Riot, Summoners were not Gods

Impetual·Oct 5, 2014·39 votes·5,011 views

The recent lore retcon within Runeterra has really disappointed me.

Back in the day, Riot created lore that depicted an interesting world with summoners and the Institute of Justice and now, for some reason, they decided to retcon the world they exist in (Runeterra) into something much more generic.

What helped to make these champion's themes unique was their placement within the League of Legends, a place where champions from a variety of backgrounds battled one another to determine the fate of the world. This concept has been scratched.

None of the stories that were made recently (the Shurima event, and arguably the Freljiord event) would have been affected by Summoners or the IoW existing or not. There's no clear reason why they needed them gone.

There really doesn't seem like there is any reason to retcon the lore, other than to simplify things for the players that don't care about lore.

Another thing, I've seen too many Rioters misrepresent LoL's lore and pretend that Summoners and the IoW were too powerful, and say that is was the reason that they were removed.

Summoners were never all powerful, all good, or all knowing. **They weren't gods. The Journal of Justice gave us stories that showed us that summoners in lore, were just like us. They were corrupt, self serving, and sometimes bad. **

Riot Please, don't pretend that Summoners and the IoW were all powerful and use it as an excuse to pretend they never existed.

If you want to get rid of them, have the balls to do it through storytelling, rather than retcons.

Or, you could just reconsider your decisions to get rid of them.

Being a champion means nothing, without taking into account the world they live in. Telling stories purely through champions doesn't give us the full picture. We want to see things through the average denizen of Runettera, through its summoners, *and *through its champions.

And sometimes, even through Runeterra's history books.

In my opinion, Riot's newest approach at lore seems much more limiting than what it had before.

67 Comments

Legacy of XionOct 5, 201413 votes

So, the retcon of the League allows big wars.

Too bad at the end of the day you're still going to be Frost Archer fighting Boar Rider on a river on a mountaintop. You aren't going to be fighting in a huge war as Garen, leading the Dauntless Vanguard to crush Noxus. You aren't going to be Irelia, leading Ionia in defense of their existance. You are not going to be Kassadin, one man versus the Voidborn Invasion. You won't be Mordekaiser, bringing treacherous beats of metal and eviscerating ears during a Pentakill Performance.

You are going to be Might Man charging top lane against furry Satan. You are Undead Mace General trying to crush Dragonborn.

If I wanted to read about a huge fantasy war I'd pick up Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings, maybe Eragon, or hell, HARRY FUCKING POTTER.

I'm here to be a Summoner, working matches to avoid another Rune War. I am a Summoner, working with Kayle to ensure the laws are upheld.

If I wanted to be Generic Axe Wielding Undead Juggernaught No. 2301 I'd go, you know, play Skyrim. If I wanted to be Holy Angel of Awesomeness I'd mod Skyrim (which I have done).

The argument "now we can have full scale wars!" Is only good for reading. League is a MOBA - The Lore should reflect and enforce that.

Tell me how the full scale wars go as you charge up Murder Bridge - I'll go read the lore that makes sense and makes League of Legends what is is.

DiahaneOct 5, 20147 votes

So, the retcon of the League allows big wars.

Too bad at the end of the day you're still going to be Frost Archer fighting Boar Rider on a river on a mountaintop. You aren't going to be fighting in a huge war as Garen, leading the Dauntless Vanguard to crush Noxus. You aren't going to be Irelia, leading Ionia in defense of their existance. You are not going to be Kassadin, one man versus the Voidborn Invasion. You won't be Mordekaiser, bringing treacherous beats of metal and eviscerating ears during a Pentakill Performance.

You are going to be Might Man charging top lane against furry Satan. You are Undead Mace General trying to crush Dragonborn.

If I wanted to read about a huge fantasy war I'd pick up Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings, maybe Eragon, or hell, HARRY FUCKING POTTER.

I'm here to be a Summoner, working matches to avoid another Rune War. I am a Summoner, working with Kayle to ensure the laws are upheld.

If I wanted to be Generic Axe Wielding Undead Juggernaught No. 2301 I'd go, you know, play Skyrim. If I wanted to be Holy Angel of Awesomeness I'd mod Skyrim (which I have done).

The argument "now we can have full scale wars!" Is only good for reading. League is a MOBA - The Lore should reflect and enforce that.

Tell me how the full scale wars go as you charge up Murder Bridge - I'll go read the lore that makes sense and makes League of Legends what is is.

You made my day. Seriously, reading other people thinking this gives me back hope, it's not just me feeling this way ç_ç

Having the League's world remade in Standard Fantasy setting #8743 really saddens me.

Legacy of XionOct 5, 20144 votes

So, the retcon of the League allows big wars.

Too bad at the end of the day you're still going to be Frost Archer fighting Boar Rider on a river on a mountaintop. You aren't going to be fighting in a huge war as Garen, leading the Dauntless Vanguard to crush Noxus. You aren't going to be Irelia, leading Ionia in defense of their existance. You are not going to be Kassadin, one man versus the Voidborn Invasion. You won't be Mordekaiser, bringing treacherous beats of metal and eviscerating ears during a Pentakill Performance.

You are going to be Might Man charging top lane against furry Satan. You are Undead Mace General trying to crush Dragonborn.

If I wanted to read about a huge fantasy war I'd pick up Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings, maybe Eragon, or hell, HARRY FUCKING POTTER.

I'm here to be a Summoner, working matches to avoid another Rune War. I am a Summoner, working with Kayle to ensure the laws are upheld.

If I wanted to be Generic Axe Wielding Undead Juggernaught No. 2301 I'd go, you know, play Skyrim. If I wanted to be Holy Angel of Awesomeness I'd mod Skyrim (which I have done).

The argument "now we can have full scale wars!" Is only good for reading. League is a MOBA - The Lore should reflect and enforce that.

