currently sort of looks like a blend of some internal Ionian exploration we've worked on as well as some hints of Yasuo's armor plates and Karma's clothing style. I riffed off of Yasuo to give her a fuller set of armor that sort of follows the plating of his armored arm. Sort of like.. what would the military version of that look like, and how does it's general sensibilities work as a whole costume?

Aside from that, that's all I really have. It'll be a good jumping off point for us when the discussion comes around though.

I'm really excited for her whenever we do decide to start pre-production on her!

Mirage NightFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

A lot of what she'll be depends a whole hell of a lot on a gameplay overhaul. She's currently viewed as a larger scope project, but if gameplay is able to ship something first, we might scale back the scope. I don't think that they have a kit currently however. She's technically in the "high-opportunity" bucket, but chances are she'd need a whole lot of support from all three disciplines.

Personally, I like to design around story and gameplay. I can work with her being an Ionian general wielding unobtainium soul-blades. That's cool to build off of. However if we overhaul her narrative aspects, some things might change, but I don't see her main reads as changing. She's not going to turn into a magic wand user or anything.

The version I have currently sort of looks like a blend of some internal Ionian exploration we've worked on as well as some hints of Yasuo's armor plates and Karma's clothing style. I riffed off of Yasuo to give her a fuller set of armor that sort of follows the plating of his armored arm. Sort of like.. what would the military version of that look like, and how does it's general sensibilities work as a whole costume?

Aside from that, that's all I really have. It'll be a good jumping off point for us when the discussion comes around though.

I'm really excited for her whenever we do decide to start pre-production on her!

I take Evelynn is also In the same boat in the same way?

RiotIronStylusFeb 20, 20159 votes

Luckily she has some gameplay cohesion. Shadow-lady-of-sexy-death is a pretty great place to start. I think there's plenty of gameplay thematics right there. Now we just need to bleed that into narrative and art.

Chromatic EagleFeb 20, 20153 votes

I'm not sure how labeling her an assassin, playing her like a fighter, and building her like a bruiser is cohesion. To me she needs that Sion level rework, but I don't know what you guys want to do with her.

MansanaFeb 20, 20151 votes

Anything to note about the sphere in between the blades? Syndra controls 3 and can summon more... Is there anything about Ionia and sphere's in general that you would like to explore? Such as something similar to the Truth seeking spheres from Naruto as a story element that makes her somewhat standout from the rest of Ionia?

CuixFeb 19, 20152 votes

I think her lich-ish-ness is something that lore fans really liked, so I very much hope some strong element of that remains. It's also good that her connections to other Ionian champions might be reinforced; many old connections are feeling rather weak/unimportant as the 'verse gets more populated with badasses.

As for her visuals, the military practical direction sounds perfect. I really hope we get to see concept art once her rework ships; that sort of stuff is very much enjoyed.

GreenLoreFeb 19, 20154 votes

Do you have any information about the planned gameplay changes?

I always thought Irelia was a champ who didn't really deliver her fantasy to the player. I mean she is this general who has levitating blades and her moveset is pretty much a standard-bruiser kit.Only her ultimate really delivers on the levitating blade thing.

RiotMeddlerFeb 20, 20155 votes

We don't have anything concrete on the gameplay side at the moment. She's got a lot of potential we'd like to develop at some point, missed opportunities on the telekinetic blade side in particular as Ironstylus has mentioned. She's in a reasonable spot balance wise right now though, and does have some really cool moments (Q chaining especially IMO), so other champs are higher priority for gameplay work right now.

SaltyKrackaFeb 20, 20153 votes

Speaking of which, whatever happened to Olaf?

You know, the champion who got a rework that apparently didn't fix anything?

GreenLoreFeb 20, 20151 votes

Actually Olafs play and win rate increased after his rework,it wasn't much and he is still on the bottom of the champs,but he was even worse before.

SaltyKrackaFeb 20, 20151 votes

They only increased because Riot actually decided to buff him after his rework made him even shittier for a time.

