With the new lore: Jayce is Mr. Fantastic & Viktor is Dr. Doom

[{quoted}](name=midnight oil24,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=dBHJ2A7q,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T13:43:14.772+0000)

But what about the girl (can't remember her name, sorry) who goes to stay with him when things get tense with the fantastic four and calls him Uncle Viktor? That's something good. Such a young person goes to him for support, and he does his best and is civil around her.

That doesn't automatically make him Mother Theresa. Unless they retcon his entire history, he will always remain a villain.

And Stalin loved his mother. He still killed millions, was a horrible tyrant, crushed whatever individual freedoms the USSR had, and was making plans to initiate a potentially nuclear war with the US before he died, and kill off the Jews in his territory (because if it worked for that one German guy, why shouldn't it work for him?). There is a point where we can call someone a villain while still understanding that they are human. Those two things are not mutually exclusive after all. It's closer to say that our very humanity is what brings about villainy in the first place.

Now, I understand that Stan Lee said he wasn't a villain. But, a few points, Doom has developed far beyond what Lee originally wrote at this point. And, while Stan is certainly a creative genius, the vast majority of his villains are pretty one-note stock characters. The evil scientist who just wants to rule the world, the bank robber who doesn't really have a motivation other than to create a catalyst for the hero to punch, and the Red Scare villain out to destroy America because they hate America are all really common for him. So, that's part of what makes Doom so interesting, and one of Lee's best villains is he does have a motivation other than just being evil for the sake of evil.

But, I would disagree with him that this means he isn't still the villain. Just going by what Lee had Doom doing, he betrayed people who were helping him. Planned outright murder. Nearly destroyed the world at one point. And if we get away from just what Lee was writing, we get the times he skinned an innocent alive to power some armor. The time he bombed innocents as a diversion. The time he committed intergalactic genocide. I could go on.

He is a villain by any logical understanding of the word. He's a complex villain, but still a villain.

[{quoted}](name=Le Shenpai,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=dBHJ2A7q,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-08T14:25:29.001+0000)

ehhh if you read the comics Dr.Doom is only trying to take over the world because he has been to the future and seen that the only the one where he rules is the one where there is no suffering.

Crude deeds with good intentions

Still makes for a villain. It is why Batman doesn't get off scotch-free when he leaves a criminal in a coma or something.

Hitler loved dogs and animals, and the Nazis were revolutionary in their humane treatment of animals.

[{quoted}](name=Tesla Effect,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=dBHJ2A7q,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T14:58:16.374+0000)

Your name, I know where it comes from (dem 18+ comics lewl)

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]