Tell me how the full scale wars go as you charge up Murder Bridge - I'll go read the lore that makes sense and makes League of Legends what is is.

You made my day. Seriously, reading other people thinking this gives me back hope, it's not just me feeling this way ç_ç

Having the League's world remade in Standard Fantasy setting #8743 really saddens me.

Glad I could make your day man.

DiahaneOct 5, 201411 votes

To those saying the IoW was omnipotent in preventing any possible conflict, I ask them to try to be a bit more realistic. The IoW was an organization much like the UN. The UN doesn't really prevent wars from happening, did you notice? But they're mages! Right, they are, but the various nations are bound to have theirs too. It's ludicrous to think Demacia and Noxus do not have mages. Some of the summoners were supposed to belong to political factions to start with! There were Demacian and Noxian and Ionian and Zaunite summoners, as well as those from Piltover etc. If their countries were dead set on a war, they would back them up, thus thwarting the IoW's efforts to stop a war. The IoW was a human organization with all its possible flaws: corruption, disagreement, political struggle inside it. They were not omnipotent. If the nations turned their back to them and with them a part of the summoners, they would hold as much power as any of the major countries. They were limited on resources too: to stop the war in Kalamanda they sacrificed a nexus, an invaluable artifact. Their intervention didn't come cheap. They risked hundreds of summoners' lives too in the ritual! That is no thing you can do every week if all the world suddenly gets angsty and wants to start a war.

Let's be realistic: if Russia and America wanted to ignite a war, the UN couldn't do anything about it, even if it has some weapons of its own. That's because the UN resources are linked to the countries' support to them. If the OTAN nations left it because they sided with the US against Russia, they'd lose a part of their militar power. The same goes for the old IoW: they had artifacts and all, but manpower was shared with the various countries - summoners had a nationality and their loyalty may lie elsewhere. All this leaves room to a lot of political subplots inside, outside and all around the IoW. This was a most subtle and original point for the setting. Now it's all your everyday teenager fantasy, with a bunch of characters whose sole purpose is to be cool and appeal to the reader while the plot goes on the same old tracks of "someone schemes something, someone opposes the scheme, some battles here and there and it's all resolved in a fist-fight somewhere cool" (bonus points if it's a volcano or something as flashy as that). Before there was at least room for some deep political scenario, now we are in a world akin to that of Warhammer Fantasy. War is no big deal, is the ordinary, because there is no reason for countries not to get engaged in them. Whenever a country gets its resources, war ensues. Because they've been hating each other for centuries. It's only a matter of time before they get to the beating. It's like watching a game of Age of Empires: you just have to wait for their workers to gather resources, then they'll train troops and storm into battle until they either come to a bloody stall, hence a ceasefire, or someone gets nuked out. Then resource-gathering, troop-training and here we are again. All complexity lost, war as a plot device loses its weight because it's the obvious and common occurrence.

Iron RubricOct 6, 20148 votes

My biggest gripe is that I no longer feel attached to the game. Before lore wise, I was a summoner, I thought that was the most kick ass thing in the world when I started! Especially going through the tribunal and the first in game faction game that gave us the ionian boots.

I actually mattered in the world of runtera! I then got heavily involved in reading the JOJ and lore.

Now it just feels like im playing a video game ( you know what I mean)

This game and its lore got me through a rough patch and serious depression in my life. Now it feels like im trying to hold on to a dying friend while his internal parasites burrow out and eat him alive.

For me, The lore and purpose is what made the game stand apart. I cared for each champion. Maokai's judgment made my cry my eyes out when I first read it... Hell, still does.

It all made sense to me, I really don't understand why they changed it the way they did.

Ark Angel HFBOct 6, 20147 votes

It all made sense to me, I really don't understand why they changed it the way they did.

None of us do man... hell they can't even explain it well enough when they try without lying or blatantly contradicting something from the Lore.

Legacy of XionOct 7, 20145 votes

It all made sense to me, I really don't understand why they changed it the way they did.

None of us do man... hell they can't even explain it well enough when they try without lying or blatantly contradicting something from the Lore.

Which is sad when Riot doesnt even knoe their own lore...

I Main SwainOct 5, 20146 votes

honestly, I was just disappointed in the fact they removed the tying together of lore regardless. as a writer, I found the game much more fun when it had a context and wasn't just "heres the immediate background of this guy (as in what he was doing yesterday). hes pretty strong. go kill some people. yay." having story and a context to tie everything together with just makes it overall a much more enjoyable experience. removing the institute of war and summoners from league has literally taken all purpose, in terms of lore, from the game. it turns into literally just a game with a tiiiiiny bit of story to it. I agree with your last statement though. they need to either take back removing those from the lore or find something else to replace it with and do so with some actual style instead of just saying the IoW poofed mysteriously and this poofed in to replace it.

SecretLoreOct 5, 20145 votes

The problem is that while they weren't almighty,they were indeed the most powerful faction in runeterra,as they have been shown stopping the 2 most powerful armies in all valoran. Sure they got help from Zilean ,but there is no reason why Zilean wouldn't help them to stop any act of war like this again(and the question is if they still need him or if they had the ability to do it on their own after learning how its done) and while it was difficult to do,there is no reason they couldn't do it again.

Then there is the problem that summoners have been shown to be able to summon champs from other worlds against their will,so there is nothing stopping them from summoning champions against their will(Lees lore also talks about lee sin trying to summon a beast from the jungle against its will) from valoran,which means that yes,they should be able to simply summon the most powerful individuals out of their city states whenever they want.

And thats not even talking about the potential destructive use of summoning LeeSin destroyed a whole village that was far away by accident and he was just a novice.So it should be possible for a trained summoner to do the same on purpose.

So yeah the summoners were quite powerful,but for good reason. If they simply toned down the power of the summoners,then there'd be no reason for a nation like noxus to really care for the outcome of the league matches,as no one could force them to obey to them(they have their own allies with Zaun,Bilgewater and maybe even the shadow isles,while several other nations have their own internal conflicts,so they can't just leave themselves open to attack)

GoldenSunsOct 5, 201413 votes

None of that really maters...