GreenLoreFeb 20, 20154 votes

Thing is that they didn't want to buff him without a rework.

Only his rework allowed them to buff him,because his previous kit would have ended opressive if they buffed it(also you have to keep in mind,that people generally do a crappy job at adjusting to reworks,they try to play the champ like they did before,which simply doesn't work)

turkeyBACONFeb 20, 20151 votes

May I ask what you guys think of her kit separate from the idea of a floaty blade master? Personally I think its fine for a standard bruiser and I hope you guys would be able to retain it, perhaps on a "new character". Irelia's brother would be a good candidate as he's already mentioned in the original taught be her father as well (i think) and would cause the least amount of fuss from fans of Irelia's lore and gameplay. Just a thought.

Chromatic EagleFeb 20, 20151 votes

Is she someone you want to remove her hybrid role of fighter/assassin or is she good like that?

RaxistaichoFeb 22, 20151 votes

Oh, great, I'm relieved to hear you guys like the Q chaining :) That's one thing I like best about her.

MiradorFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you have any information about the planned gameplay changes?

I always thought Irelia was a champ who didn't really deliver her fantasy to the player. I mean she is this general who has levitating blades and her moveset is pretty much a standard-bruiser kit.Only her ultimate really delivers on the levitating blade thing.

Totally agree with this. I actually love Irelia's kit in terms of game play, but it always bothered me that she has these awesome floating blades that she controls with her mind, idle animations of her spinning them around her/surfing on them and she attacks with them by getting up close and smacking people as if she were using a regular sword.

SolideusFeb 19, 20156 votes

I think her kit is actually an important issue with her current thematics and aesthetics. Her abilities doesn't really make good use of her hovering blades. Her ult is the only obvious use of them, but the targeting paradigm and the way its used kind of contradict her otherwise all-in melee play style, while not really making an interesting use of her hovering blades either. You'd expect her kit to be sword-fighting enhanced by telekinesis, not normal swordfighting plus her ult firing swords as projectiles. The whole kit making use of swords with telekinesis is what I would rather want to see.

Other than her ult she doesn't at all have anything a generic swordsman/woman couldn't have; she should make better use of her unique weapon through a unique play-style.

RiotIronStylusFeb 20, 201515 votes

Exactly! You know the animations she does for her emotes (and even death)? Those are actually more compelling uses of the blade(s) than any of her attacks including her ult. I've tried to pick her up here and there but I see no depth in her kit in relation to her blades. There's no cohesive tie in. You could throw any of those abilities on a champion and reskin them to fit any number of characters. If I'm going to be a telekinesis blade master.. I WANNA USE THEM BLADES.

So yeah. I don't care what it ends up being. Personally I like the idea of a soul-bound weapon or even something akin to having an ancestor's soul tied to the power source of the blades. Either way she's gotta get some flavor in there.

darkdillFeb 20, 20152 votes

So would a sword style more like nu-13 from Blazblue be appealing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAbn8OL8RIU

CuixFeb 20, 20153 votes

What you're saying so far sounds super cool, but this stood out to me:

{quoted} So yeah. I don't care what it ends up being. Personally I like the idea of a soul-bound weapon or even something akin to having an ancestor's soul tied to the power source of the blades. Either way she's gotta get some flavor in there.

Her weapons already have a story, and a damn compelling one at that. On the other hand, the Noxian invasion of Ionia and Soraka's intervention to semi-save Irelia might not fit in a Runeterra without the Institute. I'm worried, but then again this could be one of the better opportunities to show how stories would be strictly improved by that change, since so far we've been rather lacking in examples. Definitely a chance to get some lore dialogue going, too, hint wink cough nudge~

SolideusFeb 20, 20151 votes

I think going either way could work; either making her kit match the telekinetic theme, or re-emphasizing the theme slightly to something like the soul-bound-weapon-angle, as you mentioned.

