Riot should've closed the League through writing rather than a retcon.

Dunderflump·Oct 21, 2014·151 votes·10,249 views

You had the story in the perfect place to get rid of the League: LeBlanc and Swain were already plotting together. The Black Rose really doesn't give a damn about Noxus; they very well could've been scheming to sabotage or destroy the League and bring back all-out war to Runeterra for their own ends. It would've been really interesting seeing where you went with it, especially with the lead up to it.

But you didn't do that. You retconned it.

We could've found out what happened to Ashram or who/what Jax is. You could've wrote in a scandal that obliterated the League's political influence, leading to its eventual dissolution.

But you didn't. You retconned it.

Brand and whatever other terrors the summoners had imprisoned could've escaped, damaging or destroying the Institute and ruining the League's credibility.

But you didn't do that either. You retconned it.

All the outlying champions (Zed/Syndra/Jinx or the Void/Shadow Isles factions) who would react aggressively to the League's sanctions and attempts to control them could've attacked the Institute.

But you didn't even do that. You retconned it.

Yeah, I know that the League of Legends was a poor framework that you only invented for the game, but the thing is that you had put so much effort and love into the lore that it actually became good. The Judgements. The Journal of Justice. Ionia vs. Noxus. Nothing you've released in the past couple years compares to the quality of writing you used to put out. The Freljord event? It was decent if you ignore the destruction of Volibear and Trundle as characters. You made Trundle as absolutely generic as possible, which is especially sad considering how his original lore broke the 'I'm-a-generic-fantasy-troll' archetype. The Shurima event? You actually removed content in addition to retconning several characters in order to shoehorn in Azir, a character who is totally devoid of story or realistic motivation.

Please come to your collective senses.

Please.

142 Comments

DeathByWaffleOct 21, 201445 votes

They really could have. And you know what? It would have been so much more efficient doing it that way. Instead of having to waste time literally rewriting every single champion's lore, they could simply expand upon it and add upon it. It would have simultaneously enriched the lore AND solved the whole "league is too confining" reasoning that Riot is using.

But nope. Gotta do things the way that literally no one is satisfied with. Lul.

LabcownOct 22, 20141 votes

I honestly think there had to be some sort of internal deadline for this new lore line, and by the time this deadline hit without some meaningful innovation, the decision was made to just delete the old world.

Destroying the IoW and having everyone break their ties with it does exactly what you and Riot said they want to do:

Puts focus on champions rather than some magical "invulnerable" institute. There's not some magical warden keeping everything in check anymore, so champions and nations ARE able to reach whatever potential they want, and invites conflict to be more accessible as clashing perspectives start to rear their head.
Provides a nice continuity to spring board individual and nations lore.

"Without the Institute what does X do now?"

Only issue with this VERY reasonable and logical idea is that Riot came out and announced their new lore plan at the very end, without input and without the chance to alter their plan "should" someone (or everyone) come out and say some better way to do things.

DeathByWaffleOct 22, 201410 votes

I honestly think there had to be some sort of internal deadline for this new lore line, and by the time this deadline hit without some meaningful innovation, the decision was made to just delete the old world.

Destroying the IoW and having everyone break their ties with it does exactly what you and Riot said they want to do:

Puts focus on champions rather than some magical "invulnerable" institute. There's not some magical warden keeping everything in check anymore, so champions and nations ARE able to reach whatever potential they want, and invites conflict to be more accessible as clashing perspectives start to rear their head.

Provides a nice continuity to spring board individual and nations lore.

"Without the Institute what does X do now?"

Only issue with this VERY reasonable and logical idea is that Riot came out and announced their new lore plan at the very end, without input and without the chance to alter their plan "should" someone (or everyone) come out and say some better way to do things.

The problem is that they literally could have achieved both of those points WITHOUT retconning the IoW out of existence. They could have easily made something happen to destroy the IoW in a more present tense. I mean, the lore was already hinting heavily that something sketchy was going on, what with the previous head of the IoW dying mysteriously and J4 being implied to be LeBlanc in disguise. Why not have a conspiracy wrought by the Black Rose that ends up destroying the IoW? It puts focus on champions and creates a similar but better platform to spring off of for future lore to the retcon.

DiahaneOct 22, 20147 votes

I honestly think there had to be some sort of internal deadline for this new lore line, and by the time this deadline hit without some meaningful innovation, the decision was made to just delete the old world.

Destroying the IoW and having everyone break their ties with it does exactly what you and Riot said they want to do:

Puts focus on champions rather than some magical "invulnerable" institute. There's not some magical warden keeping everything in check anymore, so champions and nations ARE able to reach whatever potential they want, and invites conflict to be more accessible as clashing perspectives start to rear their head.

Provides a nice continuity to spring board individual and nations lore.

"Without the Institute what does X do now?"

Only issue with this VERY reasonable and logical idea is that Riot came out and announced their new lore plan at the very end, without input and without the chance to alter their plan "should" someone (or everyone) come out and say some better way to do things.

Yes, the issue is lack of discussion, I agree.

But I also want to point out that the lore never depicted the IoW as indestructible, nor omnipotent nor omniscient. The JoJ showed plenty of story progression with the IoW involved too, so it stands as a counter-example.

