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Ever notice how Roman Noxus is?

Lordk0z··5 votes·1,368 views

Think about it. The emphasis on military prowess and it's direct link to leadership not just as a tribal "the strong rule" system, but one defined by the very culture of the nation. The expansionism and military strength. But what really clinches it is the noxian practice of considering their conquered to be Noxian, albeit only if they assimilate into Noxian values, and allowing those conquered a chance, if they have the strength to grasp it, to gain positions of power. This last bit is quite likely why Noxus is so damned sucessful as an empire. Historically, the key strengths of the Roman Empire was how it would assimilate it's conquered peoples fully, and said people would come be see themselves as roman and serve in it's legions, along with the strong meritocracy in it's ruling classes and development of written law.

The emphasis on the military, the foundation of rule of law, the meritocratic leadership to avoid stagnancy and corruption, and the assimilation of the conquered into the empire wholly, are key traits to an empire. Traits Noxus embraces wholly, to the point of being defined by them.

But of course, the corruption (CoufLeblanc Couf) and politics are starting to dig into Noxus. Can the true sons of Noxus (Sion Darius Katarina ) take back the nation from the Black Rose or will it be doomed to collapse?

Could be an interesting theme for the lore update.

14 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

Gonna need to see Darius in a toga now.

Lordk0z1 votes

{quoted}

Gonna need to see Darius in a toga now.

Academy Darius in a toga chugging a keg.

What? Toga parties are awesome.

Who is Taliyah4 votes

Did you notice how much like ancient egypt shurima is

Lordk0z1 votes

Well that was pretty obvious, whereas Noxus and Demacia don't really have a single overarching basis beyond generic fantasy europe at first glance.

desertcroc1 votes

Can the true sons of Noxus ( Kled ) take back the nation from the Black Rose or will it be doomed to collapse?

Could be an interesting theme for the lore update.

FTFY

Lordk0z1 votes

I said sons, not father.

SickAnto1 votes

So, we need Caesar.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

A genius tactician and politician that manipulated the Roman system and killed, bribed, and roused his men in a way to destroy the previous government and get himself set up as leader?

Yeah, Noxus doesn't have anyone like that: Swain

Hell, he even has a younger, poorer, impetuous sub-general a la Antony: Darius

All they need to do is emphasize the previous government was corrupt as hell, show Swain actively helping the poor and economic instability of Noxus, while also implying all his good deeds may just be a cover for his obvious power grab, making everyone argue whether he was a hero or a tyrant for the rest of time.

SickAnto1 votes

Excellent knowledge, really, you surprised me :D But something is missing...we din't have a Brute :T (LeBlanc can be the Cleopatra but without one sentimental relation :v)

Lordk0z1 votes

Pretty sure Swain Is part of the corruption and politics that's rotting away the old Noxus. The aristocracy and weakness symbolized by the black rose.

Rome was unstable, the senate was infighting, and Caesar was merely the worst (and best) of the lot whose ambition, skill, and luck led him to be victorious.

In the end, Swain's no better than the old aristocrats.

Merely more ambitious.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

You're making Swain sound more like Caesar.

They both were part of the corrupt aristocracy.

They both were the greatest military and possibly political minds of their time.

They both gained a loyal following based around their skill, wealth, and charisma.

They both were insanely corrupt, like, damn some of the shit Caesar did before defeating Pompey? Holy crap, that he got away with it is amazing.

However, Caesar himself was a Populist, and upon gaining power he initiated a hell of a lot of political and agricultural reforms that benefited the poor quite dramatically, and gave certain disenfranchised groups of allies a position in the senate to vote upon Roman policy. Ultimately, benefiting the lower classes more in his time than any Roman had since the Gracchi brothers tried to get their reforms passed, with mixed success. And that was 75ish years before Caesar really reached his position of power and the inequality was even worse than it was during the Gracchi's time.

However, Riot doesn't seem to be going with the inequality of the poor and political inequality of Roman allies, to give motivation for why Swain was popular with people. Instead they seem to be going with, he's just a really, really good general. Not as interesting as old Gaius, but much easier to explain.

Other than the Shurima update, which touched upon slavery. Riot doesn't really delve into the socio-political complexities of their kingdoms. Noxus is militaristically egalitarian. Demacai is generic renaissance-medieval land, with a drop of anti-mage thrown in. And so on. So, I can understand why they're going with a more simple backdrop for Swain's rise to power.

Lordk0z1 votes

The thing is, Caesar ultimately created the line of emperors. Where the Republic once was, the Empire now stood.

Populism, is not quite the same force it is today. In rome, there are the Populares and the Optimates. These were not political parties like those we have today, but ideologies for how to attain power. The Populares saw power as coming from the people, and thought by giving the masses bread and circuses, they could gain power, while the Optimates saw power as coming from the old families of Rome and their connections. Both cared more for glory and wealth to them and their family than for ideals espoused. It was a means to an end.

Caesar, like all Romans of the aristocratic class, wanted power and glory for himself. He gave the plebs (yes, that is literally what they were called) what they wanted purely because it would benefit him to do so. You can see how this all echoes, incompletely and imperfectly (as it was likely a thing of pure coincidence rather than something intentional, if I'm wrong, please by all means, correct me), how Riot reworked Noxian culture from being the standard evil empire.

