@ Any And All Rioters: How Important Do You Think Lore Is To This Game And Why?

Impetual·Feb 26, 2015·54 votes·17,572 views

Lately, it really feels like quality lore isn't a priority for Riot. They decided to announce a retcon to pretty much everything about the world of Runeterra (with an agreement to respect core champion themes), but they seem to be dragging their heels when it comes to actually writing any new lore in the retconned universe.

To be fair. they haven't even finished retconning Runeterra....but that's kinda the problem!

@Riot, you guys totally mishandled this retcon. If it had to be done (Which I don't think it did) it should have at least been done in one fell swoop.

But you guys are dragging this retcon out for months and even years. Please end it, so that we can move on.

Preferably you'd undo it, but I don't think you guys are willing to swallow your pride to that extent and admit the retcon was a dumb idea, assuming you guys actually realize what a bad decision it was, and the negative effect it is having on LoL lore.

**If you have to do it, get it done quickly, and actually start releasing lore developments again. All we've had in the last few years are champion bio's. **

Champion bio's don't add any development to Runeterra (for the most part), they just tell you more about its history. Runeterra doesn't actually change when we hear a bit more about its history, there isn't really any development, since there is no change.. None of the stuff that was there before is further developed, you just know more about it's history. Nothing actually changes.

I would love to actually see some lore updates again, like we had with the JoJ!

Rioters, please tell me why you personally think lore is important to this game, so that we can help bridge the gap between player expectations, and developer's mindsets.

140 Comments

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 26, 201542 votes

Hey, Impetual.

You asked for any and all Rioters - well, I don't work directly on League, but hopefully I can speak for one Rioter at least.

I really believe that lore is super important to League - but I also think it's going through some awkward growing pains at the moment. I think there's probably a universe where League could exist as a game removed of almost all setting and lore and story - like chess.

I absolutely do not think it should.

Lore can raise a game from being an abstract mechanical experience to a rich and involving experience that includes you in the struggles of willful entities. It infuses everything from the color of the bricks in a building, to the style of animation of an attack, to the mechanical counters of two rival champs. Ideally, it ties everything together, and every new champ, every graphical update, every story, short, animation or whatever all feel part of a cohesive whole. Even better when the lore goes beyond the game (without invalidating it) and we can spread our wings and explore every corner of it.

However, I believe that that is damn hard.

Remember, I don't work on League directly, but I try to help when I can. As a side project, removed from my usual role, I designed the Shurima tablet map that popped up recently - I was so, so humbled when some of you picked up on some of my historical influences. I put a lot of thought into the culture that would make such an object - the creator, his patron, how the map had changed hands over the years, what world events had marked its surface and what was known of the world before its creation, during, and after.

I really enjoyed doing that, even though it was the tiniest of things (and most players didn't give it a second glance, I'm sure). It's just history, as you said, however, but as a member of the 'any and all Rioters' group, that's all I personally can offer today.

rinsujoFeb 26, 20159 votes

Hi Bioluminescence, I don't think I've seen you around here before. Thanks for stopping by! (It's also possible I have seen you before and I'm just really bad with names. If that's the case, sorry! But still thanks!)

I'm glad we agree on lore - I too think that a completely stand alone game unaffected by lore is something that we shouldn't be looking at. And I definitely feel like there's been some kind of pains lately. I disagree on growing, since it feels like we here in the community aren't getting much of any lore aside from new champs recently... but I'm an outsider, so I could very easily be wrong.

I can also see how working that much Lore into an existing game can be hard. From this side of the glass though, we don't see that as much. We don't see the hours and time you guys (Rioters in general) put into this game, and it can be hard to bear that in mind when we get impatient. My hope is that even if it is difficult, you guys keep at it, and maybe we as the community could be happier if we altered our standards a bit - I can only speak for myself here, but I almost think I preferred the S1-S2 type lore - it wasn't as high-quality, but there was a lot more of it. Maybe it's something we could get used to if we took the higher-quality stuff less for granted.

So thank you for stopping by! And as someone who did get interested in the Shurima tablet, thanks for that! It's a wonderful addition to get interested in.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 26, 201528 votes

Hey, Rinsujo,

No - you're probably not as bad with names as you think - I've not posted much on the boards, as my indirect connection to League means I'm not the most informed on most subjects. Thanks for the welcome!

I completely understand the frustration - honestly, I'm a strong believer in the "player shouldn't have to care" school of thought when it comes down to internal struggles. It shouldn't matter how difficult it was to make something - all that matters should be the end quality. Or, in this situation, quantity too.

From what I can see, there is an internal commitment to improving both - and I can see your point about there being more 'pain' than 'growing' from what you guys can see. Do you do any programming? The closest metaphor I think I can make is that there's some 'lore refactoring' going on. Which usually means that no-one can see any benefit for a while (and it may in fact introduce bugs!), but behind the scenes stuff will be a lot tidier and easier to work with.

Again - you shouldn't have to care about anything like that. I don't post here much, but I do read these boards a lot (Story & Art, and Community Creations, mostly) and I know how much frustrated pain there is here. I'm pretty terrified that I'll get shouted down as an apologist for what's clearly an unacceptable situation.

For my side of things, in an effort to help, if I get another little side project like the Shurima tablet, I'll see if I can come here and expose the process as it happens - get some feedback and work with you guys to get the final thing. Not sure when that'll be (and I know that promises are a weak currency round here) but I'll try.

The Red WardenFeb 27, 201511 votes

I think the main annoyance people have and why they are so antagonistic whenever a Rioter posts about the lore is that it almost never feels like meaningful interaction. That isn't to say it isn't meaningful, just that it doesn't feel meaningful.