LegostrikeOct 21, 201423 votes

I agree. Personally I agree with Cupcake Trap and his factions game-mode take on the League, the league is ever present, powerful, but not an insumountable blockade. War is possible, because the league is not god.

(the mentioned factions: http://leaguefactions.net. check out some of the lore they've got going.)

CerbearusOct 21, 201422 votes

"Oh you remember all that stuff that has happened the last 5 years? Well just forget it because we don't like it"

PhoenixSlayer13Oct 22, 201420 votes

Guys, let's put aside how we feel about the Institute. Put aside how you feel about characters. Hell, put aside how you feel about the lore itself.

Can we at least agree that straight retconning five years of material wasn't the best idea?

DayVGamingOct 21, 201416 votes

I can remember when I FIRST starting playing League, I played Jax because in his lore he was the dude the actually ran the League. It was obvious he was the best but he was disguising it, with his huge win streak and self-regulated weapons restrictions as ways of flaunting it.

A powerful character with a lot of 'attitude'. Don't mess with the champ, right?

Now that's all gone and he's gonna be some sort of forest ranger or something idgaf about at all =(

#RetconTheRetcon

PryotraOct 21, 201414 votes

I am in complete agreement. The only reason smash bros even works is that they didn't have to build any new characters from scratch. They took well established characters from existing games and put them into 1 fighting game. And that is all they needed to do.

Honestly, with the advent of the N3DS version of Smash Bros, why would I want to play league when I could get the same lore on the go almost anywhere? The Gameplay literally is the only reason I stick around, and thank god the balance team has finally gotten enough time to catch up. The relaunch/retcon team seems to be moving pretty fast, but at least they are pumping something in.

What I don't understand is why they feel like one team needs to move at a pace that is too fast for them to notice mistakes. I would rather a bunch of slower teams that pumps out quality content over the half-@ssed rush jobs on retcons we seem to be getting.

CupcakeTrapOct 22, 201414 votes

Yeah, I know that the League of Legends was a poor framework that you only invented for the game, but the thing is that you had put so much effort and love into the lore that it actually became good.

The League of Legends is ("was") an excellent excuse plot. It was also an example of authors embracing a constraint and building something rather interesting around it. A Babylon 5-style international meeting place within a fantasy setting was by far League's most distinctive element. Constraints are helpful in that they force you to innovate, and they tend to shake up your preconceived ideas, which otherwise might end up rather too "pat". And there's something to be said for a game's lore having some place for the game itself.

Now given total freedom, Narrative has converted Runeterra into a pastiche of generic fantasy and science fiction tropes.

ImpetualOct 23, 201411 votes

Riot had/has one of the greatest opportunities to redefine their their game than any other has had after release ever. And they messed it up.

Instead of using the lore progression tied to character releases, they have decided to make ALL of their character releases non-cannon until they properly fit with respect to their current game, League of Legends, which is currently trying to pretend that "The League of Legends" never actually existed in Runterra, WTF?

How stupid does this move sound?

It sounds bad. The solution: Remove "The League of Legends" from League of Legends. What a sad time for this game.

PrinceVertOct 21, 201410 votes

Sometimes I wonder if Riot even know their fucking lore anymore, because I can't believe that of doing that, destroying the league and expand the lore of tons of champs, they lol retconned

StridentOct 21, 20147 votes

Nothing you've released in the past couple years compares to the quality of writing you used to put out.

No way. Have you read Malphite's lore? Basically, he's a rock that lived in harmony with a bunch of other rocks and then he got summoned to the League of Legends. Then he joined because meh. The single short story of Xerath's origin was, while by no means award winning, better than anything else I've read from Riot's narrative team.

I fully support the retcon removal of the League of Legends, simply because its existence and the presence of Summoners was pretty much unsalvagable except for the continuation of jokes and gags. The other option is to pretend that the League of Legends is a metaphor for the League of Nations and that Swain is Hitler/Stalin, Noxus is the Soviet Union/Third Reich, and the next Rune Wars is World War II, and then the lore will be in perpetual world war until its eventual resolution, which will lead to the formation of the United Legends, and then we can release the titular sequel.

Watch out everyone. The game by Riot Games will be called the United Legends, you heard it here first.

Do I think the lore is in a bad place right now, due to all the loose ends that have been left? Of course. On the other hand, I look forward to what we have next now that we are moving towards a solid foundation with which to base narratives on- one that features actual character development.

OrbvOct 21, 201412 votes

Not all of their writing was good, that's to be accepted because a lot was done after Malphite which was good. Then they started getting really bad. After the Journal of Justice ended, all Lore became horrible.

I don't see what one can look forward to if Shurima is any indication of what they are capable of. Shurima botched at least 5 champion Lores and created a much worse one in Azir. They aren't good at writing, they haven't done any development of periodical writing in years (everything is in bursts), yet they are taking away plot to create...from scratch...

They are digging themselves into a hole.

The5lackerOct 21, 20143 votes

After the JoJ ended the lore became less of a fucking inconsequential joke. The Shadow Isles relaunch gave horrible lore? And that was fucking 3 years ago! The Freljord event? Amazing! The interactions between Jinx and Vi? Actual characters? By god it's a christmas miracle!

The Institute of War is the hole that Riot is digging themselves out of, and they figured the best way of getting out of a hole was to climb out of it and start building somewhere else, not keep digging where they already are.