This is how great nations fall. The very strengths Noxus once embodied are dying out. The soldiery, now more than ever, are thrown aside for political intrigue and the once-true ideal that any who would brand themselves Noxian and had the strength to earn it, could become great, is being lost in favor of backroom deals and appointments by connections not merit.

If I had to guess, this is how Noxus's new lore will paint it. A battle between the corrupt aristocracy and the soldiery that by Noxian ideals, should lead.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

You'll have to point to where I said that Caesar was in some way an innocent, or his ambition was entirely for the sake of others. Just looking at his history, as recorded by Suetonius (not exactly the most unbiased source, admittedly, but still one of the best we have), shows that Caesar bounced from conspiracy to conspiracy to gain power. Usually, with other populists but not always.

As an aside, why would you think I didn't know what a plebeian was?

Anyway, you're doing two things that historically are kind of looked down upon. 1) You're adding personal motivation where we don't have evidence for. From Caesar's writings in Gallic War and Civil War we know he was staunchly aware that the Republic was falling apart and that he had the necessary ideas to keep Rome alive, and glowingly about the common people and his own soldiers. Which throws some color on his motivations. It's easy to picture him as a corrupt tyrant, very easy. But his actions in office when taken alone are nearly always looked upon by historians as somewhat necessary to keep Rome from crumbling from within. Remember, after the Gracchi and Marius and Sulla and Pompey the Roman Republic was not in a stable position.

It can easily be argued that this is how great nations survive. After the civil wars that set up Caesar and then Octavian, Rome stabilized, remaining mostly expansionist until the Crisis of the 3rd Century. But after that, and the split the Roman Empire lasted through the Byzantines until the 15th century. Change is necessary for a nation to survive. When the old method proves untenable, as the Republic proved repeated for a couple hundred years, new forces for change arise from within to herald the necessary changes, or the nation is ultimately destroyed either through economic and social duress or an outside invading force.

Now again, I'd like to reiterate, I do not think Caesar's motivations where in any way close to entirely pure. He was a man who wanted to see himself crowned (probably), but that doesn't suddenly mean that he was not also invested in the lives of his soldiers and the common people. Humans are complex.

Which brings us to Swain and Noxus. While I would like to see a bit of moral complexity where Swain is both actively trying to benefit Noxus along with his own meteoric rise for power. I can definitely see Riot portray Swain as an entirely negative character playing everyone like a fiddle with his own mission, ready to screw over Noxus if it should further his shadowy goal (this leading to the action that turns Darius against his commander and the final showdown between the Swain and the Rose against Katarina and Darius and their allies to bring back the former true glory that was Noxus, or something). Ultimately, Noxus is still somewhat vague in what's actually going on. And it is definitely simpler a writing style to portray all politicians and backroom deals as bad, than show the complexity of state and how necessary those dealings are for the internal development of nations and empires.

Frankly, the morals espoused by Kled, would cause an expanding empire to self destruct in a few generation. There needs to be some form of stability and power structures or there would be so much infighting the entire history would look like the previously mentioned 3rd Century Crisis. Which is exactly against the desires of an expanding empire. But, we'll see if Riot recognizes this, or if they simply go with the noble martial soldiers verses the corrupt politicians storyline.

Lordk0z1 votes

The plebs thing wasn't aimed at you, but rather a semi-comical aside and footnote aimed at anyone else who might be in this discussion. Just thought I'd get this bit out of the way first.

I largely based Caesar's assumed motivations based on then general culture of the ruling class of the time. Glory to one's house and all that. Caesar is a product of his times, just as we were, and would have had these values instilled in him from youth. The Patricians were, as with many noble families, defined by familial standing and whatnot.

I do agree that in cases of crisis, like the one the Romans faced in Caesar's times, a dictator who can ignore the political trappings of the senate to act decisively, is in fact needed. Where I disagree with you is that the Republic becoming an Empire was a way to survive. In a sense, by consolidating power and making it harder for the Romans to fight eachother thanks to a single leader, it was. However, with it came it's own flaws, such as the Praetorian Guard, who became kingmakers and the shift from glory in battle and honoring the generals to honoring the Emperor only.

And yes, Caesar likely did what he did for the glory of rome as well as himself. I do not deny this. But to ignore the fact that Caesar sought to upend the political old guard, and thus needed something else to back him, namely the populist method of appealing to the plebs, cannot be ignored.

Now, since we're still on the LoL boards, back to how this would reflect on Noxus.

Kled's "ideals" are not something of the nation but a concept to which individual soldiers adhere to. There's very little of that which could be applied to the larger scale.

Now, whether or not Swain actively betrays Noxus, it is his actions and those he consorts with who I'm more worried about. He may want Noxus to remain strong, but it's not like the Black Rose agrees. The Black Rose was once a major power in Noxus before the rise of the martial meritocracy, and as such, likely stands opposed to it.

Merely categorizing the Black Rose and Swain as evil wouldn't be short-sightedly calling all nobles that. Rather, the Black Rose represents a single interest group whose goals do not coincide with those of the greater entity of Noxus. Whether Swain sides with Noxus, or the Black Rose remains to be seen.

As a sidenote: It's quite interesting the kinds of places you can find these discussions.

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