@Riot, Are You Guys Ever Going To Actually Acknowledge The Highly Upvoted Anti-Retcon Threads?

Impetual·Apr 12, 2015·45 votes·3,365 views

There are many highly upvoted "best" rated threads in the Story and Art boards that have seemingly been ignored by RIot for quite a long time. Rioters may have read these posts, but they have certainly declined to interact with the community in any way whatsoever in many of these topics. Why is this?

Firstly, I thought that the whole point of the forum revamp was to make the more popular threads more visible to Rioters, so that they could respond to them.

Secondly, I thought that it was supposed to be a better way to tell Riot what the player=base actually cares about so that we could have better discussions with RIot about what is important to us.

So...why is Riot ignoring some of the most highly upvoted threads on the Story and Art Boards? And why does it seem like most of the threads that are being ignored are ones that seem to be against the retcon?

Just saying, I really miss the old Riot that actually defended its position on controversial issues, and was willing to discuss stuff with the player-base.

86 Comments

turkeyBACONApr 12, 201523 votes

You know, I never noticed how often you post until you made a post acknowledging it. lol

Anyways, these types of posts are bordering on spam in my opinion. They aren't bringing up new points and aren't trying to talk about current lore or how to fix it. They are just rehashing the idea of bring back old lore that Riot obviously doesn't have any intention of returning too.

The retcon sucks, I agree. But Riot is not going to go back and it'd be more helpful to everyone if we tried to talk about what would make the lore better going forward. We are at their mercy, they make the rules. All we can do is try to mitigate any more suckage by telling riot what we liked about the old lore not just that we liked it.

Baron Von BanginApr 12, 20158 votes

The retcon is here to stay. The reason they're dumbing down Runeterra is so they don't scare off the lowest common denominator of people when Riot finally decides to make a second game. To me it seems pretty obvious that they want to expand the League IP into other types of games, like an RPG or adventure game.

Having the IoW would be too different of a take on a fantasy setting, so the higher ups decided to make Runeterra into something bland and familiar to appease their rockbrained new player base. The IoW suffered from being too different and unique. Any study group will tell you that's a recipe for bad mass marketing.

It's all about the money. Root won't change a thing because upset forum goers don't look at it from a money making marketing perspective. So Riot sold their game's soul for profit. It's as simple as that.

CansemaApr 13, 20155 votes

riot for awhile spammed champions out... this caused story line after story line... and there was some grey areas. and that mentality did limit champions motivation to fight in the league.

how many different kung-fu movies can you watch before you realize alot of people had their family killed for motivation?

to allow more diversity motivation and worlds had to be adjusted.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

You can still create characters that have different motivations without destroying the foundation of the League.

If we want to take the easy route (like Riot did) but preserve the original lore (like Riot didn't) just have the newest not be apart of the League lore-wise. BOOM. Done.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

If they aren't a part of the League, then why would they be a part of the League.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20155 votes

Better you say that a certain character isn't a part of the League but they're playable for the video game's sake than retconning everything. Riot has already established that there is now a separation between gameplay and lore. The whole reason they retconned the League was to open up more story possibilities, so by that logic a playable character that, lore-wise, isn't part of the league doesn't seem like that big of a stretch.

But the real issue is story possibilities isn't the reason they went through with the retcon. Read my original post for that answer.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

It can't be that the lore was was restrictive and backed them into a corner, not to mention riddled with inconsistencies, so it must be the $$$.

Welp that's capitalism for ya.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

Show me where it was "riddled with inconsistencies."

And of course it's the money. That's what the game is ultimately all about. They're selling a product. They didn't think it would be easy to sell a new game with this Fantasy UN ban on total war. So they retconned it.

Make no mistake. It's always about the money.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

Why would Shen team up with Zed? Why would Varus or Jarvan team up with Swain? Why would Vi team up with Jinx? Why would Urgot team up with Garen? Why would Azir team up with Xerath? Why would Lissandra, Elise or Syndra even join in the first place? Why would Lux team up against Garen or Tristana against Teemo?

Money may have played a role, but it isn't the whole story. You picked an easy argument because you can just say anyone who disagrees with it is naive.

Im not buying it. but I can tell you one thing. Several of my friends started playing recently due to word of mouth. That heard the GAMEPLAY was good. They haven't read any of the lore. They would have started playing whether there was lore or not.

At some point one has to choose between cynicism and optimism. Both are correct in their own ways I guess. However, optimism is more fun.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20154 votes

It's an easy argument because I'm right.