OrbvOct 21, 201415 votes

What aspect of the Freljord event was amazing?...they added Lissandra, butchered Trundle so that she would have 1 friend, essentially grouped up Ashe with teammates MENTIONED IN THE JoJ, and redid Sejuani to make her popular with a lower DPS and a situational ultimate. The event was inconclusive. Did you EVER hear about how it ended? They announced that there would be a resolution, and there never was one. You clearly didn't read anything outside of the pretty images that appeared on the homepage.

The Shadow Isles, was good. I give you that, it was their best relaunch despite making twisted treeline a little crappier gameplay-wise. Every 3v3 team complained for around 6 months.

The interactions between Jinx and Vi are not limited by the Institute nor was that planned. They've explained that it just happened to work out. I mean there were a plethora of other unique champs that could have had interactions with existing champions but they never did because they're highly inconsistent.

If you honestly believe that they were in a hole with the Institute of War then you are probably too excited about change to care that it had very little effect at all to do with the champions. There is always a before and after that could have been adopted, but they rather just drop it. To change drastically is okay, but to abandon what was existing is ridiculous. There's a reason the most retconned writing in comics is also the least referenced/least read/has the lowest sales.

And if you think Jinx and Vi hold anything on Swain and Leblanc, Leblanc and Jarvan your opinion is faltered. The only interesting aspect of that was that 2 songs were developed for them and 1 music video. The fan base of the Black Rose is far larger with more dedicated fans.

StridentOct 21, 20141 votes

I don't see how fan bases of character interactions contribute anything to a debate.

The Institute of War had a huge effect on where the lore went, which is one of the reasons Kalamanda and Frejord went pretty much nowhere. It was too frustrating to figure out where the lore would go with the League of Legends having the potential to intervene when it's almost always preferable that they don't. As a League fanfic writer, I'm well aware of the contribution the League has on the narrative.

They changed Trundle because he was just a random dude that absorbed the ugliness of his fellow trolls.

The JoJ was only successful in two regards: one was summoner letters, and the other was gags. The Institute of War was really only useful for gags. Riot has in later years shown that they want to move towards a serious lore for their game.

DiahaneOct 21, 201413 votes

They changed Trundle because he was just a random dude that absorbed the ugliness of his fellow trolls.

This is, like, just your opinion, man. [Cit] Jokes apart, there were people (not me, specifically, I've never been into Trundle) who liked him. For instance, Sneak Dog, of whom you may find a lot of posts about Trundle's retcon. He was not pleased at all.

The JoJ was only successful in two regards: one was summoner letters, and the other was gags. The Institute of War was really only useful for gags. Riot has in later years shown that they want to move towards a serious lore for their game.

So do you count the Kalamanda arc as a gag? Because that was pretty good and successful. Besides, I think the IoW as a plot device had its perks, as I expressed elsewhere on the boards. It was, most of all, the only really original thing about the setting and created as much possible interactions as restrictions it imposed. Both things could have been used as a feature, just how the law about underage mages not being allowed to cast magics is a plot device for some situations in Harry Potter.

StridentOct 22, 20142 votes

Harry Potter is also a narrative about a group of protagonists that all belong to the same faction, The Order of the Phoenix and Hogwarts, with a centralized villian, namely Lord Voldemort. League of Legends is fundamentally different because every champion is a hero/anti-hero. They are all the the protagonists of their own narrative, and as such should recieve due respect as characters. This is not the case with the existence of the League of Legends, because unfortunately, the League of Legends is in fact, its own protagonist, and is an obstruction for the development of individual champions as characters.

Even more so, they put several champions' goals on hiatus. Nasus and Renekton can't ever fight a fight to the death, God only knows why Kayle and Morgana are in it.

Why are Jinx, Nami, Thresh, and Lucian's lores all devoid of joining the League of Legends? Because it literally makes no sense for them to do so, except they have to, because the game is tied to the concept. Nami's lore is such a joke because if she does join the League of Legends, she's either dicking around doing nothing or the League just solved all her problems for her. The League lore was clearly in shambles with the League of Legends itself.

The Kalamanda arc was haphazardly resolved after several years of hiatus because they couldn't figure out any conclusive way to end it except by finding corruption in the League itself. Not every narrative can be solved that way. The arc really emphasized how the conflict had to be forced open the longer it went on.

I just read Trundle's old lore, and it exemplifies several of the problems I've discussed above. His story isn't about him, it's about this tribe of trolls that just make him a steaming pile of crap. Then he joined the League of Legends, because he had nothing better to do and hoped they would solve his problems for him. He seems precisely made to appeal to people who just want to troll around, and as I said, Riot clearly wants to move towards a more serious lore.

Sneak DogOct 22, 201411 votes

Old Trundles story was about a naïve troll that wanted to be equal with his tribe members, made a great sacrifice for it and only then discovered they were a bunch of assholes. He became cynical and left the tribe and ventured into the world on his own. I don't know how this isn't a serious lore.

I can't take you seriously if you don't respect other peoples opinions. Just like I can't invest in the new lore if it doesn't respect the old lore and characters. I've read your posts in this thread and you just seem respectless towards other people opinions if they're not the same as yours. Your posts seem borderline aggressive towards the other persons.

