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Could we have a discussion on how to even out Pantheon with the rest of Mount Targon?

Best KhaZix Void··9 votes·1,369 views

It feels like he's suffering some of the same Issues old Sion did, he's just a walking parody, not an actual distinct character.

Honestly. Leona and Diana have unique characteristics to go along with their thematic (The Solari shield, the scythe/sickle, The sunlight v moonlight etc.) and they feel like they're actually a living part of the universe. Like they actually could exist in Valoran. Pantheon doesn't feel this way even slightly. He's just "We need a Spartan. Okay Done." Disregarding his kind of goofy model, he doesn't feel unique or like he has his own personality or place in the LoL Universe. It's kind of disappointing because of how cool it could be to see the differences between the religious (Leona, Diana.) and the Martial (Pantheon.) sides of the Rakkor. I think some sort of update to Pantheon is a really good jumping-off point for the fleshing out of the rest of Mount Targon and really establishing their place with the lore-giants of Shurima, Demacia, Noxus, Ionia. etc.

11 Comments

Narasimha2 votes

While I do agree that Panth could use some touching up on, you're really citing the right reasons why. Pantheon isn't so much of a parody as a paragon. He represents someone at the pinnacle of traditional warfare. He is master of the shield and spear, a Spartan who faces any obstacle undauntedly. Even if he just wants to be a baker. Although it may sound cliche, he still holds the spot as the only person of his kind in LoL The problem with Sion was not only was he a walking cliche, but he wasn't even unique with the presence of Urgot. His rework gave him a more solid niche, as an undead JUGGERNAUT.

Best KhaZix Void4 votes

While I do agree that Panth could use some touching up on, you're really citing the right reasons why. Pantheon isn't so much of a parody as a paragon. He represents someone at the pinnacle of traditional warfare. He is master of the shield and spear, a Spartan who faces any obstacle undauntedly. Even if he just wants to be a baker. Although it may sound cliche, he still holds the spot as the only person of his kind in LoL The problem with Sion was not only was he a walking cliche, but he wasn't even unique with the presence of Urgot. His rework gave him a more solid niche, as an undead JUGGERNAUT.

I mean in the sense that he's just a stereotype and nothing beyond that. He doesn't have personality. I mean, look at someone like Riven, or Darius, Or Garen. They have personality, and character. It feels like somebody who has a place in the universe. They're interesting. Pantheon just feels like he was shoved into the game to satisfy a niche, without stopping to give him a place in the universe as a character.

A Superb Villain2 votes

Well, in the early days of League, that was generally the idea with most champions, such as Sivir essentially being Xena, Warrior Princess, Ezreal being a teenage Indiana Jones, Veigar being a Black Mage with some personality thrown in, and so on.

Also, I love your summoner name.

NeoJusteBelmont2 votes

Now look, Pantheon is always going to be my favorite, outdated model and 'walking parody' alike. I do welcome changes and fleshing out to the story, though and personality is one thing I'd like to be touched on. The only 'connection' thing he got so far is 'He's Leona's childhood friend'. Pantheon certainly has a personality, he's serious, battle-hungry, and dedicated about the art of war. He's out to seriously show you how you lob your spear into the heart of the enemy. He wants to represent his tribe the best he can, how was that different from Garen and Darius? You can say that Garen is all protective and stuffs like that because it's what Demacia represents, while as of Darius, he's calm, collected, yet brutal and has a distaste on weaklings, the stereotype of most Noxians.

Pantheon is like that, he represents his people at Rakkor. Leona is also serene and protective because she represents the 'good' side of Solari, which coincidences with her personality. Diana is ruthless and vengeful because she represents the lost and betrayed tribe of Lunari.

Now the problem with Pantheon, which I'm going to admit, is that... NOTHING differentiates Pantheon with 'Rakkor Warrior #43241'. We could even say that Pantheon is just another Rakkor warrior, only the best there is in combat, but it's like saying the Rakkor tribe is a tribe full of Pantheon copies. It takes a JOKE to make him look a little unique, yes, the baker joke. While I appreciate the joke and find it the funniest joke in League, I think it's not a good way to express a distinct trait.

