Rek'Sai is a terrifying, unstoppable beast!

Rebonack·Dec 3, 2014·14 votes·5,304 views

What exactly would stop the folks from Shurima hiring Zaun or Piltover from coming in with a couple airships, dropping a seismic thumper on the ground, and then blowing Rek into a steaming heap of gibblets as soon as she surfaces?

She's a big (megalodon sized if the video is to be believed) scary animal. Neat.

Large predators aren't a threat to any sufficiently technologically advanced civilization. There's a reason why most of them around the world are extinct or endangered. It's because tools and intelligence trump bestial ferocity pretty handily. Now, if Rek were Godzilla sized like a few of the nasty folks from the Cthulhu Mythos I can understand this not working. If she utterly defied conventional physical laws, yeah, that would make problems. But the route Riot seems to be taking with the Void now is that it's just a spooky purple universe and Rek happens to be a (large) example of the wildlife from there.

So that leaves me wondering, why is this critter a champion, exactly? Why is she a threat to anyone other than some poor losers who don't have so much as a pointy stick to defend themselves?

56 Comments

GreenLoreDec 3, 201419 votes

why would zaun/piltover even bother to do that?seriously,she has a large desert terrain as her territory,they would need to bomb the shit out of a lot of nothing just so that they MAY be able to lure her out and its not even known if it would lure her really out,or if she would simply retreat even deeper into the underground or travel to a different location,I mean its not like they could imprison her with a fence.

You are basically requesting a large scale attack(something that is probably waaaaay too expensive for the citizens of shurima,if it is possible at all,I mean Piltover and Zaun have their limits too) on her territory just to get her down and it could easily fail anyway.

I don't even understand why you say "oh she is nothing special you could kill her if you bomb her and her home",which would apply to most other champs too.

The big problem with rek'sai is,that she comes from beneath the sand,it is hard to defend against something that suddenly bursts out directly beneath you,especially since she seems to be pretty fast. She also seems tohave a tough shell,so weaker weapons won't do much harm to her and I bet her territory is large enough to make it hard for humans to actively find her.

OuttaControl56Dec 4, 20141 votes

Also she's just one of the many creatures that hide beneath the sands, not forgetting the fact that to find her and pummel her accurately is going to be hard because, well, sandstorms.

WaffletimewarpDec 3, 20148 votes

I'm sure all 4 inhabitants Shurima are real worried about her.

Also, as if Azir would call for help.

Ulric GreatswordDec 6, 20144 votes

all 4 inhabitants

Nope, we're down to two. The guys in the video died.

I am THE DariusDec 3, 20148 votes

According to lore Piltover is single handedly being destroyed by Jinx . If they don't have the resources to handle one person I doubt they have enough to send an expedition to a desert which is like 1/4 the entire continent (if accounting Urtisan and Fyrone Flats). Also creatures that are underground that have a large network of tunnels are hard as hell to locate and find. A good example of this is when the US tries to find terrorists located in mountain caves, they use satellite imaging and constant drone monitoring and it still takes them years to find the terrorists and Im pretty sure that Piltover doesn't have satellites or drones to monitor such a vast area so it would take them even longer than that to get a reasonable finding let alone kill Rek'Sai.

RebonackDec 3, 20147 votes

You are basically requesting a large scale attack(something that is probably waaaaay too expensive for the citizens of shurima,if it is possible at all,I mean Piltover and Zaun have their limits too) on her territory just to get her down and it could easily fail anyway.

Large scale?

Nah. An airship or two with some of Singed's melty bombs would probably do the trick.

There's nothing in Rek's kit or lore that suggests that she's super-durable (as opposed to, say, Cho). Nor would she be smart enough to recognize a trap and avoid getting asploded.

And as far as funding it goes, I'm sure Azir and his heaps of ancient treasures could probably work something out.

I don't even understand why you say "oh she is nothing special you could kill her if you bomb her and her home",which would apply to most other champs too.

See, difference here is that none of the other monster-y champions are making a threat of themselves the same way Rek is. They're all intelligent enough to know that painting a target on their head is dumb. Rek'Sai is the only one who is doing a Jaws impression, so she's the only one who needs to get a compressed air tank shoved down her throat and blown up.

Hell. Just put out some poisoned bait for heavens sake. If she's material (and she certainly seems to be, hyper-dimensional beings wouldn't bother with something as pedestrian as burrowing) and if she's eating stuff (implying that she's metabolizing it) then it's just a matter of finding something that would be toxic to her. Sounds like a job for Singed!

Honestly, I think she would have been better off as just a sand shark from Shurima instead of watering down the Void.

GreenLoreDec 3, 20142 votes

You are basically requesting a large scale attack(something that is probably waaaaay too expensive for the citizens of shurima,if it is possible at all,I mean Piltover and Zaun have their limits too) on her territory just to get her down and it could easily fail anyway.

Large scale?

Nah. An airship or two with some of Singed's melty bombs would probably do the trick.

There's nothing in Rek's kit or lore that suggests that she's super-durable (as opposed to, say, Cho). Nor would she be smart enough to recognize a trap and avoid getting asploded.

And as far as funding it goes, I'm sure Azir and his heaps of ancient treasures could probably work something out.

You know she has also other members of her species,you would travel into this part of the desert,send in some baits,who might or might not attract any Xer'sai and then you'd have to hope for it to be Rek'sai and not just some others who'd kill off your precious baits before.

Also I don't see the big gain in dropping poison bombs on the land,you want to walk there,so I dunno how poisoning the land is a good idea...