The League was a restriction in the plot that made the setting more interesting. However, if Riot isn't good enough to write with such a restriction in mind, then I can understand why they want to remove it. This does mean that the setting and all the stories written in the setting are inherently less interesting. On top of this Riot seems to just adjust characters to fit their new stories instead of keeping them the exact same and only writing out the League. I think this is a terrible thing to do as it sets a precedent that every character can be changed again a year from now. Why would I care about the character if it could be retconned without resolution of his old story a year from now?

StridentOct 23, 20143 votes

Well, starting off, you're definitely right, I've been very passive aggressive lately (Basically, I got pissed off after being up for 24 straight hours and actually had to edit my posts to look less aggressive), and that's because I've explained the same thing to the same people over the course of dozens of posts. Part of that has to due with the fact that I decided to post in this thread where everyone else supports the OP (it's the OP's thread of course- most of them aren't here because they don't agree). The other is that every argument I have with people devolves into them claiming "Why can't we just have this nice, little comfortable, familiar old lore instead?"

In particular, they stop speaking of how the lore can be better, and it instead devolves into them claiming about the ways the League can be made to work, which is a totally different argument. I don't want more of the same, I want League's lore to be BETTER, and this is why I've gotten sick and tired of responding to posts that insist that the League is a just a meeting square with no negative impacts on the world. I'm fairly okay with the debate that was ORIGINALLY in the post, i.e. retcon versus closing the League, but I'm pretty done with the debate about why the League just does not fit into the story anymore.

What do I dislike about Trundle's lore? Mostly the whole paragraph posted in the background section of his old lore. It was so terrible, that I found it difficult to take his League judgement seriously, which was admittedly fairly decent it comparison. But that still didn't change one of the key points of my argument as a whole, which is: "Characters should not have their major plot conflicts suddenly 'fixed' by the magical League of Legends, and thus instantaneously become fufilled and complete characters without going through the journey."

If someone actually acknowledges this point or addresses it with, god forbid, "reasoning", instead of just claiming, "No, I don't think so", or "We can just write it this way and all will be fine," then I would be happy to debate the values of the League of Legends towards generating narrative(s) (very important, s!) that are superior to stories without it.

Which is really sad, because I've debated myself and I know a wide variety of arguments that can unhindge mine, but no one has given me anything close.

AxinhedOct 23, 20147 votes

But that still didn't change one of the key points of my argument as a whole, which is: "Characters should not have their major plot conflicts suddenly 'fixed' by the magical League of Legends, and thus instantaneously become fufilled and complete characters without going through the journey."

If someone actually acknowledges this point or addresses it with, god forbid, "reasoning", instead of just claiming, "No, I don't think so", or "We can just write it this way and all will be fine," then I would be happy to debate the values of the League of Legends towards generating narrative(s) (very important, s!) that are superior to stories without it.

Which is really sad, because I've debated myself and I know a wide variety of arguments that can unhindge mine, but no one has given me anything close.

If the problem with the League was that it was limiting and gave insta-resolution (which isn't true for the vast majority of the champ-roster), then the obvious recourse is to... correct it? It seems the best solution rather than editing out the entirety of the old premise and trying to put up a new one, complete with new problems.

Let's take Trundle as an example. You say it's already finished in two lore pieces. Why not use all that narrative muscle to make it open ended rather than create an entirely new character? Say that Trundle wants to find alternatives to a cure, or perhaps he wants to be a king/chief/leader of his own tribe. Then he undertakes tasks for the League, who helps him if he plays X games in the Fields of Justice or does Y quest to retrieve Z McGuffin for Summoner Whatshisname. Along the way, he finds friends, fights enemies and somehow gets tied to a bigger plot to save the world.

Boom, an open plot.

If a story is a problem, fix it. If one plot point is giving you trouble, edit it. Even the "boogeyman" that is the League of Legends can be toned down to allow looser story-restrictions, and that can be done without reducing its power or importance. It just takes a creative mind.

StridentOct 23, 20143 votes

The following elements must be modified for the League of Legends then:

It's tie to the game League of Legends by the mention of Summoners controlling them, as this aspect reduces the League to requiring all champions end up joining the League of Legends, which is contradictory to its inherent morality as a United Nations-esque organization. So now we isolate the organization into a coalition of Factions that essentially settle disputes through League matches on a regular basis, but does not involve an evil faction.
Tone down the power of the concept of Summoners so that champions can take the centerstage. Otherwise, the problem where the League of Legends is constantly overshadowing its champions will continue, or the champions belonging to the League would be given an implied higher purpose.
Rewrite the lore so that champions no longer join the League of Legends because of X, and instead join because they are loyal to their faction in one way or another, in order to allow for personal character growth without the League of Legends being the direct salvation of their troubles.
Your proposal then essentially makes the League of Legends some kind of guild aligned with Lawful Good. Demacia and Noxus are parallels to the USA and Soviet Union during the Cold War.
Retcon every champion including Trundle so that their lores are no longer designed to be solved by joining the League of Legends and introduce new story elements to their progression.

There, now that doesn't sound too bad... the only problem is that we have so fundamentally changed the League of Legends from its original design, that it is now a guild of sorts that has almost nothing to do with the original, except in name.