The IoW and the Summoners are as strong as the writers say they are/

If the option of removing them completely is on the table... then so is the option of just imagining everything about them... the full extent of there power, and what limitations there is on it?

What if it took 100 summoners 30 days of constant concentration to pull Kayle and Morgana across. What if it was only aided by powerful artifacts?

What if lee sin was only able to attempt what he did due to a very specific set of circumstances?

What if Summoners must have a Nexus and Runes to be able to summon anything?

What if the IoW only held matches when the city states came to them for help... and only interfered when "Rune Wars" might start...

What if they cared not if Ioina was crushed by Noxus as long as Noxus didn't threaten to use Rune war lvl of destruction?

What if Summoners couldn't fully control thing with a higher mind. So being with intellect had to agree to the terms to be controlled even once summoned?

All of these are on the table and keep player adjacency within the world. But in a massively lazy swipe they wiped out the one connecting element in Runeterra.

No champs can now fight each other fully... Because do you really want then to kill of a champ in lore?

further more now many champs have no reason to interact on a friendly lvl. Sej has no reason to talk to Teemo... hell no reason to even know who he is.

Lee Sin, Ori, and Jax pretty much have to be completely reworked Lore wise...

And if you think they will remain as they once where with the "core" preserved... well trundle says "hi, where is your brain again?" because he is now too stupid to know where thoughts are formed.

SecretLoreOct 5, 20141 votes

Putting my comments into the quote in Bold

None of that really maters...

The IoW and the Summoners are as strong as the writers say they are/ yeah and they made sure to make them pretty powerful

If the option of removing them completely is on the table... then so is the option of just imagining everything about them... the full extent of there power, and what limitations there is on it?

What if it took 100 summoners 30 days of constant concentration to pull Kayle and Morgana across. What if it was only aided by powerful artifacts? artifacts wouldn't change anything as they would be still in the hands of the summoners and it was established that Lee tried to summon a beast against its will alone,so it'd be weird if it suddenly took so many to summon a single person

What if lee sin was only able to attempt what he did due to a very specific set of circumstances? what hinders them at recreating these circumstances?

What if Summoners must have a Nexus and Runes to be able to summon anything? No problem since they are the ones who posess the nexuses

What if the IoW only held matches when the city states came to them for help... and only interfered when "Rune Wars" might start... The nations letting the fate of its state getting decided by a league match would probably be too much of a risk for both sides if they still have the option to win with brute force(there is a reason why we don't settle wars with boxing matches) and there would need to be some kind of penality if a nation disregards the league match. And the league already showed that they don't want any war with kalamanda

What if they cared not if Ioina was crushed by Noxus as long as Noxus didn't threaten to use Rune war lvl of destruction? During kalamanda they didn't use much magic to avoid a rune war themselves,they still got trapped in a stasis bubble

What if Summoners couldn't fully control thing with a higher mind. So being with intellect had to agree to the terms to be controlled even once summoned? I was never talking about them controlling the summoned champs,but they could summon them individually simply into a cage or whatever they wanted

All of these are on the table and keep player adjacency within the world. But in a massively lazy swipe they wiped out the one connecting element in Runeterra.

No champs can now fight each other fully... Because do you really want then to kill of a champ in lore? And would it really be that epic if battles between champs on the fields of justice happen?Battles were getting killed doesn't mean anything than sitting on the bench for 30 seconds?

further more now many champs have no reason to interact on a friendly lvl. Sej has no reason to talk to Teemo... hell no reason to even know who he is. I agree that is really something I dislike about this too

Lee Sin, Ori, and Jax pretty much have to be completely reworked Lore wise... Ori wasn't hit that hard,just replace the dream of the original with something else and done.Nocturne,Fiddlesticks and Cho'gath have it far worse

And if you think they will remain as they once where with the "core" preserved... well trundle says "hi, where is your brain again?" because he is now too stupid to know where thoughts are formed. yeah he is so stupid,that he got the leadership of his whole tribe and a magical club through trickery(not to mention he was never bright to begin with).Not to mention the trundle retcon happened while the league still existed,so I don't see how that has to do with the summoners getting removed...

GoldenSunsOct 5, 20148 votes

It would be less weird than retconing them to not exist at all.

Rew711Oct 5, 20144 votes

Here is a good list of things Riot should do by now to Christmas:

Change all the things about the Lore back to how it once was with the detail, summoners, and world still intact.

Amumu is now a Yordle, so go a head and give him those Yordle ears. You can't change him into something else again because if you do, he'll be a child mummy again that still needs to be reconfigured into something more complicated. Don't be lazy Riot.
Not giving Sion his original skin is lame and will cause much controversy. Riot gave Lee, Tundle, Karma, and Sejuni they're originals. This is not going to be good for you Riot.
You took your time in the early months of this year, thinking of things to do for champs. But some actual large scale updates were not worth it. Like in July, when you had revealed Gnar, you could had released him... But waited until August. The only thing I want to say other than that is you actually put another out in September, and have a large Rework in October. But to be honest, I really like the work you've put into SR but the fact it took this long and still has some time to come out...
Allow SR update to be playable in November. Its been long enough, and should be fine enough to put out in November. You've put a lot of work into it, which I admire, but you revealed this update in January...
Urf needs to come back, at least once, preferably in December as a gift to us for waiting.
After the TT Hexakill play, make Hexakill a permanent game mode on SR. It's fun and enjoyable.
Just putting game modes in for a limited time can be reasonable but its just not sensible. The people on LoL want something new sometimes and putting something on there as a test is good, but isn't that why you made the PBE? Putting a game mode on the actual server to test it is also reasonable, but if it works, why not keep it? Some people never got use to some game modes because they were aggravating.
I also want to say for urf, just work out all the mana users abilities to be weaker. Don't just take them off. It takes the fun out of it. If there is trouble with some of the champs having ultra fast cool downs then just make the cool downs their average speed. That shouldn't be hard.