Other things to consider is that Zaun might not want to help Shurima(why should they?Shurima is most likely not very rich after it got devestated by xerath and Azir himself would most likely like to avoid asking a faction he barely knows anything about to deliver some weird poison bombs into his homeland)

See, difference here is that none of the other monster-y champions are making a threat of themselves the same way Rek is. They're all intelligent enough to know that painting a target on their head is dumb. Rek'Sai is the only one who is doing a Jaws impression, so she's the only one who needs to get a compressed air tank shoved down her throat and blown up.

Hell. Just put out some poisoned bait for heavens sake. If she's material (and she certainly seems to be, hyper-dimensional beings wouldn't bother with something as pedestrian as burrowing) and if she's eating stuff (implying that she's metabolizing it) then it's just a matter of finding something that would be toxic to her. Sounds like a job for Singed!

Honestly, I think she would have been better off as just a sand shark from Shurima instead of watering down the Void.

Actually that was the point of brands lore that he was so overconfident that he ran straight into demacia,setting everything aflame and getting captured for it. Rek'sai is a wild animal,she has her own territory,do humans go into the wild to kill every predator just so that they can't eat us?No we simply avoid going there and be done with(or hunt them for other reasons)

And for the bait there is again the problem that she isn't the only Xer'sai and it is unknown how much poison she can take(and what is even poisonous for her),remember the poisoned bait must still be alive(so it needs to be either resistant enough to the poison to survive or you'd need to implant a poison sack into every bait) otherwise she won't even notice it.

You should also keep in mind,that without the league its not like Rek'sai is a celebrity or anything,while the shurimans know that she is out there,they have probably only limited information about her.

HeavkMar 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Large scale?

Nah. An airship or two with some of Singed's melty bombs would probably do the trick.

There's nothing in Rek's kit or lore that suggests that she's super-durable (as opposed to, say, Cho). Nor would she be smart enough to recognize a trap and avoid getting asploded.

And as far as funding it goes, I'm sure Azir and his heaps of ancient treasures could probably work something out.

See, difference here is that none of the other monster-y champions are making a threat of themselves the same way Rek is. They're all intelligent enough to know that painting a target on their head is dumb. Rek'Sai is the only one who is doing a Jaws impression, so she's the only one who needs to get a compressed air tank shoved down her throat and blown up.

Hell. Just put out some poisoned bait for heavens sake. If she's material (and she certainly seems to be, hyper-dimensional beings wouldn't bother with something as pedestrian as burrowing) and if she's eating stuff (implying that she's metabolizing it) then it's just a matter of finding something that would be toxic to her. Sounds like a job for Singed!

Honestly, I think she would have been better off as just a sand shark from Shurima instead of watering down the Void.

I was reading about rek'sai and some where something said that al of the void creatures were scared of her even vel'koz with the exception of kog'maw cause hes still a larva and only his acid-this is void acid were talkin about- may be able to penetrate her armor

cilice13Dec 3, 20146 votes

If your argument is that she shouldn't be a champion because she could be killed by an internationally organized military carpet bombing, then you should probably consider that a carpet bombing would kill just about every other champion in league too. There's not much inherent to say, Warwick or Teemo, that would make them immune to napalm.

LankPantsDec 4, 20145 votes

She's protected by the IoW!!!, oh wait.

RebonackDec 4, 20145 votes

According to the Riot Q&A on her, Rek'sai is to Vel'koz as a grizzly bear or shark is to a human. She is a highly intelligent predator that is intimidating to even other voidborn.

She isn't another Voidborn, though. At least not a Voidborn as they're described in Cho'Gath's lore. She would be more akin to the legions of awful things the Voidborn toss at material folks and then giggle while they die horrible. Unless, of course, the definition of what a Voidborn is has been changed from 'this is an incomprehensible elder god manifesting in a material form while in the material universe' to 'any spooky purple monster from the spooky purple parallel universe.'

And honestly?

I can not fathom Rek'Sai being any degree of threat to Vel'koz outside of League's apparently totally fictitious battles. Rek's only projectile weapon is a torpedo. Vel can fly, he's frightfully intelligent and analytical, and he has lethal learning lasers.

I dunno. If they hadn't been so cagey with practically every lore related question in the Q&A maybe some of this stuff would have been answered. But right now it's just me really scratching my head in puzzlement.

Ulric GreatswordDec 6, 20142 votes

You just made me realize what has been bugging me about Rek'Sai:

Vel can fly

Her tremorsense even applies to floaty champs like Velkoz , Corki , etc. I understand it from the perspective of game balance, but it still feels weird.

RebonackDec 3, 20144 votes

Are the other Xer'Sai on Runeterra, though? Or are they restricted to the Void?

Y'know, I'm starting to wonder if Rek'Sai and her kin might fall under the category of 'armies of horrors' lead by the Voidborn rather than being a Voidborn herself. She doesn't strike me as 'an ancient creature of malice, violence, and maligned alien intelligence'. She doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would lead armies. She seems like the sort of thing that you point in the general direction of something you want Rek'd and then watch the fireworks.

Hmmm... That might be it. Rek'Sai isn't a Voidborn. She's on the higher end of the Voidborn's living weapons.

RebonackDec 3, 20143 votes

If your argument is that she shouldn't be a champion because she could be killed by an internationally organized military carpet bombing,

That... isn't what I'm saying?

Mostly I'm just wondering aloud what the chances of the Xer'Sai in Runeterra surviving are if someone decided they need to get stomped. Frankly, there's a lot of stuff like that now that the Institute of War isn't a thing. Is Brand just running around burninating the country side? Is Koggy snacking on everything with wild abandon? What the heck is up with Cho?