Which is why I am not convinced by this argument that we can change the League of Legends to fit the goal. I've shown you that it is possible to rework the League of Legends, but it would have to be a guild devoid of other champions, most summoner power, and is all around sort of misleading, in fact. And it doesn't really contribute anything to the story than something we could just reinvent altogether entirely. In the end, this new "League of Legends" is still a huge retcon, and I doubt the people who are complaining would be satisfied. You might as well name this new organization something else, or better yet, come up with something better.

A common misconception that people make about stories is that all you need to do to make a story work is creativity, and then any idea can foster. This is untrue; track record and implied canon will always impact your future work. The canon that the League of Legends lore established in season 1 and early season 2 was so poor that Riot realized that they would have to essentially retcon the majority of the previous lore. The League of Legends cannot be be fixed without reducing its power or importance, simply because they have the power to subjugate their champions (i.e. Brand, Nocturne, Cho'Gath).

Sneak DogOct 23, 20147 votes

I agree summoners should be toned down in power. However, they never were all-powerful nor in full control of the summoned. They joined minds with the champion.

The IoW was indeed to convenient solving a lot of champions' troubles (Ahri for example), but joining it because it's a meetingplace of many powerful factions would seem valid to me.

Trundles story wasn't solved by joining the League, he simply had nowhere better to go.

I'd prefer toning down the IoW but keeping its essence around over retconning it wholly. It means we still have the immersion in the game, we still have the IoW connecting all the champions and giving them a place to interact without murdering eachother immediately (they can do that outside) and we have a way to have independent champions without them just wandering Valoran aimlessly.

BoswickOct 23, 20145 votes

Strident, you make a ton of good points, but I still haven't seen you explain why riot couldn't have simply written out the iow instead of simply retconning everything and leaving jax, brand, noc, etc in limbo until they finally get around to writing them new lore two years from now.

LeeDarkOct 21, 201413 votes

Frankly, I think Xerath's original League Judgement was better than his new story. The new Azir and Xerath stories aren't bad, but they make it abundantly clear that the Institute of War and Summoners were NOT holding the writers back. We didn't suddenly get some magnificent writing or a superb epic. We got the same stories they wrote before... just sans EVERYTHING that came before. A retcon always needs to be justified, or it shouldn't be done, and they have failed to adequately justify this one.

StridentOct 21, 20141 votes

I disagree. Should the League of Legends have existed, I would've cared far less about the Azir story, because it would go absolutely nowhere after that. Xerath's simple existence means League intervention in one way or another, the threat of character death would not exist, and etc. I know from writing League fanfics that the Institute of War is an extreme hinderance to the freedom a writer can take with his/her narrative in this universe, because the tension is always twice removed.

moogle890Oct 21, 201418 votes

Why would Azir's story stop? He could join the League and get caught up on what's happening i the world after the thousands of years he's been gone. He could interact with various champions and other characters while there and learn about the world that he is now in.

Most fanfics I've read use the League as a meeting place and then let the characters go off from that. It doesn't stop them from doing anything just because they're in the Institute of War.

StridentOct 22, 20141 votes

And that's completely NOT the direction the story should take. It's like putting everyones' goals on perpetual hiatus.

"So Azir, when are you going to get around to killing Xerath?"

"Uh, some time, soon (TM) I guess... I need to fill out the appropriate paperwork and forms to the Institute of War."

It just does not make any sense. It's an illusion of a narrative, not actually going anywhere.

You saw why Nami's lore doesn't include the League of Legends. Because the conclusion is that either she's just dicking around and her goal's on perpetual hiatus, or you see the same formula with Ahri where the League magically just solves all her problems for her in exchange for her joining.

Literally, the conflicts between champions is completely trivialized by the existence of the League of Legends. Why are two champions who hate each others' guts both belonging to the same organization, and this same organization basicaly guarentees that they both can't kill each other? Does it turn out exactly the same as Morgana and Kayle's lore, where they both joined so they could fight each other forever? The problem is that you can start off "okay" and then never get anywhere. It's why the Frejord conflict couldn't be resolved.

moogle890Oct 22, 201410 votes

I don't think Xerath can really be killed. He's a being of pure energy, how can you kill that? And what's stopping Azir from having other goals? He still wants to revive Shurima, and he needs to learn how the world works to do that. By joining the League he gets access to various resources to help him figure out this stuff. AND, believe it or not, he doesn't have to stay there. He can still go eff around the world and find new things on how to potentially get rid of Xerath.

Nami's lore is somewhat controversial. I always assumed she joined so that the League can help her find a Moonstone. That's what the League does, it HELPS people. The way they help can be from helping someone find a magical artifact to preventing everyone from magically nuking each other. I always saw Nami's lore as incomplete. Yes, she needs to find a Moonstone, but where would one get one of those. We'll hold off on that for now. Even if she gets the Moonstone, she can go back, do whatever she needs it for, and come back so that she can always have a supply of Moonstones, or better yet get more allies/training to PERMANENTLY get rid of the thing plaguing her people.

Ahri joined because she wanted to find another way to become fully human without sucking the souls out of people. The League has the most powerful mages (but NOT omnipotent) in Runeterra, they'd easily be able to help her. AND in the meantime she can do other things.