My suggestion is that not only Pantheon gets more in touch with the Leona-Diana rivalry (I dunno how it'll go, though, anything goes, although I kinda think that Pantheon-Leona is more applicable here because Diana was raised in the Solari sect since birth, so they'd be like totally strangers), if there's another champion migrating to Mount Targon (kind of how like Nasus, Renekton and Skarner changed into Shurima natives after Shurima retcon), maybe linking up with Pantheon could be the way to go or something.

Just my two cents. If Pantheon, with all his flaws story-wise and model-wise impresses me like this, I'm sure the new story modifier for him will be great and he still attains the place as my favorite. I don't think you even need to completely overhaul his skill set, after all, when Sivir got modified, she still retains her original skill set.

Ulric Greatsword2 votes

I feel like Pantheon gives us the opportunity to see how the 'ordinary Rakkor' feel about the 'religious Rakkor'. He might feel indifferent to the Solari but still respect them, or he might be deeply religious and proud of his friend Leona for joining them. As you said, Pantheon isn't terribly unique from a literary perspective. I think the key to making him more than just the martial paragon of the League is to give him a meaningful relationship with other members of the tribe.

Best KhaZix Void2 votes

I feel like Pantheon gives us the opportunity to see how the 'ordinary Rakkor' feel about the 'religious Rakkor'. He might feel indifferent to the Solari but still respect them, or he might be deeply religious and proud of his friend Leona for joining them. As you said, Pantheon isn't terribly unique from a literary perspective. I think the key to making him more than just the martial paragon of the League is to give him a meaningful relationship with other members of the tribe.

I completely agree. I'm not asking for a major change to his character or dynamic. I don't want them to change what makes Pantheon, Pantheon. The Balls deep, No retreat warrior that Leaps in and doesn't leap back out until everyone around him has a terribly unhealthy amount of spear holes in them. I'm just asking for them to flesh him out a bit more. his motivations, his relation to the rest of the Rakkor, (is he a political leader/general like swain or Karma? a warrior elder/ respected warrior like Master Yi? or just some ridiculous paragon of might that's just meant to symbolize the perfect rakkorian lifestyle? (Darius, Sion before he died.) Right now he's just "That guy from Targon that isn't Leona or Diana, He's good at fighting." He has sooo much potential to show the rest of Targon, it seems wasteful to not really dig into that and flesh it out for everyone to see.

Best KhaZix Void2 votes

Now look, Pantheon is always going to be my favorite, outdated model and 'walking parody' alike. I do welcome changes and fleshing out to the story, though and personality is one thing I'd like to be touched on. The only 'connection' thing he got so far is 'He's Leona's childhood friend'. Pantheon certainly has a personality, he's serious, battle-hungry, and dedicated about the art of war. He's out to seriously show you how you lob your spear into the heart of the enemy. He wants to represent his tribe the best he can, how was that different from Garen and Darius? You can say that Garen is all protective and stuffs like that because it's what Demacia represents, while as of Darius, he's calm, collected, yet brutal and has a distaste on weaklings, the stereotype of most Noxians.

Pantheon is like that, he represents his people at Rakkor. Leona is also serene and protective because she represents the 'good' side of Solari, which coincidences with her personality. Diana is ruthless and vengeful because she represents the lost and betrayed tribe of Lunari.

Now the problem with Pantheon, which I'm going to admit, is that... NOTHING differentiates Pantheon with 'Rakkor Warrior #43241'. We could even say that Pantheon is just another Rakkor warrior, only the best there is in combat, but it's like saying the Rakkor tribe is a tribe full of Pantheon copies. It takes a JOKE to make him look a little unique, yes, the baker joke. While I appreciate the joke and find it the funniest joke in League, I think it's not a good way to express a distinct trait.