As far as the champion end of things go, I'm mostly just puzzled why random spooky wildlife is being included in the character roster. If she were one of the Voidborn, one of those unfathomable horrors that commands legions of smaller but no less unfathomable horrors like Cho apparently does I would get that. But she's just a Neutral Hungry critter.

MrSc0ttyDec 4, 20143 votes

Yeah, and Garen is a dude with a sword and talent that would make any prima ballerina turn as Green as emerald Taric.

When the vast majority of your champs are "schmuck with weapon" then a big monster is pretty terrifying.

Why doesn't anyone kill champion Y?

Because then champion Y wouldn't be in the video game that is the entire point of this whole freaking discussion.

And that's it. Done.

Spellbound1875Dec 7, 20141 votes

Yeah, and Garen is a dude with a sword and talent that would make any prima ballerina turn as Green as emerald Taric.

When the vast majority of your champs are "schmuck with weapon" then a big monster is pretty terrifying.

Why doesn't anyone kill champion Y?

Because then champion Y wouldn't be in the video game that is the entire point of this whole freaking discussion.

And that's it. Done.

With the new lore that doesn't apply since the League is fictitious. which means they totally could die. And the game would continue just as it is.

Sneak DogDec 4, 20142 votes

Piltover and Zaun don't care one bit about her having her little piece of a huge desert. They wouldn't bother and have their own problems to deal with (or will, seeing where the current lore seems to be headed).

Bandle City however is having it's land-based trading route terrorized. They ought to send Rumble, Heimerdinger or Ziggs at her to maintain healthy trading relationships. Any one of those three would probably outwit her tremorsense and then just launch a large enough weapon at her.

If it isn't the land-based trading route with Bandle CIty, then I have no clue why Rek'Sai is even terrorizing caravans enough for them to have dedicated look-outs for her specifically.

Neon RobotDec 4, 20142 votes

[deleted]

Spellbound1875Dec 7, 20141 votes

I'm of two minds about this actually. I imagine that the deserts of Shurima are rather expansive and as such we're talking about trying to bomb something, while arguably yes very large, in a huge area. Just happening across Rek'sai at any particular time would actually be a rather rare occurrence. Trying to track her down and perform a bombing run would be that much harder as the normal seismic events that would attract her and cause her to surface wouldn't be occurring. You'd basically have to fly around and wait for her to surface. Then you'd need for her to sit still long enough to get a good target on her and then bomb her and hope she doesn't submerge before the bombs hit. That being said, her territory is apparently well known and so you'd at least have some semblance of where to search for her and since she is simply an animal tricking her wouldn't be overtly challenging. Even the smartest animals will still fall for relatively simple tricks.

I imagine most nation states wouldn't bother attacking her as she is primarily a Shurima problem and there isn't a good reason to stick their neck out to fight something like that without a good cause.

Also, because I saw it mentioned elsewhere, if you actually look at the bonestructure and relative skin thickness of most prehistoric predators they actually wouldn't really present much more threat that most still living creatures and in fact less so. Large animals tend to be easy to track and their bodies are not much more defensive than a regular animals. Point of fact, people do hunt elephants and in the old days used elephant guns to kill them. Super predators would still die relatively easily to a gun designed to kill them. A standard handgun wouldn't be effective but something shooting 7.62 rounds or a similar high caliber bullet would do the trick.

Though Rek'sai's flesh does heal itself when she's underground. I think we can assume magic makes the comparison less cut and dry.

RebonackDec 4, 20142 votes

Well, let's see - considering she's going to be mixing it up with everyone on Summoner's Rift, I'm gonna assume she can take multiple shots from pretty much everything Runeterra and beyond could throw at her, including gunfire, rockets, lasers, etc.

Keep in mind that the fights that take place in Summoner's Rift are totally fictitious even in-universe akin to Smash Brothers. Most champions would have exactly zero chance of taking Corki in a fight due to his gyro-copter. While skilled, most League champions are still quite human and one shot from something like Graves' hand-cannon would kill them (see: a New Dawn).

Anywho, whether the effort is worth it or not mostly comes down to how important the trade routes she's disrupting are. If she can just be ignored then she isn't a problem. If she's disrupting the supply lines for some rare alchemical reagent that folks in Zaun want you can bet they'll eventually do something about it.

RebonackDec 8, 20142 votes

Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

Aaaaand this is what puzzles me about her. Okay, yeah, she's supposed to be the biggest, most powerful member of her race. Maybe if we had some kind of buildup regarding her race that would be relevant. Maybe if she were actually huge on Rift that would be true. But as it stands she honestly isn't that gigantic or horrifying In Game. But she is the only one we've seen. We have nothing to compare her to. All we have to go on is a video that displays some unarmed nomads getting Rek'd.

DiahaneDec 8, 20141 votes

Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

Aaaaand this is what puzzles me about her. Okay, yeah, she's supposed to be the biggest, most powerful member of her race. Maybe if we had some kind of buildup regarding her race that would be relevant. Maybe if she were actually huge on Rift that would be true. But as it stands she honestly isn't that gigantic or horrifying In Game. But she is the only one we've seen. We have nothing to compare her to. All we have to go on is a video that displays some unarmed nomads getting Rek'd.

I'm on the same page as you. It puzzles me how can she be a character in a story. The reason they didn't go for a giant in-game thing is probably that they already did so with new Sion and having other champions be so big would cheapen his role as the big undead hulk juggernaut. Or something like that.