Take the champion info thread that is stickied to the forum currently for example. That thread has around a 1000 responses yet only 7 Riot posts and only 4 of them actually accomplished the purpose of the thread (answering questions about champions). Now all the responses might have ben great feedback for the team but because we got less than 1% of all the questions that were asked answered it doesn't feel meaningful.

A person may make a post about the lore that has great input for the lore team and helps them figure out things/ provide ideas, but since the lore team never replied (output) the thread looks like it was ignored. It gets worse if Rioters just respond with "can't say cause spoilers" or anything that feels like they are holding information back.

When people feel ignored, they become resentful and start building up false expectations about what a Riot response may accomplish. The reason Rioters get so much flak sometimes when talking about lore is that people feel like the lore team is ignoring them and that they don't care about player feedback. People want all their questions to be answered, but because of how rare Riot posts about lore have become the expectations for what they will answer are set astronomically high. When those expectations aren't met people become ticked and give the rioter flak even if the Rioter gave a response to the best of their ability.

I know I went off on a bit of a tangent there but what I am trying to say is that the less feedback Riot gives to players the more resentful they will become of Riot. If questions are answered more frequently Riot responses would see a lot less flak.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201517 votes

No I get it - I've never ever blamed the people here for the anger they're feeling. Feeling ignored or worse, taunted, is bound to piss anyone off, no matter how patient.

I can try to give you a glimpse through the window of what it looks like over here, even though I'm not fully informed myself, if that will help - but like I said elsewhere, you shouldn't have to care what the issues are over there - all you should have to care about is the end result (which right now, pretty much sucks, imo).

There are a few writers here, but only a few of them are specifically on lore - apparently the team isn't fully staffed up yet (I had a writing workshop cancelled this week because they couldn't spare time for it) and most of their days are spent in meetings. I don't know what the meetings are on - I don't have access to their calendars, but there are a lot of them. That might sound like I'm going "Wah wah - wasting time in meetings!" but I'm pretty sure they're actually pretty critical. No-one likes having their day full of meetings - generally meetings suck.

It can also feel that feedback goes into a black hole, never to be heard from again - but the delay between concepting or writing something, and actually seeing it in the game or on the site can be in the order of multiple months. I've seen things discussed at an early stage, forgotten about it, and then been surprised when it turns up real 6 months later. That's internally - to an outside eye that must seem even worse. I know they want to try to improve that turn around, because it's kind of insane. I don't have understanding where the timesinks are there, so I can't elaborate.

For myself - sometimes I know the answer to a lore question (occasionally) but not being one of the narrative team, I don't want to jump in and say something that might be outdated. I try to keep up with it, but there's so much going on that as someone on another team, I can't be sure I have the latest info. I err on the side that giving the wrong info would be worse than just keeping my mouth shut.

If I see another question that I think I know the answer to, I'll try to contact one of the narrative team and have them confirm that my understanding is correct, and try to post what I know. Might take a while, as that sort of email isn't really urgent compared to daily deadlines, but I'll give it a go. Please don't expect too much from just me, but I can try to do my part.

Slushi SimcambiFeb 27, 20158 votes

I know you have nothing to do with this.

But we were promised a discussion a month ago now with the Lore department, and we were left in the dark. The guy in the thread where this was proposed was home sick, working off the clock doing what people in his department should have been doing, and it really gave me the impression that the lore team was a disorganized clustered mess.

Two weeks later I still had hope when they made comments in a thread to come up with topics for the proposed discussion.

Now it is... much much later. And nothing.

It seems pretty despicable that lore would outright abandon us like this.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20159 votes

I understand that it's the lore team that you feel let down by - I don't want to cause some kind of 'us vs them' vibe. It's possible that I'm able to speak as freely because I don't know more. I honestly don't know. Today at work for me was a bit of a quieter day - which is why I've been able to reply as much as I have. I'm at home now, but I don't want to leave this hanging.

So I don't get any confusion - the 1k comment thread was the one that you're talking about, or another? I want to make sure I don't misunderstand, and/or go ask someone about the wrong thread by accident.

Jeddy017Feb 27, 201514 votes

You know,I would like to see a documentary of Riot's Lore team.Similar to the Frequencies documentary done for the music department. Seeing their work could help the fans understand or at least,see for themselves,the working environment of the lore team.

The Red WardenFeb 27, 20157 votes

That is probably the best response I have ever heard from a Rioter. You fully answered the question and gave multiple reasons why it occurred. You didn't just make it a PR statement that just says no, like other Rioters did in the past. You gave a answer that explains the problem and why it occurred.

I know that companies and most people like to keep that kind of thing private but because you answered it and made the cause clear I can understand it fully and am left with most of my complaints answered.

That is how Riot should ideally answer, with an answers with multiple reasons that fully answers the question. You answered to your full ability without any b.s. or hypocrisy. You have so much information and never once did I get the "I-know-better" sense that other responses from sometimes give off.

Thank you, that was the most complete answer I have ever seen from Riot. That is ideal feedback, some of the best I have ever seen.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20158 votes

Hey, Red Warden,

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't feel I have all that much information - maybe that's why I can give the answers that I do. I really hope there isn't much of that 'I-know-better' vibe going round - if you get any whiffs of that in the future, it's good to let them know you're getting that feel.

The Red WardenFeb 27, 20157 votes

It isn't that you know the most information, but that you answer the question with as much explanation as you can. The most in-depth info we received before about how the lore team were a few brief hinting that it wasn't well organized and that it was being restructured. You are the first person of Riot who actually went into depth explaining why it happens and why there are so many delays.

XulsigaeFeb 27, 20152 votes

Erm...what happened to the previous lore team(s)? Were they not replaced as people left or were shifted to other areas? Why is the lore team only now being restaffed?