You can keep trying to deflect the original argument that the old League setting was unique and it was changed to appease the masses for when they try to venture out with their IP.

Whether your friends play the MOBA version of league or not is irrelevant. I'm talking about future ventures with the League IP. Please actually remember what you're arguing against before you get lost.

As for your inconsistencies there was only one playable canon match and the champions picked for either side were ones that were likely to team up or support a specific side. Any other match we play would be considered non-canon, but the lore provided set the stage and explained what was going on with the game you're playing. Y'know, kinda like how in the new MK games you can do versus mode but if you want to know the story of the game you play campaign mode. You don't need to explain weird matchups because canonically they don't happen, hence the roster availability in the Ionia v Noxus event.

pWasHereApr 13, 20154 votes

I haven't heard of any indication that they want to expand the IP. At this point that is baseless speculation.

They make money by making a product that people want to buy. The argument is incorrect because it oversimplifies and only looks at one side. They make money by putting care into their product.

As for. The story, if only one match was Canon, that kinda lessens the impact a bit. If I was never an important summoner then I guess I don't really mind never having been a summoner now. That was never the feel I got from the old lore. One more thing that makes no sense about the old lore.

My argument never really was that the old lore wasn't unique, it was just one branch. My real argument is that a. Your original argument is overly cynical and simplistic, and therefore wrong, and b. That the old lore was bad and needed to be replaced.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20155 votes

The speculation is far from baseless. Riot isn't planning on only ever making one game and then rolling over to die once League does. Once they need to expand their department they'll make a new game, most likely with an already popular IP. Nothing baseless about that speculation.

Of course they put care into their product. Riot doesn't think their retcon is a bad idea at all. They think what they're doing is the proper way to handle writing.

There were other League matches but yes, that was the only playable, recorded, written about match in the official lore. You can't literally expect that Riot considered every match ever played to be a canon match within their universe. Just because the games you play aren't recorded and official canon doesn't take away any less from your role as a summoner. If you didn't like it you were bound not to like it at all. What, next you're gunna give up on WoW because Blizzard didn't recognize your level 80 Warrior, TankSpanker?

Your argument wasn't that my argument was overly cynical and simplistic. Your contentions were as follows: "Not really that different or unique. So they had a fantasy United Nations. Big woop." and "In a fictional universe this isn't anything new, and the concept has been around since Ww1. This version wasn't even well done. Utterly ridden with plot holes." Neither of which were valid arguments. Just because the lore was written in a way that you personally didn't like doesn't make your contentions suddenly true, especially when disproven.

You've now changed your argument now that both of those have been disproven. You've just now started arguing I'm being cynical and that the old lore was bad.

Yes. I'm being cynical. I have everything to be cynical about. The entire foundation of the story of my favorite game has been ripped up from under my feet. Characters are deleted and replaced on a whim. I have every right to be cynical and upset. If this happened with any other story that I followed you can bet I'd be pretty peeved.

Second. I'm not here to change your mind if you thought the lore was bad. I've refuted many of your claims as to why it was bad and time again you've changed your argument or stance in the face of those arguments. Now you claim the story is bad and needs to be replaced. That's not how you make a living narrative work. As soon as you hit a snag you don't just delete years of built up content. Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it bad. You thought it was bad. Many didn't. That's not a valid argument, that's a value statement, therefore can't be used as evidence to prove your point.

pWasHereApr 14, 20152 votes

Frankly there has been very little in this argument that doesn't boil down to opinion. I could provide more examples about how the old lore is just copies of things done better elsewhere. Half the champs in the game are simply riffs on overdone cliches. But in light of the current lore situation, that ceases to matter.

Whether or not you want to be cynical is not my problem. Just don't expect Riot to listen to you. It is the easiest thing in the world to complain, but it accomplishes nothing. From you comments you seem uninterested in doing what would actually be useful and offer advice in solutions. I guess you do have several reasons to be cynical, but if that is all you are going to be then your comments might as well not exist in the eyes of Riot.

Many people liked the lore, many didnt, and many, many more don't care either way. The game is continuing to grow. Considering that esports has barely hit the mainstream, LoL is nowhere near its peak. Until it does, your speculation will be baseless and your cynicism will fall on deaf ears.

You think that you have won this argument, but i dont see any prize.

Baron Von BanginApr 14, 20153 votes

I never once said that League doesn't borrow cliches and tropes from other media. Garen is clearly inspired by paladins from WoW, Dungeons and Dragons and other such fantasy tropes. Piltover i sone big fantasy steampunk setting (Riot obviously did not invent the steampunk style). Many things are borrowed and inspired from other sources... like literally anything that exists today. Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, DnD, Pathfinder and Warcraft are all EASY examples to point to when you want t see a bunch of things all ripping each other off.