Legendary weapons and ancestor spirits feel like they have a lot of Chinese and Japanese mythology to pull from narratively and aesthetically; maybe that is the course with most potential for her. Who knows!

MiradorFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Exactly! You know the animations she does for her emotes (and even death)? Those are actually more compelling uses of the blade(s) than any of her attacks including her ult.

Personally I always wondered why she didn't at least use the surfboard idle animation in her gap closer. She had the animation, but for some reason she chooses to just bound toward her target rather than doing anything interesting with the blades.

Kenji PlotmagicFeb 24, 20152 votes

I agree that the telekinesis blade control is a part of what makes her theme cool. I think you could play off the Ionian theme of balance with Irelia more. In her current story, she started out learning to use the blades without telekinesis, then later picked up the whirling blades of death via telekinesis. I think you could take those two themes, and use them together. Primarily, she fights using the melee style she originally learned. Then, via some kind of trigger, she can switch to telekinetic blade control. Her play and story could be based around her trying to balance between the two. Like some kind of dance between telekinetic blade control and the melee form she was trained in (Blade Dancer of sorts?).

The SoulforgedFeb 25, 20151 votes

Also, when she auto attacks, she whacks the enemy with the flat of her blade.

RaxistaichoFeb 19, 20152 votes

Good, I'm glad to see you're thinking of ways to tie her into other Ionian champs :)

Personally I've long wondered whether Irelia might have any connections to Yasuo's story. Whether she might involved in hunting him down or whether that's not her jurisdiction, for example.

MansanaFeb 19, 20152 votes

Ironstylus and his unique admiration for women in armor.

Leona Diana Sejuani Irelia Who's next? (kappa)

RiotIronStylusFeb 20, 201512 votes

I may or may not be working on a lady in armor that's of slightly less.. stature.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 20, 20154 votes

Poppy ?

You know I wonder if LoL will ever have a genuine midget champion that is distinct from Yordles. We have two blacks already. 2 handicaps (Swain and Urgot). A plain ole regular human...born with dwarfism. Like a Mini-Me for Garen.

turkeyBACONFeb 20, 201510 votes

ಠ_ಠ

MiradorFeb 21, 20151 votes

Images of Tyrian Lannister come to mind when I read this comment.

The SoulforgedFeb 25, 20151 votes

I think he replied to one of my comments about what his plans are for ladies in armor with his idea for giving Poppy a fuller set of armor.

libraryseraph Feb 21, 20151 votes

awww item 3070

RaxistaichoFeb 22, 20151 votes

Nothing wrong with liking women in armor, it's refreshing compared to some of the designs of female champs in this game XD

KrizalidFeb 22, 20151 votes

Give us Wonder Woman-like strong babe in league and we will praise you as our new Lord! xD

turkeyBACONFeb 20, 20152 votes

I love armored guys and gals, but honestly I'm a little disappointed that your going with more armor for Irelia's concepting. When I think of Ionia, I don't think of armor, I think superiority through martial skill and spiritual prowess. Especially for blades master that needs freedom of motion. Perhaps I might be misinterpreting your description but it sounds like a full armor set? Hopefully not. I like her current amount of armor on her base and I hope it stays something along those lines.

steelblackskyFeb 20, 20152 votes

tend to think this way too to be honest, i mean if her league interview notes her father as once spending the night on the roof in the rain without moving a muscle and somehow not getting wet, implying some kind of prowess ( with him being a master of one of the martial styles of the region) and many others from the region tended towards minimal physical armoring there is a sense that that goes together somehow into self mastery over mundane barriers for protection.

but then most lore has been getting retconned hard, art styles have been getting changed in favor of eh this looks neat even if its completely fluff for visuals sake and that has been feeding into changing regional styles as hard as old karmas muted gray robe theme turning into that garish white and neonish jade scheme with tons of leg and cleavage. is it visually more of a pop in the eye sure, and maybe that works for what the team decided they thought fit better, but it sure wasn't in line with what she was and in turn this redirects the perceived style of the region too. unification not necessarily a bad thing of course, but given we were starting with not exactly subdued red segmented armor, that kind of makeover could get very strange fast if not reined in.