It seems like Bard's lore is the last thing to be developed about him. The teaser was nice, but that's about all so far. When he was shown, we had all the abilities and how he worked and such, but the lore was absent. From my limited perspective, it seemed the lore was not being developed at the same pace as his other aspects. If so, why? If not, why wasn't it released at the same time?

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20157 votes

I've not been at Riot for a whole year yet - so I don't know the history of the lore team, I'm afraid.

As for Bard - I hope there'll be more stuff for him when he actually gets released. I personally find it really weird that, because of the PBE we have to kind of pre-release any new champs or skins because they can't keep it under wraps when it needs to get tested. But from what I guess, he's not officially 'out' until he hits live.

That sort of tempo sometimes trips me up - I almost forgot about DJ Sona when Bard was announced, and then almost forgot about Bard when DJ Sona was released. That makes me sound kind of scatterbrained.

Chromatic EagleFeb 27, 20153 votes

What do you mean as fully staffed? Is there a certain number of writers you are aiming for? A leader? Training people to be up to speed?

There's also been talk about how Riot can't accept story ideas from the fans. We're a bit confused about it.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20158 votes

The 'can't accept story ideas' thing, I think I get - it's very similar to other studios not opening envelopes with game idea submissions, I suspect. It's a weird, twisted, legal reason but I'll try to explain how that one goes.

Say I've come up with a game idea - it's great, it's awesome, and I know just the studio to make it! I write it all up, complete with character designs, feature list, backstory, and plot, and I put it in an envelope and post it to a studio lead I like the work of.

Now, unbeknownst to me, that studio has been working on a game in secret for the last two years - it has a very similar main character (square jawed white guy in his 30's?) and at least 4 of the features are the same.

The game comes out that fall, and much to my outrage - they have clearly stolen the best bits from my design and not given me any credit! Now, the lawyers want to be able to point to the envelope, unopened, in court so that they can prove that no - they didn't steal my ideas and give me no credit. If they opened it, then they can't prove that.

Heck - with all the best will in the world, it's really hard to say where inspiration comes from - they could have read it, not liked any of it, but then had a very similar idea suggested to them by the QA lead a month later and thought it might work then.

Now, I don't know if that's the same reason why fan submissions for story can't be read by the narrative team - it could be - it sounds very similar.

As for the staffing issue - I don't know how many people they want on staff, or how close they are to it. I just know that there was going to be a writing workshop that I was kind of excited about, but I was told most of the writers couldn't dedicate the time to it - and that maybe when the department was fully staffed up, it might get a bit better.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20157 votes

Gonna copy and paste this from something I wrote on another board. Basically, the envelope becomes Riot's property the moment it arrives at Riot HQ according to the below. Doesn't matter if it was ever opened or not. __

A little public service here. This is from the terms of use, for both the game and the website you are now using, which you can find a link to at the bottom of the site. I'm gonna bold the bits you should pay close attention to. _

"You hereby acknowledge and agree that you remain fully responsible for and are the owner of any and all Content. However, you grant Riot Games from the time of uploading or transmission of the Content, non-exclusively, all now known or hereafter existing copyrights and all other intellectual property rights to all Content of every kind and nature, in perpetuity (or for the maximum duration of protection afforded by applicable law), throughout the universe and you hereby grant Riot Games as a present non-exclusive license of future rights all such intellectual property rights to the extent owned by you. In the event that any of the Content is not licensable, you hereby grant to Riot Games and its licensors, including, without limitation, its respective successors and assigns, a perpetual, irrevocable, sublicensable, transferable, worldwide, paid-up right to reproduce, fix, adapt, modify, translate, reformat, transmit, or provide access to electronically, broadcast, communicate to the public by telecommunication, display, perform, enter into computer memory, and use and practice such Content as well as all modified and derivative works thereof,** without compensation to you.**" _

Now I'm no lawyer so I may be mis-reading this (feel free to step in and correct me Riot) but I believe this says that literally anything you post on the boards is immediately available to Riot to take, change, or use publicly without paying you anything.

Most of us never actually read the terms of use on things we use/sign. I would strongly recommend you read one from top to bottom at least once, it is illuminating. Good idea to skim the ones on programs you install too, sometimes they hide permission to install ad-ware inside those.

Bio, for your own safety in your position at Riot, you should not respond to this post.

Chromatic EagleFeb 27, 20156 votes

I understand it's your opinion, something that's hard to separate from Riot sometimes, and this is theory crafting, but this is the kind of dialogue that fans have been begging for. We don't have to agree, we can be angry, but at least we have an idea of how things work for the writers.

I have to ask, what's the difference between story ideas, champion, and skin concepts? Won't you encounter the same legal hurdles?

Also the summoners, many of us never saw them as overpowered. There was a power gap between the leaders and your average one. Even actual examples of overpowered actions could've been retconned or explained as very taxing. You never discussed it with us, or the direction Riot wanted to take the lore. We could've shared our opinions, give you ideas.

Ironically, now you're stuck in this position of releasing lore that doesn't contradict the league, making us wonder if the drama was worth it vs. contradicting the league and upsetting fans who enjoyed it, and continue to write fan fiction about it.

Then there's the case of retconning character personalities to be something entirely different, and often times not for the better. Xerath doesn't love magic for its own sake. It's a tool for revenge. Trundle doesn't care about his people. He's ready to sell them out for power. Karma isn't known as the peaceful diplomat with class. She's a mildly sexualized fighter. Cassiopeia has know public connections to her family or Noxus. We don't know what'll happen with Skarner. You're taking unique characters and turning them into generic tropes.