My suggestion is that not only Pantheon gets more in touch with the Leona-Diana rivalry (I dunno how it'll go, though, anything goes, although I kinda think that Pantheon-Leona is more applicable here because Diana was raised in the Solari sect since birth, so they'd be like totally strangers), if there's another champion migrating to Mount Targon (kind of how like Nasus, Renekton and Skarner changed into Shurima natives after Shurima retcon), maybe linking up with Pantheon could be the way to go or something.

Just my two cents. If Pantheon, with all his flaws story-wise and model-wise impresses me like this, I'm sure the new story modifier for him will be great and he still attains the place as my favorite. I don't think you even need to completely overhaul his skill set, after all, when Sivir got modified, she still retains her original skill set.

You're completely right, I'm not looking to change what you like about pantheon, His identity, however poorly expressed it is right now, is still there. I'm asking for him to get a little help with that, give the players a little insight into his character, what he truly is to the Rakkor and Mount Targon. He's a killer fighter, His shtick is that he's a Spartan, he's there for the glory of combat, not for the furtherance of Demacian Justice like Garen, not to show the world what true strength is, like Darius. He's there because fucking dudes up is what he does best. He's arguably the least politically motivated "leader" (Though I don't feel comfortable calling him such due to how unfamiliar we are with Rakkor traditions/systems of government as a whole.) of any of the big city states right now. He has a shit ton of potential, for himself and the rest of Mount Targon. It's really pretty exciting.

NeoJusteBelmont2 votes

I'd say you are correct in a lot of what you said. However... actually there WAS a political reason why Pantheon is in the battle.

Okay, the keyword is WAS. Because... you know... Retcon.

Back in the days, with the presence of Institute of War and League of Legends, war was abolished. The Rakkor, who lived and breathed only about war, especially Pantheon, finds this peace not only laughable, but a threat to the tribe: They will be forgotten in time when people forget about war completely. Especially when it was noted that the Rakkor tribe generations ago knew the horrors of Rune Wars. So he gets the elder's blessing and entered the League of Legends, to somewhere along the line saying, "Damn it, stop getting all laid back, War is still relevant! Here, I'll show you how!"

In other words, he's as much as trying to show the culture of war that Rakkor worship, ensuring that his tribe doesn't get forgotten and maybe get the world ready in case actual war breaks out. Many fictions having a theme about 'with an overly long peace, when war breaks out, it'll be a major disaster'. If I was to compare with one of the archetypes you mentioned when replying to Ulric, I'd say that he's the... 'some ridiculous paragon of might that's just meant to symbolize the perfect rakkorian lifestyle'

Of course, with the removal of LoL and IoW, this story might not get relevant. But think of it, this can be used as a baseline to build up the new fleshing out for Pantheon. AKA saying how much of a potential he has. But even then, at this moment, I personally think that he's more than just a Spartan knockoff.

'Personally' being the keyword, AKA all of this is just my opinion. I mean, if you think he seriously lacks development, that's cool, I'd love Pantheon to get developed lore-wise. But at this moment, I'm still pretty okay with the current lore he has, even if I agree that he could use some development.

Garentheon2 votes

Man I have been saying this for so long. But you put it so well. Better than I have. Have an upvote

LordHippoman2 votes

That would be interesting. When Leona was coming out they removed the old name of the Rakkor (Stanpar), so you get the idea that they aren't really huge fans of the whole "We just copy pasted Sparta and put it on a mountain" thing anymore.

I always think the best way to go about this kind of discussion is to identify what you think the most important, unchangeable things about the character are. Garen's spinning and "Demacia!", Swain's raven, Graves' shotgun, etc. Things that make that character recognizable, and can be built around.

For me, Pantheon has a few things:

-Spear and Shield. They're his classic armaments, and they factor into his moves. -Unflinching Warrior. Pantheon lives to fight and die. That's his central motivation. -Helmet. Pantheon's helmet is the most recognizable thing about him. It's, ironically, the "face" of his character. -Mandrop. Pantheon is super athletic, enough so that he can pull off Grand Skyfall.

So, what's important about Panth to you, OP? What would be the most important things to keep in a rework of his character?

Oh, and because no Pantheon discussion is complete without...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jp5IZYyma4

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