The Problem with the Lore of League

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO··10 votes·4,803 views

There’s never a time when someone isn’t voicing their concerns or complaints with the lore here on the SA&S boards. As someone who consistently enjoys the lore updates I usually just dismiss these posts or try to argue with them, but after recent events I’ve started to formulate this half-baked theory. I’m not an expert, nor am I a good writer, but here’s what I think.

The largest problem with a storytelling format like League of Legends is the fact that every character has to (theoretically) be given the same amount of focus and all characters receive the same (gradual) treatment.

In comic books a lot of villains have these wild outlandish plans, and you know more or less the hero will eventually save the day (in some cases). However the villains aren’t just villains, good comic book villains serve as foils and other literary devices to the heroes.

Keep in mind that when I say “villains” and “heroes” I really mean “main character” and “side characters”

Batman I would say has the most infamous rogues gallery, and over time his villains and his allies have grown as well, All of the robins have seen development as solo protagonists but at the end of the day it all comes back to Batman.

League of Legends can’t really have a Batman so to speak, they have to give all 130+ champions an independent voice and perspective on the world.

I think that’s why the Void and Shadow Isles champions tend to be the most consistently liked when it comes to lore. You don’t really need an emotional arc or anything like that when you’re writing for Cho’Gath or Rek’Sai. In fact Rek’Sai’s color story was told from another perspective entirely besides her own.

Point is the more clear cut villainous champions of LoL usually have well recieved lore because they are the forever antagonists of League of Legends, people don’t root for them because they’re sympathetic or strike a chord, they root for them because they’re fucking badass bad guys.

So when you have the rest of the cast as each being a sort of morally grey protagonist with their own depth and perspective you get a lot more arguments from people when it comes time for their lore to be revisited because their lore is much more vulnerable to the tiniest change in nuance spoiling all of it for some people.

So with all these bios Riot is trying to turn some of the champions who may have been at first morally complex or sympathetic into more clear-cut visages of horror or might then people tend to get very miffed.

Anyway, just my little rant based on things I’ve observed.

70 Comments

Beyond Legends2 votes

Riot has been actually removing lot of clear cut villan nature from alot of characters and nation which often seem to ignore, (Renekton, Warwick, Noxus, Zed etc).

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO5 votes

Renekton kept the same arc as a once noble hero corrupted by the evil of others into a mindless beast focused on revenge.

People enjoyed the lore updates of Warwick and Noxus, and I’m fairly certain nothing major changes with Zed.

Riot’s adding sympathy and backstory to villains like Xerath, but at the end of the day Xerath is still functioning as an opposing force, the dark emperor to Azir.

I’m not saying that one thing or another is good, I’m saying when Riot goes through with their changes to the lores for champions that have heavy fan investment, that’s usually when you see a lot of complaints on here.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Xerath wasn’t originally a villain. Same as Trundle.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO4 votes

I’m fairly certain Xerath was always a villain, I believe his motivations changed, but he always ended up power hungry.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

Xerath was technically originally an anti-hero. But yeah, the lore definitely was setting him up for the villain role.

But he would have been a specific type of villain. More Dr Frankenstein’s obsession with knowledge and just being a dick about it and less Jafar the backstabbing magical vizier.

GreenLore3 votes

How was he originally an anti hero in the old lore? He destroyed large parts of shurima and killed a lot of people(how many he killed wasn't specified,maybe it were hundreds,but it could have easily been thousands,if not millions as well) and for what?Power. Did he plan to use this power for a greater good?No he just wanted to have it.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Yes. That’s what an antihero is. A protagonist that does not conform to the normal precepts of being heroic. While still possessing a drive to make them the main character of their story.

Xerath’s story is entirely focused on his actions and motivations while all other characters are described in relation to his desires and movements. He also does not possess the standard characteristics of a hero: morality, empathy, and all of that.

He’s pretty standard antihero really.

Ain’t the terms fault it got coopted to start meaning “heroes who happen to be mean and/or bloodthirsty.”

Beyond Legends2 votes

That's not what a anti hero is. Just being the protagonist of a story doesn't make you a anti hero. A anti hero is someone who despite lacking the normal heroic quality will trying to achieve something that leads to it being the “right thing”

Old Xerath was selfish in his research which led to the death of hundreds of people. That's not a anti hero archetype but more of sympathetic villian one

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Mate we are on the internet. You can just look up a term if you don’t know it.

Here I will do it for you:

Antihero from Merriam Webster

a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities.

That’s it.

Villain protagonists are, by definition a subset of antihero.

Is Xerath a protagonist in his lore? Yes. Is he lacking in heroic qualities? Yes.

Congrats. He’s an antihero.

Beyond Legends3 votes

So if I wrote a story with the joker as the protagonist, does it mean that the joker is an anti hero?

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Within the context of that story, yes.

You could maybe make a claim that within the context of the wider Batman lore he’s still the villain. But honestly I think that argument is kinda shaky.