We don't know if you're trying to surgically retcon the league (let's be honest, you guys carved it out) or you're trying to rebuild or retell the story from the ground up. Part of me wishes for the latter.

Why are the bios taking so long? Is it worth having those paragraphs on the client? Did anyone complain about its length? Do you think people will bother reading your stories on the website? Why not make a meta thread linking the stories on the forum? At least it shows how much you guys got done and we can offer criticism.

We want to care what goes on behind the doors because it's obvious your team needs help. There is a pathetic lack of communication going on, and to be blunt, I don't know why it's being tolerated for so long by the company. If it were the gameplay or skins teams things would've changed and there would've been outcry forever ago. How does Riot plan on telling the story for now on? It hasn't been consistent. Does it need to be? Is it ok to have different forms of media? Why should we call these characters champions? Who are they championing?

MotajoFeb 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}I think there's probably a universe where League could exist as a game removed of almost all setting and lore and story - like chess.

I absolutely do not think it should.

I like the sound of this. If you don't mind me asking, how do you (you, specifically) feel about the great retcon? The lore team wanted to entirely separate lore from gameplay via retconning the League of Legends from, well, the League of Legends. It'd be cool to hear the side of the story from someone who seems to disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) with that direction.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 26, 201521 votes

Hey, Motajo,

Personally, I think the great retcon was a good enough idea that was done too early, and without the needed content to support it. I think someone (or several someones) made a mistake on timing and we got the worst of both worlds. We took away without giving back in return. Honestly, it's too early for me to tell if the retcon will be a great thing - it all depends on what content we release.

The relationship between the game and the lore - to me (whisper it) the lore is bigger than the game. The lore can be so much bigger and deeper and richer than a 40 minute match on the Rift - but the game absolutely comes first right now. It's a weird struggle - I came from a studio where story was king, so this is quite a change for me. I think the change that's happening is that, in the beginning - the game was the lore. Then, the lore got bigger and bigger, and started to take on a life of its own - but it was still beholden to the game. I think we might be moving to a place where the lore is the lore, and the game references parts of the lore. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, or even if that's how the rest of Riot feels on this.

I know you felt I might be someone who opposed the change - but I'm mostly in 'wait and see' mode, myself. There probably are a few Rioters who oppose the change - and others who are really happy about it. I know a lot of players are sick and tired of 'wait and see' - which is totally legitimate - it's been a long time now. I don't think there's anyone who thinks that how this has gone down was a great success.

ItemsGuyFeb 26, 201511 votes

This seems a bit sub-optimal, to be frank. Looking at the lore and the game as entirely separate entities that kind of share sideways glances every once in a while, is treating them like additive forces. Sure, if you like the game, you like the game, and if you like the lore, you like the lore--but they are divorced from each other, and sometimes that rift can be jarring (and again where DotA 2 may have spoiled me--how come Lucian can lane with Thresh and not have anything to say about it? Why does Caitlyn have nothing to say to Vi?).

Being intent on keeping them separate and seeing the lore as something that was constrained by the game (and even then, every story has constraints--you can't have magic in Saving Private Ryan, and nobody from Breaking Bad can interact with anyone from Game of Thrones, or leave the boundaries of their own, small worlds), instead of being set on using the lore and game as tools to enrich each other--with whatever constraints that may come--is lowering the potential value of either. Using them as forces that multiply each other will always be the better option, unless the value of one entirely eclipses the value of the other--and even then, that's a problem all its own.

Even if right now the game is an 8 and the lore is maybe a 5 on a good day (thanks, Sion), 40 will always be greater than 13.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201514 votes

I may have said it all wrong - I didn't mean that the game and the lore were separate and only vaguely connected. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

My view is that it should work a bit like Star Wars (though, with the recent expanded universe thing, maybe that's a really bad example). Star Wars is bigger than just the movies - there are books and games and comics and everything. Ideally they inform each other, but at the end of the day, the movies are king.

I agree that having things like VO between Thresh and Lucian (at the very least) would be an excellent addition - hell, I bet they've thought of that and want to include it if they can. There has been (from what I can see) an increase in the number of VO lines and taunts between champions, usually there to reinforce and play off the lore of the world and the champ relationships. There's not enough though, not yet.

In my head, I start to have problems with some of that introduction - having VO between champs is awesome, but then I start to get caught up on the weirdness of the game. Like, Institute of War or not, in my head if we were being entirely true to our champs, Lucian would probably rather die than work alongside Thresh. I don't know how, in game, we could authentically represent the depth of his hatred for Thresh (not to mention literally clicking on the lantern that contains the soul of his beloved wife) without getting in the way of the 5v5 PvP game. We'll always be a bit half-way in League - and different people have a different acceptable level of weird gameyness.

So I'm not sure I know (and luckily I'm not in charge of it) how to get it to be fully multiplicative across the board - but I really hope we can get better than just additive. Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.

Chromatic EagleFeb 27, 20152 votes

It may not have not been the best explanation, and might have been an example of all-powerful summoners, but there was a spell of sorts preventing hated rivals from killing each other. That never really stopped them outside of the League though.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201511 votes

True, but if you were actually Lucian, forced to work with Thresh (the killer and eternal torturer of your beloved wife) wouldn't you be more likely to leap off a cliff or 'feed' rather than help him?

Note, I do not advocate feeding if you get matched in lane with a Thresh as Lucian. Your teammates may not appreciate your hardcore roleplaying!

ItemsGuyFeb 27, 20158 votes

Ah, thanks for taking the time to reply!

I agree with you wholeheartedly--the story of League shouldn't only be experienced though gameplay. DotA 2 and even Dawngate (R.I.P) give context to their game and their characters via comics and the like, but these comics also respect the game they are telling stories about--Dawngate with their shapers, and DotA 2 with the Battle of the Ancients.