Ebonmaw DragonDec 11, 20142 votes

{quoted} What exactly would stop the folks from Shurima hiring Zaun or Piltover from coming in with a couple airships, dropping a seismic thumper on the ground, and then blowing Rek into a steaming heap of gibblets as soon as she surfaces?

Money... The people of Shurima is poor

disregardableDec 3, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

RebonackDec 3, 201411 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

disregardableDec 3, 20142 votes

...oh. That sucks.

HeresyUntoFedexDec 4, 20143 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

Those same people said Cho'gath(League's resident eldritchKaiju) would be afraid to bump into her, and that she'd eat Skarner(giant scorpion that's slightly bigger then her and made out of crystals and rocks)... yeah.

Spellbound1875Dec 4, 20142 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

Those same people said Cho'gath(League's resident eldritchKaiju) would be afraid to bump into her, and that she'd eat Skarner(giant scorpion that's slightly bigger then her and made out of crystals and rocks)... yeah.

I feel they are more qualified to discuss the champion they worked on then Cho and Skarner, so we can take those comments with a grain of salt. Personally I'm viewing the two comments you referenced as opinions rather than canon. I do feel Rek'sai is less intelligent then the other Void champions. Granted that doesn't make her stupid, but she is driven by instinct rather then logic or reason, which every other Void champ is driven by to an extent (The reasoning may not make sense to use but it's there). I'd say she's smarter than your average bear but far behind humans.

As for why they haven't killed her yet, I don't think she's been around too long, at least on Runeterra. And she certainly isn't alone out there. Shurima's a big place after all...

RebonackDec 4, 20143 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

Those same people said Cho'gath(League's resident eldritchKaiju) would be afraid to bump into her, and that she'd eat Skarner(giant scorpion that's slightly bigger then her and made out of crystals and rocks)... yeah.

Yeah...

I'm not wanting to just dismiss their comments out of hand (as absolutely asinine as the 'our Void monster could totes take those other ones' comments were) since they did make the creature. But do they actually have any input on the Lore side of things or is that totally divorced from the rest of the champion making process now?

The whole situation is one giant confusing muddle.

MatezoideDec 9, 20142 votes

Wait, what? Really?

Damn, that has to be creator's bias/propaganda. Cho is one of the most powerful creatures in the entire game (Check his lore) and Skarner is no pushover either. If he is legitimately afraid of Rek, that would mean she is stupidly powerful.

VanraDec 7, 20143 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

RebonackDec 7, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Riot decided that the game needed a playable Voidling I guess?

Spellbound1875Dec 8, 20145 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Since the League doesn't exist they don't need a reason for her being here. As such she has not reason for being her. She is because Riot thought she was neat.

DiahaneDec 8, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Since the League doesn't exist they don't need a reason for her being here. As such she has not reason for being her. She is because Riot thought she was neat.

This way though people don't really have a reason to get attached to her. Unless people like to get attached to things akin the shark from Jaws... I mean, it may be fun to play a beast once or twice in a while, but can someone really immerse into being a mindless beast? Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

Spellbound1875Dec 9, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Since the League doesn't exist they don't need a reason for her being here. As such she has not reason for being her. She is because Riot thought she was neat.

This way though people don't really have a reason to get attached to her. Unless people like to get attached to things akin the shark from Jaws... I mean, it may be fun to play a beast once or twice in a while, but can someone really immerse into being a mindless beast? Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

I don't see why not. Some people like the change of pace. Some people like the feeling of hunting down someone. Rek'sai should be able to provide both of those. And people get attached to "mindless" beasts all the time. Jurassic Park's raptors are fondly remembered. As is the Xenomorph from Alien. I personally think she's kind of underwhelming as it but the theory is sound.

DiahaneDec 10, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Since the League doesn't exist they don't need a reason for her being here. As such she has not reason for being her. She is because Riot thought she was neat.

This way though people don't really have a reason to get attached to her. Unless people like to get attached to things akin the shark from Jaws... I mean, it may be fun to play a beast once or twice in a while, but can someone really immerse into being a mindless beast? Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

I don't see why not. Some people like the change of pace. Some people like the feeling of hunting down someone. Rek'sai should be able to provide both of those. And people get attached to "mindless" beasts all the time. Jurassic Park's raptors are fondly remembered. As is the Xenomorph from Alien. I personally think she's kind of underwhelming as it but the theory is sound.

I don't think you've chosen the best examples for your case, since both the raptors and alien are not the ones you're supposed to identify or immerse with in those movies. They're cool, they're famous, but they're supposed to be there to create tension and a feeling of fear. You may like them, but can you really say you want to be them? It would be a different thing if there still was the Summoner filter, but without it you're supposed to be a mindless beast and is there really any immersion in that? To hunt things is the Rengar and Kha'Zix thing too, but they provide something to feel immersed with.

Spellbound1875Dec 10, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure she's a sentient creature. Just a really aggressive, hostile one.

Unfortunately not.

In her Q&A her designers said that she is completely bestial and driven by instincts. She's just a weird looking animal.

So..... why's she in League, then?

Since the League doesn't exist they don't need a reason for her being here. As such she has not reason for being her. She is because Riot thought she was neat.

This way though people don't really have a reason to get attached to her. Unless people like to get attached to things akin the shark from Jaws... I mean, it may be fun to play a beast once or twice in a while, but can someone really immerse into being a mindless beast? Can someone really look forward to be a growling and clicking burrower for hours?

I don't see why not. Some people like the change of pace. Some people like the feeling of hunting down someone. Rek'sai should be able to provide both of those. And people get attached to "mindless" beasts all the time. Jurassic Park's raptors are fondly remembered. As is the Xenomorph from Alien. I personally think she's kind of underwhelming as it but the theory is sound.