Anyway, still love the game and wish to see more champs in the future. You are given ideas everyday by the community so just take that and make the preferred champs.

OrothrimOct 6, 20141 votes

Alright, I'll have a look at your points:

1: No, their reason for removing the summoners and IoW are legitimate and make the stagnate lore (that tons of people were complaining about) now have a chance to be interesting (They might fail obviously).

2: I agree

3: Sion's old skin was so horrible, the only way they could give a "traditional skin" for him is if they just made a terrible skin to match.

4: If Gnar was released earlier he would have been full of bugs and completely broken, they took the time to avoid a new "Release Xin Zhao" and thank riot for that.

5: Are you kidding? This is a massive rework of the entire map, do you really think it should only take a few weeks? Come on man, if it gets released this year that will be an impressive display of programming prowess on Riot's part.

6: Agreed, Urf was awesome.

7: No, then they will have to spend much more time on balance on each champ to make them balanced for 5 members, plus that will extend the already crazy queue times on every other queue.

8: The new game modes are designed to be unbalanced, so that they can be released, be really fun for a while, but not require a careful balancing act, like SR does.

9: See the previous point.

DG AshabelOct 6, 201410 votes

1: No, their reason for removing the summoners and IoW are legitimate and make the stagnate lore (that tons of people were complaining about) now have a chance to be interesting (They might fail obviously).

Can you actually show me those tons of people who were complaining about lore being stagnant due to the Institute? There were tons of people who were complaining about the lack of plot progression, the reason being that the last major story event within League's canon ended on a cliffhanger. But nobody complained about elements of the setting.

OrothrimOct 9, 20142 votes

I would argue that a "Lack of plot progression" is identical to stagnation in the lore?

DG AshabelOct 9, 20148 votes

Your argument makes zero sense because the lack of plot progression isn't connected to the Institute at all. By the time of the retcon, there were three major story arcs and numerous minor events all staged during the Institute's existence and advancing the story.

The lack of plot progression wasn't because of the Institute, it was because Riot stopped publishing new story material. Literally all they had to do in order to restore plot progression is publish another story that advances plot.

Ark Angel HFBOct 9, 20144 votes

The lack of plot progression wasn't because of the Institute, it was because Riot stopped publishing new story material. Literally all they had to do in order to restore plot progression is publish another story that advances plot.

Hell they could have just given a small timeline of when champs joined the league and that would have gone a long way.

But riot fears timelines and the Lore team is a joke to me at this point... just not a funny one.

Kinda like a clown at a funeral... all the trappings of humor but really just somber and sad.

DiahaneOct 9, 20146 votes

Your argument makes zero sense because the lack of plot progression isn't connected to the Institute at all. By the time of the retcon, there were three major story arcs and numerous minor events all staged during the Institute's existence and advancing the story.

The lack of plot progression wasn't because of the Institute, it was because Riot stopped publishing new story material. Literally all they had to do in order to restore plot progression is publish another story that advances plot.

So much this. It's funny how people use the lack of lore progression due to Riot's own choice of not developing the IoW's canon further as an argument in favor of Riot being right in saying they couldn't advanced the lore with the IoW. It's like someone complaining he doesn't ever eat anything but sandwhiches when she/he's the one preparing his/her meals xD

OrothrimOct 11, 20141 votes

So the Ionia one, which ended with "then the league fixed it cause that's their job", the Freljord one, which changed nothing except giving us Icons, and the Crystal Scar one which ended with "then the league fixed it cause that's their job".

See, for a story to have plot progression it can't be returned to the status quo at the end, there has to be PROGRESSION. The stories from the during IoW time didn't do that at all, cause either they ended with "then the league fixed it cause that's their job" or the league was pointless and we are effectively in the same boat as we presently are (No league).

Someone made a comparison to the UN earlier, using that, if the US decided to invade Australia, for our Koalas or whatever, and the UN said "stop that" then the US didn't stop the UN would be meaningless, cause a big part of their job is to protect the members of the UN.

Ark Angel HFBOct 11, 20142 votes

See, for a story to have plot progression it can't be returned to the status quo at the end, there has to be PROGRESSION.

Dude you are so full of shit... Just so full of SHIT LOGIC. Now I get to make you eat your own words.

So the Ionia one-

You mean the one that started with them in a state of being occupied... A back story of an invasion. And then through event, character driven events mind you, They protested for freedom, Fought for freedom, and won... Progressing the story to them no longer being occupied.

Seems like the story didn't "return to the status quo at the end", but instead moved forward with Ionia winning its freedom.

Further more the IoW didn't fix anything... Noxus could have won that match. Guardsman Bob just played one hell of a game. The IoW simply provided the battle field.

The stories from the during IoW time didn't do that at all.

I think I've just showed that they did in fact allow for progression.

You are a sad little troll with poor, poor logic.

OrothrimOct 11, 20141 votes

Man, why are you so angry? Calm the hell down, I am just having a discussion, I just happen to disagree with you, that doesn't make me literally Hitler, and I am never going to choose to attack you instead of presenting an argument.

The Ionian one started with Ionia getting invaded and occupied, then the invasion got reverted by the win in the IoW, that is the status quo getting returned to.

Stating the same thing over and over again doesn't make you right man?

Dude, the Ad Hominem attacks aren't arguments, they don't make you sounds smart, or right, you are justing attacking someone you know nothing about for the audacity of disagreeing with you.

You entire last post was just you making an incorrect point and then restating it while attacking me for no reason, so unfortunately since most of my points are uncontested so far I don't really have much I can reply to.

Ark Angel HFBOct 11, 20142 votes

The Ionian one started with Ionia getting invaded and occupied, then the invasion got reverted by the win in the IoW, that is the status quo getting returned to.