GreenLore4 votes

There is a difference between Anti-hero and Villain protagonist.

Just being the protagonist doesn't automatically make you the hero.

GreenLore2 votes

Overall a lot of people seem to dislike the idea of their champion becoming a villain if they haven't done anything too evil in the lore,even if the champion is obviously meant to be a villain.

KoKoboto4 votes

I'm pretty ticked off that Vayne went from Batman-y character that looks Bayonetta-y to a psychopath. Although I don't play Vayne much the ONLY reason I would play her from time to time was because of this.

GreenLore5 votes

Well thats the general problem with the old lore,it never really gave us enough characterization for most champs. We never knew how old Vayne ticked,so people filled out the blanks.

She might have been batman in the old lore,only hunting those who deserve it,or she might have been a psychopath already back then.

KoKoboto1 votes

Not really. You listen to her voice lines and you read just a gist of her lore and you should get an overall understanding or base line for how she acts. It's like with Quinn. Although her lore had barely anything you could understand her personality from her voice lines and her story enough. And when they came out with her new lore they did a great job at keeping that character in tact but now added more to it.

Vayne on the other hand is just a psychopath. She had nothing pertaining to psychopathy beforehand or at all. She fought against black magicks because black magicks were bad, not because it was fun for her to do. Now she shows the characteristics of a psychopath from her manipulative being and lack of care for others.

GreenLore2 votes

Well that arguement falls kinda flat because of the VO of a lot of old champs was disconnected from their lore and barely gave insight into their characters. For example Ahri was said to feel sorry for those she killed,yet her VO was cocky and made fun of her prey. Another one would be Viktor,whose VO is clearly intended for a villain,yet people saw him as a misunderstood hero because of his lore. GPs lore described him as a ruthless and serious pirate,yet ingame he was quite jolly.

And lets not forget champs whose VO is so bland that it sounds like they simply got a few random lines that fit their theme like Janna

KoKoboto1 votes

Not every champion. Champions like Vayne worked, same with champions like Renekton.

GreenLore1 votes

Not really. Vaynes VO never gave us any indication of why she was hunting or how important it was to her to save innocents.

Renektons VO never touched upon the fact that he was once a hero of his people.

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty ticked off that Vayne went from Batman-y character that looks Bayonetta-y to a psychopath. Although I don't play Vayne much the ONLY reason I would play her from time to time was because of this.

Hmmm

Vayne earned her first kill - a bloodthirsty creature who preyed on traveling merchants - at the age of eighteen. Soaked in the creature's viscera, something awoke within Vayne: pleasure. The hot flush of vengeance and violence raced through her blood, and she relished in the sensation. (....) One day, Vayne realized that she loved Frey like a mother, but her emotions of familial love were so tangled with pain and tainted by trauma, Vayne fought them as she would any beast out to hurt her.

Well I mean, if you stare into the abyss long enough....it stares into you. Her world has become stark black and white. Some of this, mind you, might stem from her Demacian upbrining. The irony is perhaps figures like Aatrox and Evelynn might actually admire her for her savagery. Of course, she would never willingly join them.

See when she smiled after killing the woman who became like mother -maybe even lover for their heresy of being a werewolf? That's when she began to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67JpMyrOVE

Those who truly understand, realize she has no right to let them live. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.

WHAT WOULD BE INTERESTING would be to seeVayne interaction with JarvanIV and Shyvana . Further interaction with Lucian beyond Harrowing would be interesting, seeing how they contrast.

KoKoboto1 votes

Sure it can be stark black and white and she could be a Garen, Darius, Camille, but she's not. She fights black magicks because it's fun, not out of a sense of justice or protection she once had. Funnily enough Garen, Darius, and Camille probably have more empathy and a greater sense of remorse than her while Vayne manipulates things and looks for the most "fun" way to kill her targets. To be honest we can't even say if she wouldn't just Evelynn or other evil things. What if they gave her the opportunity to kill a ton of evil things? Her character now would definitely want to consider something like that. Lmfao, the first line on her universe page is this... "I don’t kill creatures like you because it’s the right thing to do. I kill you because I enjoy it". She's just a psychopath now...

Lmfao what do you mean by no sacrifice too great? Frey wasn't EVIL, why did she have to die? She studied black magicks in order to fight other people with black magicks. She had no ambition to go on and kill a bunch of people, she just wanted revenge like Vayne and she SAVED HER LIFE. Vayne's reaction is also psychopath, she smiled because she hunted down another black magick thingy.

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

Sure it can be stark black and white and she could be a Garen, Darius, Camille, but she's not. She fights black magicks because it's fun, not out of a sense of justice or protection she once had. Funnily enough Garen, Darius, and Camille probably have more empathy and a greater sense of remorse than her while Vayne manipulates things and looks for the most "fun" way to kill her targets. To be honest we can't even say if she wouldn't just Evelynn or other evil things. What if they gave her the opportunity to kill a ton of evil things? Her character now would definitely want to consider something like that. Lmfao, the first line on her universe page is this... "I don’t kill creatures like you because it’s the right thing to do. I kill you because I enjoy it". She's just a psychopath now...