which is why this is the first time i can recall i've read the parrot talk on irelia and been somewhat hopeful. it sounds like he is planning to turn the current segmentata armor that is a bit... questionable .. in current implementation (leg segments in particular on current default art) and work out something sane from it with a bit more detail. and trying to find more ways to do interesting things with the blades than just an extra set of animations for basically the same patterns (based on have hiten/don't and active/not active) would be nice indeed. not that i doubt the parrots art would be great in any case, more a matter of it being irelia vs some other flower called by that name if you know what i mean (which is the tricky part of course).

also rip octopus hair finally.

still think the debatably alive aspects probably gonna get retconned away from the manner of speech and impression that keeps coming through though.

Chromatic EagleFeb 20, 20151 votes

How would you describe Ionian clothes in general? Do they come in specific styles? You have Syndra, who is far different from Karma, and you want Irelia to be more militarized who is more armored than Yasuo. What did Varus look like before his transformation? Also why do Shen, Kennen, and Akali dress so differently despite being in the same order?

HizsooJul 3, 20151 votes

Whether she gets to be a military general or not, I fell like it shouldn't be the main point of her story. Rather base it around the fact that levitating blades is a noble habit. Just look at someone like Kuchiki Byakuya and his bankai for example. That could bring some really good opportunities for her ult being a battle mode. Her father/ancestor being an important person is definitely a good point, but rather move her to a more built up story with family + clan, possibly with clan rivalry.

Her current story is rather similar to Gangplank's pirate McPirate syndrome. Why the heck the captain of the guards needs/should be a person with a martial art which is really different than the usual basic? At this point for the narrative standpoint I recommend to look at everything levitated, moved by will in animes and in the cultures of far east.

---Some ideas, a few months later---

VerinitiusFeb 20, 20157 votes

I dont expect any of these ideas to be used or getting a direct response for that matter, but I hope Riot reads through these to perhaps get some inspiration from their players.

I think everyone can agree that Irelia's gameplay does not really match the fantasy of a hovering-sword wielder and just feels like any other bruiser in the game. If a rework is to happen in the future, perhaps the focus should be more on her manipulating her giant heirloom blade in lieu of her having the dash, slow/stun, attack speed that makes her feel like a stronger version of xin zhao. The following are some ideas I thought of that might fall more in line with her fantasy but I concede that her playstyle would be utterly different and almost be like a blade version of oriana.

Motivation for suggestions: Her abilities will simply be spinning movements of her propeller-like blade, whether it be forward and back, side to side, or circular on the spot. In order to replicate the feeling of her wading into the fray and ignoring CC to do damage that her current passive seems to offer, the various blade movements her abilities do will now deflect projectiles and the cc that comes with them. Now instead of having an invisible power from increasing tenacity, it takes actual player skill to deflect incoming cc and damage. Her ult has two different modes like jayce and elise that change the direction her blades spin.

This directional change is a result of her breathing. Alot of asian martial arts use different breathing and exhaling sounds to achieve different power generations where the thoracic cavity has increased structural support through the increased tension generated by the forceful expulsion of air, resulting in more powerful force delivery in punches due to improved structural integrity of the body. (I am not talking about that magical qigong bs where you can yell and kill a man with your shout).

Anyways in terms of lore, Hiten style could really be Hi-ten style, corresponding to the two different breathing methods used in sending the blade flying through the air. 'Hi' (probably pronouned more like 'hee') being forceful exhaling and expansion of the chest implying direct brute force. While 'Ten' is inhaling through expanding the volume of the stomach and compression of the chest instead in order to both harden the body for incoming punishment and also to chamber for a powerful expansive 'Hi'.