This is logically incorrect.

By your logic the only meaningful outcome that could be considered progression would have been Noxus winning.

OrothrimOct 11, 20141 votes

Or Ionia could have won but lost some champion permanently (Karma dies or something showing a sacrifice), that's what progression means, the actions of the characters have a permanent impact on the story, otherwise we are just watching an episode of a Sitcom (a genre of show that is well known for most of their episodes not having any plot progression).

Saying something is logically incorrect indicates that there is some flaw in the logic, but I am using the literal definition of plot progression. It is possible that you actually don't want plot progression in the story (which is fine, a number of stories are about returning to the status quo (Such as sitcoms). If that is the case than you and I merely disagree on what we want from the lore.

Thank you for presenting a more clear argument, not Ad Hominem attacks, that makes this discussion substantially more enjoyable :)

Ark Angel HFBOct 11, 20143 votes

Or Ionia could have won but lost some champion permanently (Karma dies or something showing a sacrifice), that's what progression means, the actions of the characters have a permanent impact on the story

You say a champ must die to have progression? then you consider Shurima a failure for them not killing off Sivir correct?

During the Ionia event, Lee Sin was left permanently blinded. New boots were added to the game. Riven and several other champs entire lives were twisted by the events, and the events of Ionia were a sparking point for swain starting to take power. Further more the Ionia war was when Sivir left Noxus.

The event had far reaching effects on not just Ionia but also Noxus and Demacia, as Swain raising to power brought more open conflict between the two.

Saying something is logically incorrect indicates that there is some flaw in the logic.

The flaw in the logic is that your statement wrong invalidate options. "The journey is the destination."

If I was to walk from point A to point B... cut my foot off and then limp back to Point A where I started... by our definition there would have been no progression. This completely ignores the impact of the effects of the travel.

The events of the Ionian arch left an impact on the characters and changed them, for many it was a formative time that culminated with the battle for freedom. Karma, Lee, and many other champs were very much impacted by this event.

Just because the pieces end up back where they started doesn't mean they are in the same condition

Thank you for presenting a more clear argument, not Ad Hominem attacks, that makes this discussion substantially more enjoyable :)

Yes earnest apologies I'm in a horridly soar mood, (ranked has not been kind to me today and I was not imagining you in a complex way.)

DG AshabelOct 11, 20146 votes

I. The Freljord event was already written with the retcon in mind and was mostly a marketing event to sell Trundle, Sejuani and Ashe, who were unpopular and had a low playrate until then. That's right, it took them 1.5 years to announce a retcon after putting it into motion.

II. League didn't fix anything in the Noxus vs. Ionia event, so I have no idea where you got that from. They did organize the rematch for the southern provinces, but that was because Karma bullied them into doing so by using Lee Sin's protest as an example and basically claiming Noxus doesn't have the spine to do a fair fight on the Fields of Justice.

The only "status quo" that was restored by the end of that is Ionian borders. The long-term changes included Ionia joining the Institute of War initiative, as well as personal story arcs of Irelia, Karma, Master Yi, Yasuo, Riven, Varus, Lee Sin, Soraka, Singed.

III. The League didn't fix anything in Kalamanda, quite on the opposite; they wrecked that shit skywards. There has never been a Demacia vs. Ionia conflict in that area, it was entirely staged by LeBlanc disguising herself as Jarvan IV and then railing at Swain for a while. The High Summoner of the time was Noxian, he made a deal with Swain - Noxus helps him secure the nexuses in Kalamanda and Institute pulls the string to make Swain into Grand General. So Swain made a mess to create an excuse for Institute actions, at which point they cast a spell powerful enough to contaminate the entire area and make it unfeasible for living.

By the end of that story arc, Kalamanda fell under the Institute's control, the Head Summoner was arrested for corruption, Swain became Grand General of Noxus, Katarina and Talon were revealed to be working together with Jarvan IV in order to stop Swain and find Katarina's father, Katarina took refugee in Demacia in order to avoid Black Rose assassins, plus we got Skarner out of the whole mess.

So... where did you see no story progression, again? Or does that not count unless there are massive changes to geographical borders?

Rew711Oct 6, 20141 votes

They've been working on it since last year... They showed us what they accomplished so far in January... And now its continuously brought in and out of the PBE. Its been 10 months since the showing. I think that they have done a good job on it so far. And that its fine to play on the normal servers. Just don't use it during tournament match-ups.
Why does it need to be balanced. I think this is taken too seriously now. Matches don't always need the 5 main members (adc, sup, mid, top, & jun) when you can instead have two sup bot or two top or even 2 mid in a 5 v 5. Nothing about a 6 v 6 needs to be balanced...

OrothrimOct 9, 20142 votes

Then how do pros practice for the tournaments?

I would like to agree with your point, except that many people were complaining during URF (The commonly accepted most fun game map) that it wasn't balanced since Sona could solo Baron, or Hec was unstoppable in a game.
That also doesn't address the problem of increasing all queue times very largely just so there are more maps.

SecretLoreOct 5, 20141 votes

Overall you shouldn't misunderstand me. I myself am sad about the removal of the league. It is simply that I can see why they did it.

I thought toning it down would have solved all the problems,but the thing is that if the league is not able to enforce its results,then it simply becomes irrelevant,because more powerful city states would ignore it. But keeping it powerful would obviously prevent large scale conflicts(and possibly interefere with smaller conflicts),sure there is the option to write around it,but over time it would make the leageu redundant...

Sneak DogOct 5, 20142 votes

I feel like making the IoW more specific, making the institute more about preventing a runewar and not any war, would help. It would offer an alternative to war, but not force it. Involve a runemage in your war however and they'll send Rengar/Nasus/whomever is neutral, willing and suitable for the job and take the runemage out.