I don't think you've chosen the best examples for your case, since both the raptors and alien are not the ones you're supposed to identify or immerse with in those movies. They're cool, they're famous, but they're supposed to be there to create tension and a feeling of fear. You may like them, but can you really say you want to be them? It would be a different thing if there still was the Summoner filter, but without it you're supposed to be a mindless beast and is there really any immersion in that? To hunt things is the Rengar and Kha'Zix thing too, but they provide something to feel immersed with.

I think they are perfectly fine examples. Both outlived the protagonists in their respective series, both series are named after the creatures and not the humans, and both creatures have captured the imagination of the audiences. The amount of material inspired by the raptors and the Xenomorphs easily eclipses the amount inspired by the human contribution to those movies. They've grown beyond merely tools to create tension. They've developed more than their human counterparts. And even if they hadn't, so what? You ever watch a horror movie? The human characters are not the draw, they aren't what immerses you. It's the atmosphere and the threat that do the heavy lifting. I've never wanted to be a victim in a horror movie. Which leads to my next point. Immersion does not equal wanting to be something. You can be immersed by playing complete monsters. Not in the sense of being mindless but of being intelligent beings who choose to behave monstrously. Vladimir in League is a horrible serial killer. I doubt most people who play him would say that want to be him. However playing as a monster for a time is interesting. It lets you explore a world you find abhorrent without having to commit a real atrocity. In a game like Dragon Age Origins you can be a complete monster if you wish to. You can do every abhorrent act available to you and still be immersed. I wouldn't claim that this means you actually want to be that person and to commit those acts. I think it's more likely that you're interested in exploring the motivations of such a character.

The summoner aspect has never led me to be immersed in League. It wouldn't make me immersed in any other game. It's the strength of the characters that lead to the immersion.

I love Cho'gath. I love the fact that he's a highly intelligent monster that wishes to devour everything he encounters. I sure as hell don't enjoy playing him because I linked with his mind in lore. I enjoy playing him because he oozes malice and power. Late game his presence creates unease in the enemy team. The rage conveyed at being forced to exist in such a hideous world matches perfectly with his kits ability to erase an enemy.

I love Kha'zix because his kit and character focus only on killing a single target. His lines and visuals back up the idea that he is a creature designed solely to kill. The entirety of his character is itching to kill and kill and kill.

I like Rek'sai because her vocals sell savage beast that wants to crush and destroy everything in it's path. It lacks the drive of Kha, or the malice of Cho. It's wilder, less directed. However I think her kit does not support this idea very well. She lacks the ability to stick with her target and the damage to prove she is instantly threatening. But neither of those facts changes the point that you can be immersed in an alien perspective. Humanity is not necessary for immersion. Understanding is not necessary for immersion. Desire to be the object of your interest is not necessary for immersion.

DiahaneDec 11, 20142 votes

{quoted} I think they are perfectly fine examples. Both outlived the protagonists in their respective series, both series are named after the creatures and not the humans, and both creatures have captured the imagination of the audiences.

Well, Jurassic Park is named after a thing built by humans, not after the dinosaurs =P Of course this is but a trivial remark done just for the sake of it.

The amount of material inspired by the raptors and the Xenomorphs easily eclipses the amount inspired by the human contribution to those movies. They've grown beyond merely tools to create tension. They've developed more than their human counterparts. And even if they hadn't, so what? You ever watch a horror movie? The human characters are not the draw, they aren't what immerses you. It's the atmosphere and the threat that do the heavy lifting. I've never wanted to be a victim in a horror movie.

Yes! It's the atmosphere which does the work and that one is made of threat and fear and anguish. Those who craft horror movies usually project them to instil negative sensations in the audience and those are achieved by conveying the stress which the characters of the movie are under. You don't want to be a victim, but usually you are guided into having the feelings of a possible victim. Horror movies are not meant to empower you giving the illusion that you are in control of the victims' lives, which would mean that they'd try to immerse you in the "monster", they are meant to disturb you and foster sensations of terror, anxiety and despair.

Which leads to my next point. Immersion does not equal wanting to be something. You can be immersed by playing complete monsters. Not in the sense of being mindless but of being intelligent beings who choose to behave monstrously. Vladimir in League is a horrible serial killer. I doubt most people who play him would say that want to be him. However playing as a monster for a time is interesting. It lets you explore a world you find abhorrent without having to commit a real atrocity. In a game like Dragon Age Origins you can be a complete monster if you wish to. You can do every abhorrent act available to you and still be immersed. I wouldn't claim that this means you actually want to be that person and to commit those acts. I think it's more likely that you're interested in exploring the motivations of such a character.

And here is the point, if you play monstrous but not mindless characters you immerse in that kind of personality, how twisted it may be, and can explore their motivations. You can be how much of a dick you wish to in RPGs, even if you are a perfectly well-behaved and good-willing person IRL (although one who is really so finds it extremely difficult, for instance when I try to do so I always find myself taking the "good" choices because the other ones always seem just too irrational and counter-productive), of course, but still when you role-play an evil character you're immersing into that mindset and, even if only within the frame of fiction, you want to be said kind of character. You want to live a dark fantasy usually forbidden by social and moral taboos. You kind of want to play with fire and it's totally fine if you're the average sane person. But read the excerpt quoted above again, you argue for monsters who are not mindless and that's the point, my perplexity lies in what motivations could one have to interpret a mindless one such as Rek'Sai. Imagine taking part to a D&D campaign in the guise of a mindless zombie: what can you achieve? Actually, at least in 3.5, you couldn't ever play a character with an INT score lower than a certain threshold, and the whole point of this rule is that below said limit your character doesn't have real agency because he/she/it cannot think beyond instinct and there's nothing to role-play about it, there's no actual choices for such a character, only a recipe for determining how to react to stimuli. It becomes kind of a deterministic behaviour. Just think of zombie npcs in certain games, they have a set of rules determining when and where to they move and who will they attack. That's how Rek'Sai appears to be: does she have choices to make? Given what they said, it seems she runs only on a bestial mindset, without any possible further goals.