Ability Suggestions: R: Irelia switches from 'ult mode 1' (Hi) to 'ult mode 2' (Ten). The first ability used after switching modes gives the ability an additional power. Leveling up R gives passive increases to offensive stats for 'Hi' and passive increases to resistances or regen for 'Ten'. VERY low cooldown to facilitate constant switching.

Q: Irelia sends her blade out and back like a boomerang to target location. When 'Ult mode 1' is active, the blade travels out spinning downwards pushing enemies away a short distance (like draven's stand aside e). If this is the first ability activated after switching to 'ult mode 1' then additionally as it travels back it will spin upwards and also knock opponents up. When 'Ult mode 2' is active, the blade travels out spinning upwards knocking opponents up. If this is the first ability used after switching to 'ult mode 2', then additionally as it travels back it will spin downwards pulling enemies closer a short distance.

W: Irelia spins her blade rapidly on the spot facing the direction she clicks to in front of her (like an airplane propeller) for 2 seconds, applying attack damage and on hit effects for X ticks (maybe dependent on attack speed like lucian's ult?) to all enemies it touches When 'ult mode 1' is active and is the first ability used after activation, her blades also apply true damage per tick When 'ult mode 2' is active and is the first ability used after activation, it nullifies all projectiles that pass through the blade.

E: Irelia swipes her blade from one side to the other (maybe nidalee's swipe distance), knocking enemy units aside. If E is the first ability used after either ult modes is activated then it also deflects projectiles away at an angle dependent on the angles of contact. When 'ult mode 1' is active the swipe is from left to right. When 'ult mode 2' is active swipe is from right to left.

Media inspiration At 42:38 of this clip here, Jet Li's character begins fighting another person by rapidly spinning is sword through the air and twirling it in his hands again to redirect the spinning momentum in order to launch other strikes and blocks. This feels like what Irelia ought to be.

At 1:52:07 of this clip here, Zhou xun's character spins the sword rapidly in order to slice the other guy multiple times in the neck, this is kinda what I imagined her W would be in my suggestions above, though instead of being horizontal the blade would be vertical instead like a propeller here. Apologies for the bloodshed.

RiotIronStylusFeb 20, 20158 votes

Oh snap. Well I'm not a designer but you definately have thematics in here, that's certainly what we'd want to see. Everything you're mentioning in terms of blade manipulation I feel is spot on. I'm not concerned with numbers, but I like the feel of the character you're describing. Love the tie in to the aspect of breathing. That's clever. The reference is also really inspiring!

I'm going to take a note on this and throw it at Vesh who's been interested in Irelia for a while and may take a crack at her in the future.

darkdillFeb 20, 20152 votes

Now this would be absolutely SICK. Definitely a lot more fun than the current Irelia. Might need a tweak or two for balance, but that can occur later.

Parrot, you have your kit. Make some magic!

NeameanFeb 20, 20152 votes

so would w be similar to Pantheon heartseeker strike?

Teridax68Feb 20, 20153 votes

The idea of Irelia telekinetically manipulating sounds amazing! Have you also taken a look at Darth Traya from Knights of the Old Republic? She's a Sith Lord whose signature combat move is controlling three airborne lightsabers to cut down her enemies, and I think her fighting style would go really well with the overall theme you're proposing.

SonicÐeHedgedawgFeb 19, 20152 votes

One of my big problems with her, is that her current style reads a LOT like v-13 from BlazBlu: an aggressive area-control character who keeps you away from her with telekinetically controlled blades.... But then her actually gameplay she just plays like a generic bruiser who swings the blades in front of her just like she would if they were not controlled with telekinesis. Her ult fits that a bit more... But it seems like no one thought about her cohesion when they released her.

I honestly don't care whether they keep her a bruiser or they change her identity to make use of her special bond with her swords... I just really want the visual queues to match the gameplay. Though, honestly, at this point, the identity of "earliest peaking top laner" is something people will miss if she loses it

NeameanFeb 20, 20152 votes

Honestly i don't like the idea of changing her kit/style but this seem relevant

http://youtu.be/sleCCLfFGss?t=19s

Celeste BenalFeb 20, 20152 votes

One of the thematic and practical aspects of telekinesis is moving things at range. But in practice, only Irelia's ult moves her blades at range. Although one could explain her Q as her holding on to her flying blade.