It'd still have the benefits of a political nexus, it'd have a clear goal, it'd still allow for champions without global influence, but it wouldn't stop just any war. I did think the Kalamanda conclusion was quite boring. The build-up was still better than the entire Shurima/Freljord and on par with Reborn, though Reborn was much smaller scale.

DiahaneOct 5, 20145 votes

Overall you shouldn't misunderstand me. I myself am sad about the removal of the league. It is simply that I can see why they did it.

I thought toning it down would have solved all the problems,but the thing is that if the league is not able to enforce its results,then it simply becomes irrelevant,because more powerful city states would ignore it. But keeping it powerful would obviously prevent large scale conflicts(and possibly interefere with smaller conflicts),sure there is the option to write around it,but over time it would make the leageu redundant...

I can see it too the reason. I don't feel like it's a compelling one though. More like: the easy way out. My trust in the lore team thus diminishes, because I know that whatever they pull out may be subjected to sudden and undiscussed changes because they feel like it. It's all about this, people being disheartened by the lore team and caring less about the lore. They changed it once, they may change it in the future, so why should we care? It doesn't matter whatever happens, it's gonna get changed eventually if it gets in the way. And what's worse, plot holes. Plot holes everywhere. They should have those covered when they announced the retcon. Leaving some champions' lores completely outdated and in contradiction with the canon is unprofessional at least. We have whole champions' backgrounds built upon the existence of the League (hello Jax and Fiddle) and no idea where they are going with them. If I were a new not so informed player I could unlock Jax based on that and then have my fantasies crashed by a retcon. That would be awful. They shouldn't let such a thing be a possibility. But with how they handled things, that's bound to happen to someone. That someone has my simpathy and pity, but it saddens me the community as a whole couldn't protect him/her from such disappointment by firmly asking Riot to fix this untolerable situation. We are failing our fellows by not getting this kind of things done. They are failing their fans by breaking their trust. To me, right now the lore team is in a most negative standing in matters of respect. And it won't be new content to get them back to even neutral standing. It will take so much more, it will take them coherence and consistence and quality. All things they have showed to lack with the Shurima event and them not having anything ready to fix plot holes when announcing the retcon. First you should have your work done and ready, then you should announce its bearings.

lorewiseOct 6, 20146 votes

Think about the United Nations. The UN doesn't exist as the most powerful organization on earth because it has a strong army or the ability to control member nations; It exists as it does because the member nations agree to support the UN. It's by mutual agreement that the world's nations join the UN and (largely) support it.

From what's been published in regards to the Institute of War I always had the impression that this was how things work in Runeterra. No nation wants complete destruction, so in that regard the IoW makes sense to me.

DreamspitterOct 13, 20141 votes

None of that really maters...

The IoW and the Summoners are as strong as the writers say they are/

If the option of removing them completely is on the table... then so is the option of just imagining everything about them... the full extent of there power, and what limitations there is on it?

What if it took 100 summoners 30 days of constant concentration to pull Kayle and Morgana across. What if it was only aided by powerful artifacts?

What if lee sin was only able to attempt what he did due to a very specific set of circumstances?

What if Summoners must have a Nexus and Runes to be able to summon anything?

What if the IoW only held matches when the city states came to them for help... and only interfered when "Rune Wars" might start...

What if they cared not if Ioina was crushed by Noxus as long as Noxus didn't threaten to use Rune war lvl of destruction?

What if Summoners couldn't fully control thing with a higher mind. So being with intellect had to agree to the terms to be controlled even once summoned?

All of these are on the table and keep player adjacency within the world. But in a massively lazy swipe they wiped out the one connecting element in Runeterra.

No champs can now fight each other fully... Because do you really want then to kill of a champ in lore?

further more now many champs have no reason to interact on a friendly lvl. Sej has no reason to talk to Teemo... hell no reason to even know who he is.

Lee Sin, Ori, and Jax pretty much have to be completely reworked Lore wise...

And if you think they will remain as they once where with the "core" preserved... well trundle says "hi, where is your brain again?" because he is now too stupid to know where thoughts are formed.

Trundle isn't stupid at all in his new lore, as it notes he is quite clever and devious -but I dont see him as "complete monster evil" so as to be an unlikable character.

That aside the quote you are referencing is actually referencing is

"I'm gonna crush your dreams... They're in your skull, right?"

XulsigaeOct 13, 20141 votes

Unfortunately we are really only TOLD that he is clever and devious, not very much SHOWN.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 6, 20143 votes

Ofcourse with enough power or the lack of power from the summoned party a forced summon is surely possible. But attempting to do so to a champion is probably impossible. I believe every single champion that is summoned willfully accepts the summon. There's no real reason why any of them would deny a summon, they all have their reasons to want to go into battle.

OrothrimOct 6, 20142 votes

Well isn't that counter to the lore of like 10 different champions, Nasus, Renekton, Morganna and Kayle were all summoned from alternate dimensions without their consent, in a few instances they were in the middle of something really important, (Nasus was about to kill Rene). You can't say "oh, that was the first time, after that they can resist" because we have no evidence to suggest that.

Serpents EmbraceOct 6, 20144 votes

They wanted them gone because they felt they needed to answer the "why would this [new champion] join the League". Which is kind of bull considering champions like Fiddlesticks and Nocturne (captives) or Cho'Gath (who is described as too big to be on the Fields, which suggests that the Cho we play is some kind of reconstruction like the jungle monsters).

SolideusOct 5, 20142 votes

Collectively, they were powerful enough to police all other factions. They were written this way to justify the gameplay, which they now decided to disconnect from the lore development. Without summoners deciding their every move the factions and champions can take center stage. If anything this makes the lore more complex, certainly not less.

Ark Angel HFBOct 5, 201413 votes

Collectively, they were powerful enough to police all other factions. They were written this way to justify the gameplay, which they now decided to disconnect from the lore development. Without summoners deciding their every move the factions and champions can take center stage. If anything this makes the lore more complex, certainly not less.