The summoner aspect has never led me to be immersed in League. It wouldn't make me immersed in any other game. It's the strength of the characters that lead to the immersion.

I can't argue against the fact it didn't immerse you and wouldn't ever, of course, but I can tell you it did immerse me and filled the immersion gap left by the fact that my favourite characters are female and I can't, for biological reasons, see myself as being them. The summoner filter instead allowed me to retain my male identity and still feel immersed because I knew that it was all about me fighting with the champion via a complex magic bond which fused our identities. The summoner thing is a matter of tastes of course, so I don't expect anyone to agree with it on solely this ground.

I love Cho'gath. I love the fact that he's a highly intelligent monster that wishes to devour everything he encounters. I sure as hell don't enjoy playing him because I linked with his mind in lore. I enjoy playing him because he oozes malice and power. Late game his presence creates unease in the enemy team. The rage conveyed at being forced to exist in such a hideous world matches perfectly with his kits ability to erase an enemy.

I love Kha'zix because his kit and character focus only on killing a single target. His lines and visuals back up the idea that he is a creature designed solely to kill. The entirety of his character is itching to kill and kill and kill.

I like Rek'sai because her vocals sell savage beast that wants to crush and destroy everything in it's path. It lacks the drive of Kha, or the malice of Cho. It's wilder, less directed. However I think her kit does not support this idea very well. She lacks the ability to stick with her target and the damage to prove she is instantly threatening. But neither of those facts changes the point that you can be immersed in an alien perspective. Humanity is not necessary for immersion. Understanding is not necessary for immersion. Desire to be the object of your interest is not necessary for immersion.

Then what is necessary for immersion? I don't think being strictly human is necessary, alien mindsets are okay, but being not mindless is necessary, imho. If you play a mindless beast but do so with a human superstructure (you taking complex choices based on human reasoning) you're not immersing into the mindless beast part, you're pretending to do so. There's no way to role-play Rek'Sai staying true to her characteristic of being mindless because that would deprive you of the ability to choose beyond instinctual programming. At most one may achieve but a shallow immersion, but won't ever get "in character". That doesn't mean it's not fun, of course. By the way, by "wanting to be the object of immersion" I don't mean wanting to be it in real life, I mean wanting to be it within the narrative frame you live the given fantasy. Being a mindless beast in a narrative framework , summarizing, does in my view forbid you from taking choices and actions at a higher level, thus sterilizing the agency of your character, which becomes a tool of the circumstances, i.e. more of a plot device than a character. You can still play such a "character" in a MOBA as LoL, but you won't achieve real immersion, imho.

Spellbound1875Dec 11, 20141 votes

{quoted} Well, Jurassic Park is named after a thing built by humans, not after the dinosaurs =P Of course this is but a trivial remark done just for the sake of it.

Yes! It's the atmosphere which does the work and that one is made of threat and fear and anguish. Those who craft horror movies usually project them to instill negative sensations in the audience and those are achieved by conveying the stress which the characters of the movie are under. You don't want to be a victim, but usually you are guided into having the feelings of a possible victim. Horror movies are not meant to empower you giving the illusion that you are in control of the victims' lives, which would mean that they'd try to immerse you in the "monster", they are meant to disturb you and foster sensations of terror, anxiety and despair.

And here is the point, if you play monstrous but not mindless characters you immerse in that kind of personality, how twisted it may be, and can explore their motivations. You can be how much of a dick you wish to in RPGs, even if you are a perfectly well-behaved and good-willing person IRL (although one who is really so finds it extremely difficult, for instance when I try to do so I always find myself taking the "good" choices because the other ones always seem just too irrational and counter-productive), of course, but still when you role-play an evil character you're immersing into that mindset and, even if only within the frame of fiction, you want to be said kind of character. You want to live a dark fantasy usually forbidden by social and moral taboos. You kind of want to play with fire and it's totally fine if you're the average sane person. But read the excerpt quoted above again, you argue for monsters who are not mindless and that's the point, my perplexity lies in what motivations could one have to interpret a mindless one such as Rek'Sai. Imagine taking part to a D&D campaign in the guise of a mindless zombie: what can you achieve? Actually, at least in 3.5, you couldn't ever play a character with an INT score lower than a certain threshold, and the whole point of this rule is that below said limit your character doesn't have real agency because he/she/it cannot think beyond instinct and there's nothing to role-play about it, there's no actual choices for such a character, only a recipe for determining how to react to stimuli. It becomes kind of a deterministic behavior. Just think of zombie npcs in certain games, they have a set of rules determining when and where to they move and who will they attack. That's how Rek'Sai appears to be: does she have choices to make? Given what they said, it seems she runs only on a bestial mindset, without any possible further goals.