THE DIFFERENCE, however, is not that you argued that League borrowed and reused ideas for characters, that fact is indisputable and Riot admits that's the case. Your contention was as follows (again): "Not really that different or unique. So they had a fantasy United Nations. Big woop." and "In a fictional universe this isn't anything new, and the concept has been around since Ww1. This version wasn't even well done. Utterly ridden with plot holes."

I asked for examples so you could attempt to prove your outrageous claim. The two I knew about (GoT and the Hunger Games) didn't even come close to addressing a fantasy UN, the very thing you called unoriginal. You've consistently tried to deflect the real argument that I was disputing with you to the point of having to resort to trying to twist my words into saying that EVERYTHING within the League-verse is an entirely unique and new creation as evidenced by you saying: "Half the champs in the game are simply riffs on overdone cliches."

No duh. Everyone knows they're different twists on cliches and tropes. I never disputed that fact. You just decided to pull that argument out of thin air.

You say Riot wont listen to me because I'm cynical. Guess who has two thumbs and doesn't give a crap? Riot has made it ABUNDANTLY clear they don't want community ideas and are unwilling to budge on the retcon at large or any of the other characters they've outright deleted from League. So I honestly couldn't care less if Riot doesn't listen to me, they already aren't going to. Besides, there are MUCH better lore enthusiasts that can string a coherent idea along than I (Cupcakes anyone?) that will continue to try to voice their concerns to Riot. I personally see no reason to.

So yes. Your unwillingness to even try to defend your argument that the old League-verse lore wasn't unique (when concerning the IoW since you specifically mention that a fantasy UN wasn't unique) lets me see that I'm already holding my trophy.

Baron Von BanginApr 15, 20154 votes

"As for a fantasy U N. There are plenty of examples. " And yet you still haven't listed any. Game of Thrones and the Hunger Games are not adequate examples.

"You argued that the old lore was unique so I gave several aspects including champs where I do not think that is true." I argued the setting was unique and by retconning it they've made their setting more generic, which you directly responded with addressing the UN issue.

"the thing about the fantasy UN was my original comment, but it wasn't ever really my argument." Then please don't make it your argument and then defend it for several posts following that if it isn't really the argument you wanted to make.

"There are some points I made which you conveniently ignored anyways." Point them out and I'd be happy to address them, whether I agree with them or not.

"Either way, since you have said that you have no intention of helping Riot, I see nothing being won or lost. " I see no reason to even try. They've made it clear they don't want and in fact find our help "stomach churning" if I remember that correctly. Fans voiced their concern when Riot changed Xerath's character and Riot ignored it. Fans spoke up when Riot deleted any semblance of poetic justice from Cass's lore and Riot ignored it. Fans begged Riot to not delete Trundle from the game and what did Riot do? Ignore it.

I will commend them on the changes to Jayce's and Shyvana's lore, but that was a different time. Their recent attitude is they can do no wrong and we should just swallow what they feed us. They certainly reverse that right, after all they are the creators. But I see no reason to voice any concerns when they've made it clear that they have no intention to taking any of it to heart.

From what I can gather after your last post is that the main difference between you and me is you find retcon an acceptable thing to do in a narrative. I'm not going to go all purist and say that all retcon is bad. Mister Freeze from Batman The Animated series is a much stronger character for it, but he's still mostly the same character (but I think that's mostly a symptom of him not having much of anything to begin with). But Riot seems to change everything just for the sake of change. Karthus used to be a mysterious (when they didn't plague League) character with unknown motives, but the JoJ gave reader a deeper glimpse into a more nuanced character. Now he's a generic evil liche obsessed with death. And now he's another character Riot fundamentally changed and ignored community feedback about. Imagine that.

I really like the most recent Star Trek movies. They do an excellent job of respecting the work of the series founders and the loyalty of legions invested fans, while simultaneously "retconning" old episodes and movies from the franchise. I'd take a wonky workaround over the untelling of a story any day.

And honestly, I apologize for the aggressive and negative attitude I've brought with me, especially concerning the retcon. I've been playing this game for five years and the fantastic evolving lore is what is what drew me in other other MOBAS at the time. Being bipolar, I can get pretty obsessive with things and League has kept my interest longer than anything ever has. I literally devoured all the story this game had to offer me and my friends laugh when I can recite the title of every champ. Needless to say I got pretty invested int he world Riot had created. So once they started saying everything I had invested myself in for the past 4 years was gone poof it hit me hard and I still harbor a pretty hard grudge for it.