In any case, I really think her abilities should be more of the ranged variety with her AAs being focused on close-ranged combat. She should be able to throw her blades to pierce an enemy for damage at range, make stationary walls and shields, or throw them around to do a lot of damage in small AoEs. I also don't like how her scaling is all over the place. And her passive, while useful, simply does not match her flavor. Neither does Hiten-style. But we can fix that.

This begs the question what about her auto-attacks? Should they be close range melee, or long range poke? If we go lr poke, we risk turning her into an ADC, and an exceptionally powerful one at that. So I'm thinking keep her AAs melee range.

I like the suggestion below of changing Irelia's ult to a switch like Elise's ult or Jinx's Q. Swap between Hi- and ten sub-styles. Whichever mode is active can determine what kind of on-hit effects she gets on her other abilities, or even completely different abilities. Personlly I would make abilities on the same skill share a similar theme.

Passive: While in Hi-style Irelia gains 5% Lifesteal (too much?). While in Ten-style Irelia's attacks gain bonus magic damage based on scaling AP. (True Damage would be OP for an always on passive ability.)

Q: PIercing Blades. Hi-style: For every level in Piercing Blade, Irelia can summon 1 spirit blade. Irelia fires all her blades at once in a line towards the cursor. On contact with an enemy unit the enemy struck will be rooted for .25 sec per blade and will take a small amount of magic damage per blade based on scaling %AP. Essentially, this is just like Morgana's Q. But Irelia is pinning her enemy to the ground with her swords for a short duration. Ten-style: For every level in Piercing Blade, Irelia can summon 1 spirit blade. She can fire each spirit blade in a line towards the cursor, dealing physical damage to enemies it passes through. Applies on-hit effects. Deals magic damage based on %AP+ some flat damage. Similar to Transcendant Blade but not as powerful.

W: Flying Blades. Hi-style: Irelia dashes to an ally, reducing all physical damage dealt to them and herself by 50% for the next 1/2/3/4/5 seconds. Ten-style: Irelia dashes forward to strike her target, dealing physical damage and applying on-hit effects. Both: If Irelia gets a kill, the cooldown on this skill is reset and refunds 35 mana.

E: Spinning Blades. Hi-style: Irelia spins her blades vertically in front of herself forming a shield of blades that protects Irelia from projectiles. Any enemy caught in the blades is stunned for the duration of the ability and takes physical damage for the duration of the ability based on scaling AD+some flat damage. Duration: .5sec per level. Ten-style: Irelia spins her blades horizontally around her, dealing physical damage in an AoE (2x AA range?) based on scaling AD+flat damage. Enemies caught in the effect are slowed (20/30/40/50/60%) per level for .5sec per level.

R: Hiten Style. Swap modes. Very short cooldown, if any. No cost. Available at level 1.

So what does all this mean? Swapping modes does not reset your skills. You are not Elise. You cannot Q in, pop an ult, and then ward hop out. You are not Lee Sin or Zed. Both your dashes are on the same skill. The potential for flashy LCSBigPlays is definitely there. She can root, swap, dash, slow+damage, then dash out if she gets a kill with her combo. But she doesn't get the dash reset without a kill. So you had better be sure of yourself when you go all in.

Note: I'm thinking having her dash reset on monster and minion kills might be pretty nifty. Or OP. Not sure which yet. Probably OP.

She has sustain or extra damage based on mode. Not both. She no longer does true damage. I know folks will miss that. But on an always on passive, that would be either extremely OP or nerfed to uselessness. She is definitely a melee. But she has some poke. So she should still be viable top lane. Her sustain and damage can make her viable in the jungle. Rush Q levels and poke like a boss. Rush E levels and be a wave-clearing goddess. Or rush W levels and... well, be average.