Bullshit...

Under the watch of the IoW...

Ionia was still invaded.

Urf was murdered(on summoners rift no less).

Freljord entered into bloody civil war.

Lux snuck into Noxus to spy and steal spells.

Kat killed a Demaciain general.

Demacia and Noxus still fought land wars.

SolideusOct 5, 20141 votes

Ionia wasn't part of the league when it was invaded. Urf was a joke character, most likely not canon at all. Freljord's civil war had nothing to do with the Institute. I grant you cloak and dagger operations weren't impossible, but surely one wants a wider variety than that; everyone can't be spies and rogues. Demacia and Noxus did not fight land wars after the institute was created; they tried to fight over Kalamanda but were stopped right away. Calm down a little man.

GoldenSunsOct 5, 20149 votes

Ionia wasn't part of the league when it was invaded.

So you are saying if a city state wanted to... they could simply leave the league and not be subject to the league intervention? doesn't seem that powerful if they are not even forcing states to be members.

Urf was a joke character, most likely not canon at all.

Urf is canon in that he was both shown on the Rift and also mentioned in the JoJ as possible being brought back.

Freljord's civil war had nothing to do with the Institute.

So large scale battles that kill thousands of people can have nothing to do with the IoW... interesting...

I grant you cloak and dagger operations weren't impossible, but surely one wants a wider variety than that; everyone can't be spies and rogues.

Nope but then again they don't have too be.

Demacia and Noxus did not fight land wars after the institute was created; they tried to fight over Kalamanda but were stopped right away.

The league stepping in there is what the writers had them do... they didn't have to. The witters wrote themselves into a corner. And then took the lazy way out.

Calm down a little man.

I didn't read him as not being calm? why did you?

SecretLoreOct 5, 20142 votes

Ionia was invaded because it was NOT a part of the league at that time. Thus Ionia was a free target for everyone.

When Ionia finally managed to get into the league it was already too late. Noxus had already claimed several regions of Ionia as their own and thus were allowed to keep them,which is why they decided the fate of these regions through a league-match.

champs got a lot of freedom as long as they don't try to kill each other,since urf was no champ at that point,there was nothing that went against ww killing him.

Freljord civil war was internal,internal conflicts could still happen.

Lux sneaking in and out was done without anyone noticing her,sneaky stuff like that was still possible

katarinas backstory most likely played before the league was even a thing

And the battle between noxus and demacia that is know to have happened outside ionia and after the league was a thing is the one in kalamanda which got stopped.

GoldenSunsOct 5, 20148 votes

When Ionia finally managed to get into the league it was already too late. Noxus had already claimed several regions of Ionia as their own and thus were allowed to keep them,which is why they decided the fate of these regions through a league-match.

So you are saying that a city state could simple leave the IoW and then do what they want?

champs got a lot of freedom as long as they don't try to kill each other,since urf was no champ at that point,there was nothing that went against ww killing him.

Urf was a champ actually... He is stated to be such in the JoJ.

SecretLoreOct 5, 20142 votes

They could leave the league,but then they'd be more or less free to be attacked. The league offers also some protection.

And ok my bad,thought he died just before he could become a champ.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 5, 20141 votes

The Institute was never all-powerful. However, they were powerful enough to negate entire wars. The Institute had (literally) the most powerful magic users in the world at their command. Kalamandra was the example, as they literally stopped all armies from clashing to create an entire null-sphere, locking out anyone from moving or being...well, combative.

Was the institute capable of being controlled? Entirely. Swain, LeBlanc,. all those noxians working behind the scenes. Still, what happens if they do get their way? Now Noxus has the most powerful magic beings in the world, capable of imprisoning void terrors (Cho'Gath) with little consequence? Yeah, the whole thing was kinda shitty. And yes, Summoners weren't necessarily good or bad but god damn if they weren't able to just do what they wanted.

Asides, these stories aren't just telling the stories of Champions. Look at "Reborn". We not only saw Sion, we see those around him. Darkwill's Horror at what Sion became. Noxus's pride in a fallen son. Swain's scheming that brought about the revival. Hell, Reborn is basically giving you everything you asked for in the new lore.

DiahaneOct 5, 20148 votes

The Institute was never all-powerful. However, they were powerful enough to negate entire wars. The Institute had (literally) the most powerful magic users in the world at their command. Kalamandra was the example, as they literally stopped all armies from clashing to create an entire null-sphere, locking out anyone from moving or being...well, combative.

Was the institute capable of being controlled? Entirely. Swain, LeBlanc,. all those noxians working behind the scenes. Still, what happens if they do get their way? Now Noxus has the most powerful magic beings in the world, capable of imprisoning void terrors (Cho'Gath) with little consequence? Yeah, the whole thing was kinda shitty. And yes, Summoners weren't necessarily good or bad but god damn if they weren't able to just do what they wanted.

Asides, these stories aren't just telling the stories of Champions. Look at "Reborn". We not only saw Sion, we see those around him. Darkwill's Horror at what Sion became. Noxus's pride in a fallen son. Swain's scheming that brought about the revival. Hell, Reborn is basically giving you everything you asked for in the new lore.

But it needed not the removal of the IoW to do so. So that part of our complaints doesn't get dealt with in any way.

Repeating myself: they stopped a war, but at a cost, they risked hundreds of lives and sacrificed an invaluable artifact. They can't pull a Kalamanda every day of the week. Logistic is a thing even in fantasy. They couldn't afford to send so many summoners, say, on the entire war front if Demacia and Noxus were to go at it again. They just couldn't, because no nation hellbent on ignoring the IoW would let the IoW members travel through it. Plus, they couldn't possibly always make it in time and they would exhaust their resources, because they have no infinite number of nexuses and the likes.