So I commend you for coming back and keeping up this rather heated debate with me for the past two days or so about a game and company we both love. Even though I'm sure no one but us is reading this mess of a thread by now.

Retconning years of established work by the people that didn't even create it no less is still a huge dick move though.

Edit: and let it be known I'm not the one downvoting you.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

So basically that should have fixed the lore by making it more inconsistent and adding plot holes.

That isn't a fix, it's a break.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

I like how you cling onto the example I dont' even think is a good solution and not the meat of the actual argument.

The claim was made that "to allow more diversity motivation and worlds had to be adjusted."

It didn't. I proved it. Nothing i used as an example breaks the lore anymore than Riot already has. Which, I remind you, isn't even a good fix.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

Sadly it was the only real solution you offered. It is easy to argue about ideals when you aren't the one having to decide the solution.

Frankly I would rather have them break it in one swoop rather than go at it with duct tape until it's unrecognizable.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

It isn't my job to offer solutions. I don't work for Riot.

Problem was, it wasn't broken. It was changed to meet the expectations of a simpler audience. Nothing more. Nothing less.

ImpetualApr 21, 20152 votes

To be fair, I used to be much more excited for champion releases when they came out every two weeks.

Although that may not be feasible at this point, I think that the idea that the story of Runeterra was being continued every two weeks was one of the strong points of LoL's lore. Lore used to be released in a short enough time frame that I still cared.

Even if Riot has to lower the rate of champion releases, they should try to release new lore content every week or two, or people are just going to lose interest.

pWasHereApr 13, 20154 votes

Not really that different or unique. So they had a fantasy United Nations. Big woop.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20157 votes

Oh yea. I forgot about all those other fantasy setting that have had this concept. Like seriously. this is fantasy universe number five-million that has had major wars abolished and fought in "televised" arenas to solve anything from a trade dispute to major territorial conflicts.

God. So many of those. YAWN.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

In a fictional universe this isn't anything new, and the concept has been around since Ww1. This version wasn't even well done. Utterly ridden with plot holes.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20156 votes

Can you provide some popular examples please? I'm genuinely curious.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

Hunger games, Pendragon, Game of Thrones

Angry MonsterApr 13, 20158 votes

I have not read or watched 2 of those.

But the hunger games is a horrible example. That is a totalitarian state that is basically forcing the slave class into death games.

Old league lore was a system where other nations willingly joined to fight instead of having wars.

They are not even close to the same.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20157 votes

Game of Thrones? Where is the council there? It's a bunch of different kingdoms at war. There is no universal political body that various city states come under in order to keep peace.

Hunger Games has nothing of the sort. You just named something with a single totalitarian government.

Never heard of Pendragon, but from what I've looked it there seems to be multiple dimensions that need saving by a middle school boy? I didn't see anything in there about a corrupt but needed fantasy UN.

You say that these kinds of stories have been around since WWI but you haven't cited anything that comes close to what the previous League lore had. Seems Unique if those three are the best you can do.

pWasHereApr 13, 20152 votes

All three used combat as a way of solving or avoiding conflict. Splicing in the UN doesn't make it a unique idea.

As for a corrupt but needed UN. We have Star Wars and Harry Potter to start.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20157 votes

Sure does.

And now anything that uses combat to resolve problems is the same? Might as well throw Star Wars, Gundam and Dragonball Z and literally anything while physical conflict into the same pile while we're at it, eh?

EDIT: I see you added Star Wars and Harry Potter to your post. Yes, they have corrupt government bodies. But that's all it has in common. you keep picking and choosing small examples for your arguments that don't fit the whole of your claim. Star Wars as no arena style conflict resolution in place of War, neither does Harry Potter. They are not valid examples to disprove that the Old League lore was unique. Sorry.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

Combining two overdone and rehashed ideas doesn't make it less overdone and rehashed. It makes it more overdone and rehashed.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20156 votes

Right. Anything with physical conflict is the same to you. Got it.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

You misread my examples

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

I read them. They're just bad. You try to reach with any little thing you can. If there's any small example of combat to resolve conflict that immediately absolves League of a unique setting. If there's a corrupt government body that suddenly also disproves it... somehow.

No examples you've provided have the same setting that the old League lore did. You're just wrong.