I can't argue against the fact it didn't immerse you and wouldn't ever, of course, but I can tell you it did immerse me and filled the immersion gap left by the fact that my favorite characters are female and I can't, for biological reasons, see myself as being them. The summoner filter instead allowed me to retain my male identity and still feel immersed because I knew that it was all about me fighting with the champion via a complex magic bond which fused our identities. The summoner thing is a matter of tastes of course, so I don't expect anyone to agree with it on solely this ground.

Then what is necessary for immersion? I don't think being strictly human is necessary, alien mindsets are okay, but being not mindless is necessary, imho. If you play a mindless beast but do so with a human superstructure (you taking complex choices based on human reasoning) you're not immersing into the mindless beast part, you're pretending to do so. There's no way to role-play Rek'Sai staying true to her characteristic of being mindless because that would deprive you of the ability to choose beyond instinctual programming. At most one may achieve but a shallow immersion, but won't ever get "in character". That doesn't mean it's not fun, of course. By the way, by "wanting to be the object of immersion" I don't mean wanting to be it in real life, I mean wanting to be it within the narrative frame you live the given fantasy. Being a mindless beast in a narrative framework , summarizing, does in my view forbid you from taking choices and actions at a higher level, thus sterilizing the agency of your character, which becomes a tool of the circumstances, i.e. more of a plot device than a character. You can still play such a "character" in a MOBA as LoL, but you won't achieve real immersion, imho.

I feel that mindless is being used in to different ways here. To use D&D logic, zombies are intelligence --. They don't have thoughts at all. They are automatons who follow a program. Rek'sai would be, at minimum intelligence 3, though she could be up to 6. Rek'sai lacks the capacity for abstract thought but she still thinks. Her mindlessness is in reference to the "higher" order thinking. She isn't an insane berserker who charges into the fray with reckless abandon. She, in lore has demonstrated a capacity for some thought, even if it's on the level of a wolf. Wolves make choices. Limited to us perhaps but choices are still there. I for me using monster with minds... the two examples that started this are both intelligent creatures driven at least partially by instinct, though that doesn't limit them in any meaningful way from being the threat they are or making choices on how to be such a threat. Instinct is really just another type of motivation, something each character comes stuck with. Cho'gath will never want to protect Runeterra, Tryndamere will never want to settle down, Azir will never want Shurima to fall. These things are unchanging and you do not have the ability to make choices on them. Instinct fits into the same boat. Kha'zix for instance, kills and devours to evolve because of instinct. Yet he can make choices. The fact that Kha uses words doesn't change the fundamental fact that he is driven completely by instinct. We should not assume because Rek'sai doesn't have words she is somehow less able to make choices. Note I still do believe she lacks the capacity for abstract thought, but we aren't arguing about that right now. :P

All immersion is pretending at the end of the day. I don't feel that's a valid criticism to say that you are merely pretending to be immersed. As for the in character bit, not all characters need to be complex to be immersive. In fact the opposite is sometimes the case. I'd argue league manages to do its immersion thing by having its characters be archetypes. Simple but easily readable.

I'd hoped you hadn't meant wanting to be a character, but your language was unclear so I thought I'd bring it up. :P Regardless of how this conversation goes, thank you for a pleasant discussion. ^_^

DiahaneDec 12, 20141 votes

{quoted} I feel that mindless is being used in to different ways here. To use D&D logic, zombies are intelligence --. They don't have thoughts at all. They are automatons who follow a program. Rek'sai would be, at minimum intelligence 3, though she could be up to 6. Rek'sai lacks the capacity for abstract thought but she still thinks. Her mindlessness is in reference to the "higher" order thinking. She isn't an insane berserker who charges into the fray with reckless abandon. She, in lore has demonstrated a capacity for some thought, even if it's on the level of a wolf. Wolves make choices. Limited to us perhaps but choices are still there. I for me using monster with minds... the two examples that started this are both intelligent creatures driven at least partially by instinct, though that doesn't limit them in any meaningful way from being the threat they are or making choices on how to be such a threat. Instinct is really just another type of motivation, something each character comes stuck with. Cho'gath will never want to protect Runeterra, Tryndamere will never want to settle down, Azir will never want Shurima to fall. These things are unchanging and you do not have the ability to make choices on them. Instinct fits into the same boat. Kha'zix for instance, kills and devours to evolve because of instinct. Yet he can make choices. The fact that Kha uses words doesn't change the fundamental fact that he is driven completely by instinct. We should not assume because Rek'sai doesn't have words she is somehow less able to make choices. Note I still do believe she lacks the capacity for abstract thought, but we aren't arguing about that right now. :P

Yes, I can see your point, probably my vision of things is taken to an extreme due to the fact that I'm used to see animal behaviour as natural programming and animals as, indeed, automatons. Complex ones with a good array of choices and behaviours, of course, but still bound to a basic code. Humans are not really that different, save for the fact that our brain is perhaps more complex and gives rise to some emergent phenomena and deterministic chaos which results in the apparent freedom of our wills maybe.

All immersion is pretending at the end of the day. I don't feel that's a valid criticism to say that you are merely pretending to be immersed. As for the in character bit, not all characters need to be complex to be immersive. In fact the opposite is sometimes the case. I'd argue league manages to do its immersion thing by having its characters be archetypes. Simple but easily readable.