Besides, the Kalamanda arc showing the IoW to be that way was the writers' choice. So, they put themselves in such a corner if you consider it a show of too much power on their side. The IoW was just as powerful as they wanted it to be. They gave a lot of reasons why it couldn't be omnipotent, so they could have just stressed those to get around the restrictions they felt. That would have been less brutal and unprofessional than rewriting the core of their setting. Really, how is it possible no one agrees it's just alright awful storytelling to retcon things? Would you ever accept a book series to change its setting midway?

Edit: "they could teleport" is a possible counter-argument to the logistic part of the thing, but that supposes that teleportation magic on long distances and grand scale is safe, reliable, cheap and cannot be countered by other forms of magic. If it was that easy to teleport contingents of mages, the big countries would just teleport their armies in the enemies' capitals.

Sneak DogOct 5, 20147 votes

Reborn only told me everything I wanted because I no longer care about the world. I only care about the champions. This is because they removed the one interesting faction.

Even then, you could've just nerfed the IoW. Made them a group that only stopped the use of runemagic in wars and offered an alternative to war as a sidenote. Then when Noxus and Demacia went to war, the IoW would offer them an alternative (the fields of justice) and send out neutral champions to hunt down any runemages employed in this war.

I personally think the institute was too strong. I also think it was the only thing that made the LoL lore premise interesting and connected the gameplay and the lore in a for mobas then unique way. Now we have a generic premise for our lore and Riot needs to take extra effort not to work with the institute but to make their story interesting in the first place, especially now that we can't even get close to experiencing the lore ourselves. Shurima wasn't interesting to me save for the ascension rite. Freljord wasn't interesting to me at all, it was just a notification that the Freljord is at war, that's not an event, that's an update. Ionia vs Noxus was amazing because they resolved that on the fields of justice, just like we could. The JoJ set up this whole system of players playing for factions with faction specific and neutral champions only and actually play the lore and Riot never even tried to use it. They speak of making the lore more immersive, but they just removed all immersion and the Ascension gamemode didn't even come close to immersion. The gamemode had no connection to the lore at all.

On top of that, they now have to retcon champions that worked with their old premise but not with their new. In order to tell stories about a champion, the champion needs to be relevant on a large scale. The institute used to make anyone joining it automatically relevant. Old Trundle had to be retconned to be a troll king and got his character butchered in the process.

Technically, this isn't even the case. You can just tell any story and it works. You can tell about Trundle the swamp troll doing his thing and it's a story. It isn't interesting in any way, but it is a valid story given the premise. With the IoW, stories had a bit more solid of a framework. I knew it was going to involve the institute and I wondered how. I wondered how the writer was going to handle it this time. Restrictions make writing more challenging, but also more interesting.

You just removed old restrictions, but you also replaced an interesting premise with a boring one. To make up, you need to put in effort to make a story interesting, perhaps even more effort that creating an equally interesting story with the old restrictions would take. I think the removal of the IoW is a sign that Riot is incapable of writing well enough to write around the premise. This is fine, but somehow I didn't imagine Riot avoiding challenges instead of taking them head-on.

DG AshabelOct 5, 201411 votes

I think people misunderstand just how thoroughly staged Kalamanda was. It was essentially an enormous spectacle for the Institute to show off how powerful they are, which quite possibly means that none of it was true. Here's the thing.

There was no actual confrontation between Noxus and Demacia. Jarvan IV was nowhere near Kalamanda at the time, he was digging through Marcus du Couteau's diaries together with Katarina. One good example of proof is right here; note how it mentions that Jarvan was with Katarina at the time of the conflict. Another piece of evidence would be here. Notice how Jarvan's reflection in Swain's platemail is actually Leblanc.
The Chief Editor of the Journal of Justice was immensely corrupt and contributed to the conspiracy surrounding Kalamanda. It's quite possible that he has severely over-embellished the events surrounding the conflict in order to make summoners' contributions greater than they actually were.
It took four hundred summoners to pull off the time stop spell in Kalamanda. Even then, they needed to use a portable Nexus in order to cast it (the Nexus was expended in the process, indicating that summoners actually need to draw magic energy from a Nexus in order to power their abilities and are quite weak on their own). Even then, Zilean was handling the smaller details of the spell.

So really, everything points to the summoners not actually being all that powerful. It's quite likely that the more corrupt ones, such as Relivash, intentionally aggrandized his abilities in order to intimidate people around him. This wouldn't be the first canon where mages lie about what they're actually capable of in order to maintain their social position, just look at how many mages in Harry Potter are more hot air than actual skill.

Mjolnir802Oct 6, 20141 votes

Telling the stories of the champions and the relationships they each have creates a web of tales to follow. Instead of everyone having this one ham-fisted common factor between all 100+ characters, we can now have stories that are able to develop more naturally than being channeled through the IoW and the League.

The League as it was always kind of bothered me to be honest. Ignoring that these summoners are able to call upon the most powerful creatures, warriors, and mages that the Valoran has ever known on a whim, why are they able to do it in such a way that all existing relations between the champions are irrelevant? Why would Garen fight Lux or J4, why would Lucian fight alongside Thresh, why would Soraka help Warwick? These meaningful relationships between the characters are rendered meaningless if we continue under the assumption that the League of Legends is an actual entity within this world.

What can happen now, is that each characters story can become their own; not a backstory as a means to becoming a member of this magical fight club. We can now explore their stories. They are no longer bound to the League and the IoW. They can all pursue their goals as they see fit, fighting alongside those they see as allies and against those they see as adversaries, when and where they want. Not when a bunch of magicians tell them to.

DG AshabelOct 6, 201412 votes

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to those 200+ chapters of Skarner Rengar Nautilus Ahri and Nidalee sitting in the jungle/village/cave/lake in the middle of nowhere and doing nothing. Those will be truly meaningful and profound.

Sarcasm aside, every time you vomit out the same tired justification that paints the Institute in a manner that contradicts the lore surrounding it, a Poro jumps into the Howling Abyss in despair. Please think of the Poros.