Riot retconned the League for a reason. It wasn't for "better storytelling", it was so they could sell a familiar product. The League setting was too unique and unfamiliar of a fantasy setting when compared to many of the popular ones today. so they changed it to match the common demographic's expectations of what a fantasy setting should be. Honestly it'll probably work out for them if they want to develop the IP. i personally think they should have just stuck to their guns and make the setting they created work rather than scrap it all.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20156 votes

Right. Because WANDERING THE WORLD IN SEARCH OF ANSWERS is soooooo much better than AND HE JOINED THE LEAGUE TO SEARCH FOR ANSWERS.

And, once again, you cling onto the wrong part of the argument. Your examples don't disprove the League's previous lore was unique.

I guess when you're fighting a losing battle you'll scrape for whatever scraps you can find.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

Edit: Double post because of over replying I guess?

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

All three of my examples had a proxy nature to them, like lol

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20156 votes

Game of Thrones doesn't. That's literally just medieval conflict. Nothing proxy at all.

Hunger Games doesn't. It's a totalitarian government rounding up slaves to fight in pointless death matches.

I'm sorry, but your examples are not adequate.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

Ellaria Sand would disagree with you.

And the hunger games is done to avoid uprisings. It has a proxy nature to it.

They both work for what I said before.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20155 votes

So you think a duel is the same as what League was before.

The participants in the Hunger Games are taken against their will or their entire sector is slaughtered. It isn't done in the interest in of the participants or those that they represent. There are no nations involved. There is no larger organization involved. The closest thing you can compare to to League, which uses arena style combat in place of world shattering war is a lady who likes to use trial by combat and a government's use of public execution. Are we going to say Pokemon is the same as League? Your examples are reaching further and further.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

I don't need to argue "minute" details. I haven't gone into a single detail at all. I've disproved your comparisons with broad strokes.

And obviously it isn't exactly the same. You know why? Because it was different and unique. I accept your defeat.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20153 votes

Haven't touched on minute details. Minute details would be if I started comparing Summoners to Jedi or Magic to the Force.

I've only arguing with broad strokes and there are extremely large differences that show that your claim of similarity between various media and League to be false.

I accept your gracious defeat.

Dies to WolvesApr 13, 20154 votes

not even close to similar and I hope you're just trolling, or else you should probably go check your head or something.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

This isn't a war, I just think that there is very little unique about the old lore. Every aspect has been seen before in some fashion. Just because I can't come up with good examples doesn't mean they don't exist. Maybe the connection between them was new, but that really isn't much. And there isn't anything wrong with something taking bits and pieces of what has been done before. It is usually quite enjoyable. But it isn't new and different

Whether you consider that a victory or not matters little in the long term.

I will now read the terms of surrender.

ImpetualApr 13, 201511 votes

Yeah, but none of those created such cool character interactions as League did.

Do you remember the JoJ issue where Jax and Gragas wrecked up a bar and ran off? Or Blitzcrank's dating service?

Or on a more serious note, the lore hints that lead up to the release of the Dominion map?

Heck, even Urf's lore was pretty cool until it was retconned...now I guess it's just non-existent...despite the recent game mode released in his name.

We just don't get cool lore stuff like that these days.

pWasHereApr 13, 20151 votes

Some of the interactions were cool but a lot of others didn't make sense. Why would Shen team up with Zed? Why would Varus or Jarvan team up with Swain? Why would Vi team up with Jinx? The moba nature of the game means that you have sworn mortal enemies teaming up for... Reasons. I'm not buying it. The inherent inconsistencies don't make the occasional fun interactions worth it.

ImpetualApr 13, 201510 votes

You're just looking at the negative here!

Ask yourself, why would Garen team up with Darius?

There are positive reasons why those two would battle side by side!

Think of the story possibilities!

The old lore supported that kind of interaction while the new lore does not.

Within the new lore, it feels like champion's interact with one another through "what if" bubbles in time, where other champions aren't part of the equations. This seems like a stupid direction for lore to me. It's dumbed down and stupid!

ImpetualApr 13, 20152 votes

While I agree with most of what you say, I'm still kind of hoping Riot will reverse its decision.

But I'm probably just too naive.

Baron Von BanginApr 13, 20155 votes

They won't. As controversial as the retcon is they won't reserve the decision. They believe the retcon is necessary for the longterm success of the League IP.

Ironically, without the League.

ImpetualApr 14, 20154 votes

Well, if Riot is still anything like it used to be, I wouldn't discount the possibility of the retcon being undone.

They were successful in the early days because they communicated with the player base and gave them what they want. They made the game for us.

Despite their success, they may still retain that same mentality.

If enough players oppose the Retcon, I think Riot might actually listen. *fingers crossed.