I have a pretty convoluted argument on why immersion with Rek'Sai would be just pretended (or more pretended than usual immersion, to be precise), but it's a bit of a borderline one, so bear with me as I try to explain it, even if I myself am unsure on its real implications. What I had in mind saying one would just be pretending to be immersed while playing Rek'Sai is the fact that those who will play her are actually not mindless and so superimpose on the mindless beast archetype higher layers and levels of thoughts resulting in decisions more clever than those the character is supposed to be able to make. So, on a purely formal level, you would be out of character. Of course that's a thing bound to happen in a MOBA, but with other characters that's less severe and arguable, because the player is usually compelled into immersing in the character's mindset by the fact that his/her/its kit is supposed to have been crafted for the purpose of conveying that kind of character. While not every decision one makes is in character, taking it doesn't break manifestly immersion. If you play Garen, the kit pushes you into the role of a dauntless vanguard, but taking other tactical decisions is fine as well, since Garen as a human has the possibility of opting for those instead. Taking strategical decisions with Rek'Sai instead is something which is systematically out of character. Whenever one does something too smart with her (say, trading a blue buff for an enemy tower), immersion is not achieved formally. Why should she care for objectives? I know it's a pretty pedantic point of view and it amounts to simply saying that I don't think it's possible for a human to act according to a pure mindless beast's thought pattern. It's pretty irrelevant too from the game's point of view, I openly state so, it's more a reflection on role-playing characters with low INT scores. We could say I ended up arguing why rolling a simple wolf in D&D would make for the worst character ever, role-playing-wise xD

I'd hoped you hadn't meant wanting to be a character, but your language was unclear so I thought I'd bring it up. :P Regardless of how this conversation goes, thank you for a pleasant discussion. ^_^

Thanks to you too, I enjoyed the discussion too. I needed someone sharing the point of view of those who like Rek'Sai because of her pure beast archetype. If you unlock and play her it'd be awesome if after a while you shared your thoughts about whether and how much she delivers in terms of immersion!

MatezoideDec 9, 20141 votes

There is no League anymore. Personally, i like to imagine the gameplay as a child playing with his toys, like Super Smash Bros.

junglerboy16Dec 4, 20141 votes

According to the Riot Q&A on her, Rek'sai is to Vel'koz as a grizzly bear or shark is to a human. She is a highly intelligent predator that is intimidating to even other voidborn. As far as we know (what with that darned retcon screwing over the lore) the void is not just an emptiness with a few random beings in it, it is more akin to a parallel universe; It has multiple species and type of creatures, but just because they all originate from the same universe doesn't mean they share any innate allegiance to each other, just like I don't automatically befriend every wild grizzly bear I will ever see.

As to why they don't just blow her up, there could be limitless reasons: ecological preservation, collateral damage, unknown success, bad side effects (as in Rek'sai absorbs the explosion energy and mutates into a supernaturally powerful entity that wreaks havoc on all of Valoran, or other similarly unexpected results).

It is easy to say that Large predators are not a threat to technologically advanced civilizations, except you fail to consider the fact that super predators like Megalodon, Tyrannosaurus Rex, Mososaurs, and other, similarly large and powerful beasties all went extinct long before mankind gained any form of technological advancement that could be used against them. You also assume that technology is even remotely relevant to runeterran political and/or ecological power. Right now, Demacia and Noxus, the two largest and most powerful factions currently active have medieval technology and culture, and Zaun and piltover are stand out exceptions in a land of magic and beasts.

As to why she is a Champion, that is probably just because her identity as a magical land shark feels really cool and satisfying, even without her being truly sentient. Sometimes, your just want to play a monster that is a monster, not a monster that could also talk to you about stuff, just a raw, natural monster that would make you lose your lunch if you saw it in real life.

GorgannanDec 4, 20141 votes

AP scaling implies it's magic. :P

oooooh, mf, the girl with some guns.

Athenes LuluDec 4, 20141 votes

The thing is, she can even burrow to civilizations and destroy them FROM BELOW, if she wishes to do so.

That's how dangerous she could be.

Gray FanchonDec 4, 20141 votes

Well, let's see - considering she's going to be mixing it up with everyone on Summoner's Rift, I'm gonna assume she can take multiple shots from pretty much everything Runeterra and beyond could throw at her, including gunfire, rockets, lasers, etc.

So assuming that, killing her is going to be a pain. Catching her is going to be hard - you have to find a creature used to comfortably and quickly moving through a vast desert.

And if you do manage to catch her, and have sufficient force to bring her down, she can simply Void Rush somewhere else. Maybe if there was a massive effort to kill her, she could be slain eventually. But I think if you're gonna throw an army or a huge amount of force at any individual champion, you'll probably manage to kill them. :P Albeit at a pretty massive cost, potentially.

Tsukuy0m1Dec 4, 20141 votes

why is her name similar to void creatures if she is not from the void?

RebonackDec 4, 20142 votes

why is her name similar to void creatures if she is not from the void?

Well... because she IS from the Void? Or at least that's what the designers have said. I'm just thinking at this point that she's a big, nasty voidling rather than a Voidborn like Cho'Gath. That would explain why she has a species and why she isn't intelligent.

MatezoideDec 9, 20141 votes

Because Shurima is poor as hell, so they wouldnt be able to afford anyone's services.

And nobody gives a damn about Shurima in the lore (Seriously, if Runeterra had an asshole, that asshole would be called Shurima), so nobody ever bothers to go kill Rek.

DWT12345Dec 10, 20141 votes

shurima is the least populated place in valoran, so neither city would really bother. Besides, if they could do that, why havent they taken down the other void creatures? If anything this sounds like a job for Kassadin .

PeriditionMar 20, 20151 votes

Shurima seems like a pretty ravaged and impoverished place. I doubt anyone outside of Azir has the gold to attract Zaun's interest.

But better yet is probably the fact that most Shurimians don't care about the area that Rek'Sai inhabits. Its nothing more than endless desert. They only reason people go there at all is to for trade routes.