Morgana and Kayle are effectively immortal. I always thought they were simply biding their time until the League did crumble and then they'd kill each other. OR what if another person from their world came to Runeterra and told them that one of the sides won. That'd be a major turning point for the sisters. They'd get to develop that way. Stuff can happen outside the League building and the story can progress.

StridentOct 22, 20142 votes

If Xerath can't be killed, that's some pretty thick plot armor he's wearing. The question isn't, "How do we write the lore with the League of Legends in it?" The question is, "Is this preferable over not having the League of Legends?"

The answer is no, it's not! Why can't Xerath be killed? That's just an excuse to put the story on hiatus, which is clearly what we are trying to avoid!!!! If the writer wants to, he can kill Xerath with Azir. And joining the League solves Azir's problems? How is this interesting? That's just a poor way to advance the narrative, not an interesting way to develop it.

You're prioritizing the creation of haphazard narrative for narrative's sake over the development of characters, which is precisely the issue the League of Legends generates! This is what we want to move away from!

Ahri joined because she wanted to find another way to become fully human without sucking the souls out of people. The League has the most powerful mages (but NOT omnipotent) in Runeterra, they'd easily be able to help her. AND in the meantime she can do other things.

That's the problem, isn't it? She doesn't solve her own problems, she just gets the best of both worlds because a magical plot device called the League of Legends exists. Her narrative has effectively ended and she is now a side character. My favorite champion is Ahri and I think her narrative is a piece of crap because of this.

A story for story's sake accomplishes nothing! You're totally missing the point because you're considering the League of Legends in this gag-slice of life format instead of as a lore with serious characters and serious conflicts.

moogle890Oct 22, 201410 votes

So Ahri is wrong for looking for help from a powerful organization that could potentially help her? She didn't know what to do, these people might. She's not a side character for asking for help. She can develop her character still. She can do other things, she can be her own main character in her own arc. League has a SHIT TON of characters, they'll all me Main and Side characters at one point or another.

Also, how is the League not serious? It's not a slice of life (because it's a fantasy world mostly) but the characters don't have to be fighting all the time. Caitlyn and Vi still are the Piltover police, Garen and Jarvan still run the Demacian military, Ahri can still do things outside of the League of Legends, etc.

The League of Legends is not the Fairy Godmother that simply grants everyone's wishes. Ahri may have went to the League for help, doesn't mean they know exactly how to solve her problems. They'd have to research exactly how they could accomplish this, and in the meantime, Ahri can have her own adventures. She can still have serious conflicts that don't ahve to revolve around the League of Legends.

StridentOct 22, 20143 votes

So Ahri is wrong for looking for help from a powerful organization that could potentially help her? She didn't know what to do, these people might. She's not a side character for asking for help.

Once again, you are considering this from the wrong perspective altogether. The question isn't, "Is Ahri wrong to seek help?" The question is:

Why are we giving her everything and resolving her conflict in a heartbeat instead of developing her as a character through her own personal conflict and goals?

The argument that the League of Legends is not the Fairy Godmother is a pittling attempt to justify its existence. This is not ABOUT the League being omnipotent- it's about it being a plot device that stymies the ability for a story to develop or end conclusively.

You are totally thinking of the League of Legends in a slice of life because you are putting random interactions between champions before their individual development- Instead of developing based on their goals and motivations, you are making the argument that you'd rather see them get sidetracked- i.e. less of a lore, more as a slice of life where each character is just an insert whenever convenient.

You've made the false assumption that characters cannot meet each other outside of the League of Legends, and are ignoring the myraid of reasons why it inhibits narrative freedom.

moogle890Oct 22, 201410 votes

There's a lot of stuff that happens between when a character establishes their goals and when they actually accomplish them. Any character has to go through numerous interactions with numerous characters before even getting remotely close to their goals. League has soooooooooooooo many characters that in order for every single character to get any sort of development they will have to interact with other characters before accomplishing.

It's rather hard for a character to develop without other things to interact with. What i'm getting from you is that you want Ahri to solve her own problem, even though she has no idea how, and she shouldn't waste time interacting with other characters and should just focus completely on her goal even though she has no resources or knowledge on even how to start looking for it.

StridentOct 22, 20141 votes

Arguing that Ahri needs to solve her problem herself is very different from saying she has no character interactions! I am saying that she shouldn't be getting this convenient outlet that resolves her primary character conflict (becoming human). The League is not just some meeting square where characters can meet each other- otherwise your argument for that would make sense.

Furthermore, who said she has no resources or knowledge on even how to start looking for it? That's completely baseless. A writer can introduce these elements if he/she wants to- which is PRECISELY what we want over the League of Legends just solving it for her. If the League of Legends isn't there, the writer can just introduce something better.

moogle890Oct 22, 20149 votes

The League is not just some meeting square where characters can meet each other- otherwise your argument for that would make sense.

See this right here is a problem that many people on the forums are trying to resolve. This is EXACTLY what the League of Legends is. It is a place where all the Champions and the other leaders of the world meet up for either League matches or to discuss various things involving Runeterra.

The League of Legends was created to STOP world shattering conflicts through the use of the Fields of Justice and Champions. However, this also means they can have various meetings discussing what's happening in the world and what they can do to fix it. (This can include peace treaties, explorations that need funding, or just a place where people from different city states can meet without worry of them killing each other on sight.) I made a thread about how the League is a cease fire zone where people can actually converse with each other without worry. Sure Noxus and Demacia would probably still glare at each other, but in this building there is a ceasefire and they can actually discuss things and cause development.