This does get tricky, in a game where a Lucian/Thresh support lane is possible, and Kayle can help Morgana walk into (and ult) the entire enemy team with her heal/buff and ult. This is also where I think having something like Summoners and creating numerous parallels between the game universe and the universe the audience lives in. Much like how not every League game match is a part of the LCS or some other major tournament, not every IoW League match is deciding the outcome of some major conflict (the Ionia vs. Noxus rematch, for example). The average game could be the equivalent of a practice match between summoners, with magically-generated replicas of champions bound to the Fields of Justice, so Thresh/Lucian lanes could exist without causing the universe's logic to crawl into itself and explode.

Likewise, the game could further distinguish the average match from the cool big ones in a way that doesn't exclude the vast majority of the playerbase (like the Ionia vs. Noxus rematch) via a separate, event-based "Lore Queue"--with limited rosters that allow players to contribute to the outcome of a conflict and ultimately shape (or at least interact with) the story of the game, in ways that are entirely impossible right now. Imagine if, instead of a neat but otherwise forgettable "Three Sisters" event to punctuate the Freljord arc (which, even though it ended with input from players via voting, was entirely inconsequential), there was a Lore Queue where a side could be picked, and your victories in that queue contributed to your team's points (with losses contributing less so, and contributions scaling to the size of each player pool)--then at the end of the event, once the scores were tallied, the victor of the conflict was announced and the story progressed accordingly.

It's a bit of a rough concept and would require more time and resources than the current static Lore Events, but it's an example of how the story and game could act as amplifying forces towards each other, due to having player involvement play a crucial role in both. No matter which way you look at it, the most important aspect of a game's story is the fact that it takes place within an interactive medium. When you play Super Mario, the princess isn't saved unless the player saves her. In The Last of Us, the story does not progress unless the player takes progressive action. In League, things just kinda happen as they happen, and if you think Lissandra is a really cool character, you can wombo combo the enemy team with your Ashe ADC and Sejuani jungler without any of them saying anything about it--and then continue to not have even the smallest effect on the world these characters allegedly came from unless you apply for a position within Narrative and are hired.

I appreciate that you want the best for the game, and your willingness to interact with the community and speak your mind says enough. Don't feel like you've got to apologize, especially after going out of your way to make the people that love this game feel a little bit more at ease! : )

(Also, double thanks for reading these super long posts. Brevity isn't my strong suit!)

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201510 votes

I can see you've thought about the friction between game and suspension of disbelief quite a bit. You won't like my theory, but I suspect that the Freljord event was an experiment to see what could be done with the smallest amount of upset to the normal game. As experiments go - it was ok, I think. Like you said, it didn't have a really meaty outcome, but the voting was a cool feature to test.

My theory is that the Freljord event probably wasn't as big a success as some people hoped, and that pushing through an bigger event than it could be a hard sell - especially (like your Lore Queue suggestion) it was so integrated into the game.

I'm sure you've seen it, over on Reddit, when a post about lore pops up, and half the replies are people asking Rioters to stop 'wasting time on story' and fix the bloody game. Usually those comments are from frustrated gamers too - who have seen bugs that seem to last forever. Now, mostly those comments are also a little mis-aimed, because the people who write are not the people who fix design bugs - but something that big would take all the departments to make.

I don't want to be doom and gloom - I know that there are plans to do new events in the future (woo! I knew something!) though I don't know (boo! Sorry.) when they're due.

I totally understand the importance of interactive narrative - though it wasn't one of the examples you used, I worked on Bioshock Infinite before joining Riot, which for all its foibles and weaknesses, did give it a good try on the story side of things.

I actually think that League and other games like it, are trying to break new ground in interactive narrative - what happens when a hundred Mario's try to rescue the Princess? Ellie doesn't have a thousand Joels all laughing (groaning?) at her jokes at the same time. MMOs have been trying experiments for years with big events, expansions, phasing, and the like, but most of the time you're still waiting in line behind other players, trying to hand in your 10 bear asses to the quest giver. There are exciting lessons to be learned - and experiments to be made! But it's experiments on a live game, with players who deserve frequent updates, bug fixes, and new releases - so the cost of failure can be a lot of sad people.

I sort of started out pessimistic and then swerved wildly optimistic there - sorry!

NarasimhaFeb 27, 20151 votes

Wait, you work on Bioshock Infinite? Kudos to you man, that was easily one of the better games I played for a while. Well, and then I found Deus Ex: HumAn Revolution. But still, it was interesting. Never got to play the DlC though. Out of curiosity, what work did you do on the game? Or are you not allowed to say?

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20158 votes

I think I can say - I was in charge of the team that made Elizabeth. You always wish you could have done more, but I'm fairly happy with how she turned out. The DLC, in my opinion, is a bit of an emotional rollercoaster. Some hate what it did to the story, and others love it. Like Marmite.

Electro522Feb 27, 20153 votes

You. Made. Elizabeth.

You, sir, just gained the most amount of respect I can give to a person.

I know Riot is a pretty good company, but how did they receive the honor of hiring someone like you?

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20157 votes

It's more 'miss', than 'sir', but please - you're making me embarrassed. There are a lot of very smart people at Riot who I am humbled to work with - and an even more impressive group of players who are so passionate that I honestly sometimes feel almost panicked that I'm not directly helping them out.

And I may have been in charge of the Elizabeth team, but it was a team effort - they were good people, the 'Liz Squad' and she'd not have come out like she did without each and every one of them. My peeps.

ItemsGuyFeb 27, 20154 votes

Nah, I get you on this. And as much as I love League, I know that it's doomed to never reach its potential as it is, due to its nature as a game that's been Live for what, six years now?

As much Riot intends for League to be an ever-evolving game that even their grandkids will one day play, it's been pre-emptively shot in the foot by its own humble beginnings. It has developed greatly since release (from dozens of new champions, to a few new game modes, to the updated SR and TT, to champion updates, remodels, and touch-ups, and so on), but every improvement Riot may want to make to the game must first push through the resistance created by long-established expectations and a littany of other things. Even if we look at champions alone, at the current pace they are being improved, we won't reach parity for the next 6 years at the very least.

Not to mention the old tech you guys are stuck with! I certainly don't envy you there. But as captivating as the evolution of LoL is to watch, I hope the Rioters involved with LoL eventually take everything they've learned and allow themselves to start over from scratch, free of the many limitations and complications that are holding LoL as we know it down. And hopefully by then I'm in a spot to jump in and help out in a more meaningful way than posting mini essays on the boards, but that might be a way off!

(Also, as far as the Hundred Mario Conundrum goes, I hope Narrative's eventual answer for that isn't "You can run around and jump as Mario in this abstract void, while having the possibility of watching a recording of Mario platforming through a level and saving the princess"; it's certainly a huge challenge that Narrative will hopefully face, and I'm interested to see where they go with it. Experimentation is nice, as much as it makes the testing ground that is LoL a bit hard to get invested in 100%.)

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 20157 votes

I hope it's not as doomed as you say - I know that while there's a lot of, I think they call it, "tech debt" in the engine, they are working hard to upgrade it from the inside. Hard stuff, and slow work, but it is coming along.

I remember hearing someone describing as like trying to build a plane while falling from the sky - I think it's more like trying to turn one plane into another, while you've got passengers aboard! Sure, it'd be easier to do it in a hanger with a brand new plane, but... actually, my metaphor breaks down around here.

And I know that with every update, and every new event, new pipelines and processes are created or refined so next time it will be a little faster and a little easier. Some things you can't rush (like playtesting a new kit - or you shouldn't) but there are new tools being written and inefficiencies being removed all the time.

As an aside, getting a bit scared by this thread now - hope you don't mind if I start winding down. I had hoped to get a game in before bed, and it's getting late.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20156 votes

As for the "Lore Queue," google "League Factions." The Lore Queue already exists, though in a very limited format. I wish with all my heart Riot would adopt League Factions as a play-mode.

ItemsGuyFeb 27, 20155 votes

I am very aware of it, and it's something I'm a huge fan of. There's certainly a good amount of player support behind it, but as long as Riot chooses a non-interactive path for League's story, we're limited to mashing buttons on a disconnected controller while the big kids play their games.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20152 votes

Like, Institute of War or not, in my head if we were being entirely true to our champs, Lucian would probably rather die than work alongside Thresh. I don't know how, in game, we could authentically represent the depth of his hatred for Thresh (not to mention literally clicking on the lantern that contains the soul of his beloved wife) without getting in the way of the 5v5 PvP game. We'll always be a bit half-way in League - and different people have a different acceptable level of weird gameyness.

OH MAN it is good to hear a rioter say that! This whole Thresh and Lucian duo lane story problem is something I have posted about perhaps 10 times across various boards. Yeah there is no way those two would EVER work together. It made sense with the Institute because summoners were controlling their actions; Lucian couldn't just shoot Thresh because his summoner wouldn't let him.

I have nothing but respect for that problem, and if Narrative just rolled by and said, "We don't know how to handle this problem unfortunately, so we're sorta just going to work around it." That would be fine! Oh I would probably flame them a little for it since the problem didn't EXIST before the Retcon, but I'd forgive them. A little explanation and small apology would be fine assuming it was backed up by actual content shortly afterwards. The lack of actual content is the biggest problem right now, as you have said in this thread.

CupcakeTrapFeb 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

OH MAN it is good to hear a rioter say that! This whole Thresh and Lucian duo lane story problem is something I have posted about perhaps 10 times across various boards. Yeah there is no way those two would EVER work together. It made sense with the Institute because summoners were controlling their actions; Lucian couldn't just shoot Thresh because his summoner wouldn't let him.

I'd propose a different solution, or set of solutions. I don't really like the puppetmaster-Summoner idea; it feels creepy. I imagine that in most cases it's more like the Champion hiring the Summoner. (Presumably, it's "really" the factions hiring them both, but yeah, it's the Champions that get the adulation from the crowd.)

(1) At the risk of being too cute with this: obviously, not all matches played can represent "real" matches, because the number is just too high. I assume that some very large percentage of matches are either "could be" hypotheticals, or else some kind of simulation within the League universe.

(2) That said, I imagine that part of a Champion's oath (and a Summoner's oath) is to, in normal conflicts, fight for whoever calls them forth. So that might mean Garen and Darius fighting together on the same team. It's business. As for the causes—who knows? Maybe, in ordinary, low-profile disputes, nobody's even told who's fighting for what side until it's over.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20152 votes

Cupcake! I'm a huge fan. That said, I can't disagree harder!

Personally I love the puppetmaster-Summoner idea. I see Champions allying themselves with summoners for political advantage/access to archives/because they're imprisoned and would rather fight, then having no control during the match. But then again I like dark stories. It's more fun if it hurts. I do think some champs might willingly sell themselves into service for money (Bilgewater)

I assume all matches are real matches. I don't see any reason one champion couldn't be summoned by different summoners at the same time; We are talking about a magical world here, the rules of reality don't have to be the same. Another post on this board mentioned that matches could be played with spell-copies of the champs; Makes sense to me.

As for 2? I'm sorry, but no matter what oath I have sworn, I will do ANYTHING to kill the creature who killed my wife and tortures her soul daily. I will betray any oath, befoul my own soul, to save hers.