There is no reason to delete the League of Legends. I do agree it needs numerous changes to make it work, but by no means should it just not exist anymore. I will keep fighting the good fight that the League is a good thing and can work beautifully in this world if the writers would just try.

While it's been fun "discussing" things with you, i must now focus on a paper i've been procrastinating on. Farewell.

KapparothOct 22, 20144 votes

Here's a thought; why does it matter? I'm not trying to spark a flame war, I just want to know, why does it matter? This is an honest question and I want an actual answer why does Lore matter for a game that has no story elements readily apparent to be present in the actual game?

moogle890Oct 22, 201411 votes

Because there are people who are passionate about the Lore. We're a very small percentage but we do exist. We've been ignored and neglected for years now just doing our own thing with the Lore, and then all of a sudden the Lore team shows up out of nowhere and tells us everything we've loved up to this point no longer exists. That's infuriating. After years of silence, we're told everything we've had to go on at this point is null and void.

Sure this game doesn't offer its Lore as a prime incentive to play, but if they make enough money on Skins, Champions, and eSports to get by easily, why shouldn't they focus a bit more on the Lore than they have in the past.

KapparothOct 22, 201410 votes

I actually signed onto this game thinking that it had some sort of story. I don't really read reviews for F2P games since there's no purchase necessary, I just figure out if the publisher is legit or not. Anyways, since I didn't look at any reviews and only saw screenshots of the blue and purple fountains, I thought it was a game where you proceeded from one end of the map to the other, clearing out enemies along the way. When I figured out that there was no "story mode" for the game I was really disappointed, but then I found out about the old Journal of Justice, and I read all the issues, wondering why they cancelled it. I love the lore and think it's amazing, trying to develop lore for a project myself, but the way I see it, Riot doesn't give a damn about the silent minority and that complaining is going to get absolutely nothing accomplished.

DotintheparadoxOct 22, 20146 votes

I'd say it's a silent majority, since most of the player base doesn't give a damn about the lore.

We're the people who read everything, and go on the boards, that's a really small population of the total community.

And then there's the fact that we can only talk on the boards, you post this stuff anywhere else (Reddit, DA, Twitter, forums...) you get down-voted into oblivion or ignored. So far over the last few weeks, we've had 2 members of the lore team actually post, (Carnival Knights, and Jaredan, who is actually respectable, although I was not polite on his discussion board, and I apologize for that.) and one of them likes to make jokes,(Carnival) a lot. So it's been getting pretty irritating.

kitcat300Oct 22, 20147 votes

It helps give purposes to what you are doing, making you want to play more. By that logic, the champions don't need to have personalities that we can become attached too.

DiahaneOct 22, 20147 votes

Here's a thought; why does it matter? I'm not trying to spark a flame war, I just want to know, why does it matter? This is an honest question and I want an actual answer why does Lore matter for a game that has no story elements readily apparent to be present in the actual game?

Because this game used to have said story elements and they were really evident in game. If you don't know or didn't notice, at the start champions had very few voiced acted sentences and a lot of them were about you being a summoner. Besides, in-client there was a nice button bringing you to the latest issue of a Journal, a fictionary newspaper, called Journal of Justice. That made you immerse in the world of Runeterra by having you pretending to be a summoner reading his ordinary newspaper in his free time. It had no fancy first-person narrator stories nor ones ran by an omniscient narrator, thus you knew characters only through facts therein reported and through their occasional words released to the journalists. That made the world feel more realistic because, let's face it, I'm no Draven and I couldn't ever be Riven nor a monster for self-evident biological reasons; the old lore gave you the possibility of imagining yourself, just as you are, as a highly professional mage in a different world. And just like in real life you get to know said world only through the means and facts accessible to you, like the JoJ, with all possible related issues. The Crystal Scar map itself was introduced following a story arc. Story was present in the game for all the time they actually developed it, that is to say, season one. Then they ceased any significative lore release for years and so it seems this game was ever lacking it. But it was not so at the start. The now so frequent champions' special interactions are there for this reason, because an underlying story was always present. Without its lore, the game is about some Muscle Dude fighting Blade Lady, while Son Goku impersonator ganks Mr Hyde impersonator. And that is not exciting, you can't immerse in that. It's a button masher and they get boring after a while.

DreamspitterOct 21, 20142 votes

You had the story in the perfect place to get rid of the League: LeBlanc and Swain were already plotting together. The Black Rose really doesn't give a damn about Noxus; they very well could've been scheming to sabotage or destroy the League and bring back all-out war to Runeterra for their own ends. It would've been really interesting seeing where you went with it, especially seeing the lead up to it.

But you didn't do that. You retconned it.

We could've found out what happened the Ashram or who/what Jax is. You could've wrote in a scandal that obliterated the League's political influence, leading to its eventual dissolution.

But you didn't. You retconned it.

Brand and whatever other terrors the summoners had imprisoned could've escaped, damaging or destroying the Institute and ruining the League's credibility.

But you didn't do that either. You retconned it.

All the outlying champions (Zed/Syndra/Jinx or the Void/Shadow Isles factions) who would react aggressively to the League's sanctions and attempts to control them could've attacked the Institute.

But you didn't even do that. You retconned it.

Yeah, I know that the League of Legends was a poor framework that you only invented for the game, but the thing is that you had put so much effort and love into the lore that it actually became good. The Judgements. The Journal of Justice. Ionia vs. Noxus. Nothing you've released in the past couple years compares to the quality of writing you used to put out. The Freljord event? It was decent if you ignore the destruction of Volibear and Trundle as characters. You made Trundle as absolutely generic as possible, which is especially sad considering how his original lore broke the 'I'm-a-generic-fantasy-troll' archetype. The Shurima event? You actually removed content in addition to retconning several characters in order to shoehorn in Azir, a character who is totally devoid of story or realistic motivation.

Please come to your collective senses.

Please.

I like new trundle.

And Karma.

Still wish the league existed though.

ALSO....what DO you think of the new Azir/Xerath short stories OP?

OrbvOct 21, 201417 votes

New Trundle has the same look as WoW, Warcraft 3 and Dota Ice Trolls. So his appearance is no longer unique. A diseased troll who took on the curse of his nation because he had great healing powers is not original, but unique.

Karma was an elegant fan lady (only champion in a full dress), now she's a moving billboard in japanese fighting garbs. Her appearance is bland. Her being a diplomat of politics vs her being a balance of peace and war are very different. Her new identity is boring.

Not even referencing their kits because I know people liked the before and the after, but League of Legends is turning interesting concepts into uninspired characters. Both characters have lost their dispositions and are now just grump fighters. How anybody can prefer the new trundle and karma to the previous iterations in terms of personality means that you really don't care about the champion to begin with.

DurzakaOct 21, 20141 votes

the thing is, with your suggestion, writing the league out of the lore and creating an all-out war wouldnt make any sense from gameplay. Now that league is over, why are champions still fighting on the Rift? Why is Velkoz not absolutely ripping the world apart? Or Chogath? etc. etc.

DunderflumpOct 21, 201410 votes

the thing is, with your suggestion, writing the league out of the lore and creating an all-out war wouldnt make any sense from gameplay. Now that league is over, why are champions still fighting on the Rift? Why is Velkoz not absolutely ripping the world apart? Or Chogath? etc. etc.

The rift revamp coming could've been made to be a pseudo-Runeterra or part of it.

DurzakaOct 21, 20145 votes

the thing is, with your suggestion, writing the league out of the lore and creating an all-out war wouldnt make any sense from gameplay. Now that league is over, why are champions still fighting on the Rift? Why is Velkoz not absolutely ripping the world apart? Or Chogath? etc. etc.

The rift revamp coming could've been made to be a pseudo-Runeterra or part of it.

and the artificial control of void creatures? Or people being on the same team who wouldnt even look at each other?

How about the arbitrary victory condition of killing the nexus?

Without Summoners, the rift is a completely arbitrary experience, which is what they have made it. Lore cant justify it.

BoswickOct 21, 201419 votes

the thing is, with your suggestion, writing the league out of the lore and creating an all-out war wouldnt make any sense from gameplay. Now that league is over, why are champions still fighting on the Rift? Why is Velkoz not absolutely ripping the world apart? Or Chogath? etc. etc.

The rift revamp coming could've been made to be a pseudo-Runeterra or part of it.

and the artificial control of void creatures? Or people being on the same team who wouldnt even look at each other?

How about the arbitrary victory condition of killing the nexus?

Without Summoners, the rift is a completely arbitrary experience, which is what they have made it. Lore cant justify it.

This is what really confuses me about the whole thing. Why do they want to divorce plot from the game? Call me crazy, but i thought video game lore was supposed to support and expand upon the world of the video game. Case in point: Every other video game ever.

Also the "IoW is too limiting" excuse is bullshit. Cupcake trap has been doing just fine for years, and even Gasp connected gameplay and lore even further with the factions game mode. Hell their are half a dozen cool story ideas involving the League in the OP.

TwoPacalypseOct 22, 20147 votes

Did you forget that the old lore stated the Nexus Crystals were extremely powerful magical artifacts?

"With the dissolution of the League, control of the nexus crystals went to whoever could get their hands on them first. Champions who hated each other found themselves banning together in unlikely alliances in pursuit of the power needed to control the burgeoning new world let in the vacuum of the Institute of War's absence."

Is this good? No, because i have no writing talent. Does it make sense? YES

Its not the only thing going on, but it at least provides a justification for the actual map itself. They could have followed it up with a NEW GAME MODE.

MAYBE WHERE YOU PLAY AS PART OF WHATEVER FACTION YOU LIKE FOR CONTROL OF THE NEXUS CRYSTALS. ITS SO OBVIOUS.

Not only that, but i find this particular argument really pedantic. "Why are the champions in the rift" is the same exact thing as asking "Why is master chief fighting in Blood Gulch there's no such place in the solo campaign".

BoswickOct 23, 20146 votes

In halo, its fine to have MC fighting in blood gulch because it doesn't need more or story, its multiplayer. If you want story you play campaign. Were in agreement though, even with your "no writing talent" that idea is already better than retconning everything. An official factions game mode would be great and tie lore into the game itself, as its supposed to be.