You and I have disagreed on this subject before, it's ok with me that you don't see it the same way. Just know that myself and perhaps others don't see it your way.

CupcakeTrapFeb 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Cupcake! I'm a huge fan.

Aw, thank you! I've been away a while due to RL reasons. I'm trying to get back into it.

{quoted}

That said, I can't disagree harder!

Personally I love the puppetmaster-Summoner idea. I see Champions allying themselves with summoners for political advantage/access to archives/because they're imprisoned and would rather fight, then having no control during the match. But then again I like dark stories. It's more fun if it hurts. I do think some champs might willingly sell themselves into service for money (Bilgewater)

I get what you mean. As is often the case, sometimes you've just got to make a call and go with it. I imagine that someone could make a pretty good LoL mini-verse based on Champions being imprisoned and forced to fight. I just prefer a different vision.

Certainly, some Champions are forced to fight, but I'm talking mostly about the monstrous Champions. (Or Cho'gath, who seems to be playing along; even the Summoners probably don't believe they've really got him under control.)

{quoted}

I assume all matches are real matches. I don't see any reason one champion couldn't be summoned by different summoners at the same time; We are talking about a magical world here, the rules of reality don't have to be the same. Another post on this board mentioned that matches could be played with spell-copies of the champs; Makes sense to me.

Well, it's the spell-copies idea that I was referencing. I think I put an off-hand reference to "imprints" in The Harrowing. (Actually, the other problem is that the population of Runeterra doesn't seem big enough to accommodate the existence of literally a hundred million or more Summoners. I don't lose sleep over handwaving that issue.)

{quoted}

As for 2? I'm sorry, but no matter what oath I have sworn, I will do ANYTHING to kill the creature who killed my wife and tortures her soul daily. I will betray any oath, befoul my own soul, to save hers.

You and I have disagreed on this subject before, it's ok with me that you don't see it the same way. Just know that myself and perhaps others don't see it your way.

In a match, there's really no opportunity to do anything about that. As for why he doesn't attack him on the grounds of the Institute, well, he'd probably like to, but perhaps he realizes it just wouldn't do any good. He needs to hunt him down in neutral territory.

FinnicalFeb 28, 20153 votes

In a match, there's really no opportunity to do anything about that. As for why he doesn't attack him on the grounds of the Institute, well, he'd probably like to, but perhaps he realizes it just wouldn't do any good. He needs to hunt him down in neutral territory.

I suppose during a match shooting him in the back of his head would only result in him respawning, so it would be kind of ineffectual, if satisfying. I picture a little story where Lucian constantly stalks Thresh, but Thresh knows it and doesn't leave the grounds of the institute when Lucian is watching. Thresh laughs at Lucian's fury and impotence, hiding behind the Institute's rules.

However, I don't think people who are killed in the halls of the Institute respawn, I'm pretty sure Lucian would just start a fight anytime he could find Thresh. Maybe the summoners would be aware of the problem and actively prevent it. Either way there's a story there as long as the Institute exists.

ItemsGuyFeb 26, 20158 votes

I think a few of the points you make here are a bit strange, given the decisions that Narrative (or whoever is working with Narrative, since according to IS they have very little to do with everything people associate with them) has elected to make over the past what, couple years now?

Mentioning the inclusion of the audience into the struggles of the characters is strange, since it is now official that any and every moment of gameplay that players experience in League of Legends is non-canon, and that we are just playing as characters that share the name and likeness of characters in the story of League of Legends. That it's now essentially a Super Smash Bros. style game where we can go "Well what would happen if X fought Y!" except we are given no reason to actually become invested in X or Y, because League of Legends is the only game we can play them in and the media they exist in elsewhere is scarce at best (if you're lucky like Azir or Lissandra and get an arc dedicated to you), and practically nonexistent at worst (Hecarim is a huge, scary, undead centaur; probably could've figured that out after looking at him).

We are given VOs where champions either give us a glimpse at their personality while not saying anything of consequence or interacting with anybody in any meaningful way (Braum, as much as I love his archetype), or are devoid of personality and have 10 minutes where they make vague comments about one thing (Kalista with her revengeance, Azir with his SHURIMUH)--although DotA 2 may have spoiled me here.

It's strange, because the in-game entities that were meant to directly represent the players and what could have been set up as a unique tool to allow them to interact with the universe of the game (summoners) were wiped from the story of the game, alongside the Institute and the League that this game is named after. Everything tying the players to the world of the game they were playing was chucked out in the name of "creative freedom" (which has yet to be exercised), character interaction has been limited to "they're rivals!" or "they live in the same region!", and the stories we are given are filled with the clichés that Narrative used to subvert in interesting ways--"chosen one"s, deus ex machina, and characters defined by cool magic things they found as far as the eye can see.

There are many ways I can describe the current state of League's narrative, but "strange" is the only word I have to describe how I feel after reading your post--because every point you make about why narrative is important resonates strongly with me, yet very few of those principles seem to be present in the game whose universe once inspired me.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201519 votes

Hey, ItemsGuy,

Sorry for making you feel strange about this - if anything, I'd recommend you err on the side of anger; I'm not connected to the narrative side of things directly, and I can't speak for what they're doing. You and I agree on how important narrative is - and I'm pretty sure the writing team agrees too - but you should remain unconvinced until we deliver.

I suppose what I'm saying is - I personally would rather you keep your heart hardened until there is real, concrete, development that will soften it naturally. Good intentions, and all that.

Maybe that's weird - asking you not to give us an inch - but you and all the players (and the players within Riot) keep everyone honest and unsatisfied with the status quo. It really fills me with regret* to know that you were once such a fan and have had that investment poorly used - I've been there and done that.

*Saying 'filled with regret' seems a really weaksauce reaction - it's like I know how that feels and hate it, and I feel bad and guilty about it, but I don't know how I can directly help, so it's frustration too - which I know is a well understood feeling round here.

I'm going to go answer your post about the lore and the game not supporting each other now, to make sure that each subject is easily followed by anyone else reading.

TerraRisingFeb 27, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Hey, ItemsGuy,

Sorry for making you feel strange about this - if anything, I'd recommend you err on the side of anger; I'm not connected to the narrative side of things directly, and I can't speak for what they're doing. You and I agree on how important narrative is - and I'm pretty sure the writing team agrees too - but you should remain unconvinced until we deliver.

I suppose what I'm saying is - I personally would rather you keep your heart hardened until there is real, concrete, development that will soften it naturally. Good intentions, and all that.

Maybe that's weird - asking you not to give us an inch - but you and all the players (and the players within Riot) keep everyone honest and unsatisfied with the status quo. It really fills me with regret* to know that you were once such a fan and have had that investment poorly used - I've been there and done that.

*Saying 'filled with regret' seems a really weaksauce reaction - it's like I know how that feels and hate it, and I feel bad and guilty about it, but I don't know how I can directly help, so it's frustration too - which I know is a well understood feeling round here.

I'm going to go answer your post about the lore and the game not supporting each other now, to make sure that each subject is easily followed by anyone else reading.

I'm not going to lie. It's a bit refreshing to read someone "associated with Riot" (if that's the correct terminology) justify the collective anger and frustration we've felt towards Narrative, through it's multiple incarnations, broken promises and outright lies, over the past few years.

I'm just sorry it took three years for someone at Riot to say it. I've had a three + year investment in the game's lore and only recently have I given up on Narrative even wanting to have a friendly relationship with their fans. All that wasted time has also tainted me on the rest of the company, to the point that I've just about stopped trusting anyone associated with Riot.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201514 votes

Hey, TerraRising,

I'm still just a Rioter - but you can consider me a player who just happens to be at Riot if you'd rather. Three years is a long time to feel like you've not been heard, and while I've not been here that long, and words are just words - I'm really sorry.

While not on League directly - I am part of Riot and that makes me as responsible as anyone else here for making sure that you, and all players (hell, even if they don't play League!) are treated right by us. Hell even if I wasn't 'responsible' - you play games, you like League - how could I treat any one of you any worse than the other players I game with.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20155 votes

Damn dude, you don't have to take responsibility for stuff that happened before you even arrived that you clearly weren't involved with. We like you, you're doing fine, lol. You honest attitude is exactly what we need to feel better about this stuff. If we could get these kinds of personal anecdotes from people who are actually involved more often I'm sure we would be a more cheerful crowd.

Electro522Feb 27, 20158 votes

I dont want to be that guy, but could we give this guy a raise?

Mirage NightFeb 27, 20156 votes

To be honest, he seems to be a better Community Representative the the actual community reps. Very well articulated, no beating around the bush, and willing to give an opinion.

AmbushIntheDarkFeb 27, 201511 votes

The fact that you have actually openly stated that the great retcon has been poorly handled at best, and that we are justified in our anger and distrust of Narrative has made you my single favorite Rioter. Its reassuring to know that there is at least someone working at Riot who can not only realize that this has been a problem, but actually have the courage to come here and admit it.

Hopefully this can motivate those who actually have power to change things to ACTUALLY CHANGE THINGS for once.

I hope youre going to PAX next week so I can give you a high five and confirm you are actually real.

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201510 votes

Hey, AmbushInTheDark - I think it was poorly handled, yes. That's my opinion, and it could be that there are really good reasons why other Rioters don't come in and give their feelings on it - positive or negative. I know I've learned a lot from the whole thing, and I'm going to be extra vigilant that anything I work on, for the rest of my life, doesn't happen the same way. Maybe I'll do it wrong some new way, but that's learning!

Sorry - not going to PAX next week, I'm off to GDC instead. But at least asking if I'm real is a question I DO have the answer to! I'm definitely n... wait. No I am real. Yes. I've got a certificate around here to prove it.

ItemsGuyFeb 27, 20155 votes

Hot damn, my man! This is more refreshing to hear than you'd know. Even though you don't work on League directly, this is the Riot I've been starting to miss. While I want to give some of your colleagues all the benefit of the doubt in the world, being asked to sit and wait and trust that things will get better Soon (TM) is starting to get me antsy--like sitting at the DMV and seeing every alphanumeric combination but yours getting called.

Being asked to hold you guys to your word and not pipe down until you deliver on it is the kind of straightforward honesty and dedication to quality that drew me to Riot in the first place.

Sitting down here and talking to us is all you can do, but don't underestimate the power of that simple act. Knowing that our numbers have a chance of being called--that our concerns are at least being heard and acknowledged--is better than deafening silence. I appreciate the hell out of this. [stock image of a business man giving a firm, yet earnest thumbs up]

RiotBioluminescenceFeb 27, 201511 votes

Oh. Soon (TM). You know those laughs that go a bit manic and then almost turn into sobs? That's how I feel about Soon (TM). I know other people think it's funny - and it's a bit of an injoke with other players - but I'm fine not seeing it again. (To be clear - you are using it exactly correctly, and it's well meaning Rioters using it that I'm unsure about.)

Thanks for not shouting me down - I know that it would be the easiest thing in the world to take the opportunity to really go at someone (anyone) for how it's been. I also wish I was quicker at replying so I could answer more.

FinnicalFeb 27, 20158 votes

I'm more in the Bioluminescence for President camp right now.