Lmfao what do you mean by no sacrifice too great? Frey wasn't EVIL, why did she have to die? She studied black magicks in order to fight other people with black magicks. She had no ambition to go on and kill a bunch of people, she just wanted revenge like Vayne and she SAVED HER LIFE. Vayne's reaction is also psychopath, she smiled because she hunted down another black magick thingy.

So what you're saying is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmoLd_YiQ-U

Dreamspitter2 votes

I mean to be highly technical...everyone's the hero of their own story. And while I understand what you mean, and what it seems Rito is trying to do...I still like antihero and antivillain.

I feel characters like Viktor/Jayce could be foils. But Viktor at least original lore, wasn't a bad guy. And neither was Jayce even though lots of people died because of him.

RiotRiot Scathlocke11 votes

You've really nailed it here... everyone is always the hero of their own story. No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?" Otherwise, what you've got is a bland and tedious villain archetype, and not an antagonist. :-)

Speaking as a relative newbie to Riot and the LoL IP (I only started in January this year) I was actually amazed by how thin and inconsistent some of the older lore was. As has already been pointed out on this thread, there was a lot of designed-by-committee backstory for champions who probably wouldn't pass muster now, in the game. The thing I'm looking for, as Lead Narrative Editor, is story hooks we can pull out of old content, and develop into something new and interesting.

(And also, having stories that are ACTUAL stories, rather than just cool scenes!)

We have a lot of story content coming in the near future, and plans for grander, more ambitious stuff too. I hope you guys, having already shown an interest in this side of things, will stick around and let me/us know what you think as we get to it... :-)

And the biggest problem, going right back to the top of the conversation, is picking which characters to write about. We can't fit all 130+ champions into every story, and whichever ones we don't cover will be noticeable in their absence. Everyone is somebody's favourite!

So, an Amumu novel where he tries to make friends with Cho'Gath? Anyone? Anyone?

Blood Magicks3 votes

The thing I'm looking for, as Lead Narrative Editor, is story hooks we can pull out of old content, and develop into something new and interesting.

Was teenage Vladimir's blood magic mountain adventure one such hook? I've since grown to enjoy the new direction of his lore but I have to say this part will be greatly missed.

Dreamspitter3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blood Magicks,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cEaxbeXI,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-11-27T23:07:31.802+0000)

Was teenage Vladimir's blood magic mountain adventure one such hook? I've since grown to enjoy the new direction of his lore but I have to say this part will be greatly missed.

Wait. I don't remember this one.

Blood Magicks1 votes

First paragraph of old lore

There is a temple hidden in the mountains between Noxus and the Tempest Flats, where the secrets of an ancient and terrifying sorcery are kept. The area surrounding the temple is littered with the exsanguinated corpses of those who have mistakenly wandered too close. These served only to pique the curiosity of Vladimir, when - in his youth - he trekked through these mountains during his flight from Noxus.

Ralanr9 votes

“Sion, beware of Ravens”

Also any lore on what Sion was like before he died would be great.

Blood Magicks2 votes

On the topic of storyline suggestions, the following part of Luxanna's lore intrigues me:

She came to understand that the Demacian way was not the only way, able now to recognize its flaws as well as its boons.

I wonder how cool it would be to narrate her paradigm shift throughout her travels, maybe perhaps in conversation with characters from Noxus and Piltover. Especially Noxus, since she's grown up in a closed, isolationist kindgom and essentially encounters a functioning multicultural society for the first time. I wonder how she would reach to see mages revered and foreigners accepted. I wonder if she'll struggle to keep and open mind or if she'll struggle to stay loyal to her own kingdom - or a bit of both, at different times.

EDIT: sorry for double-posting

mike in the box10 votes

For about 4 month I told bed time stories to my 2 year old daughter about Amumu making friends with the entire LOL cast. Until he met Braum and then Braum had to be in every Amumu story.

So ya, I would like to hear your version of that story [slayer-jinx-wink]

Ralanr4 votes

I’d like to hear all these stories.

GenoXx2 votes

You seem smart and knows what the community is interested in seeing. Just want to say I'm looking forward to see what works you have contributed help on/to in the future.

Dreamspitter3 votes

{quoted}

You've really nailed it here... everyone is always the hero of their own story. No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?" Otherwise, what you've got is a bland and tedious villain archetype, and not an antagonist. :-)

Speaking as a relative newbie to Riot and the LoL IP (I only started in January this year) I was actually amazed by how thin and inconsistent some of the older lore was. As has already been pointed out on this thread, there was a lot of designed-by-committee backstory for champions who probably wouldn't pass muster now, in the game. The thing I'm looking for, as Lead Narrative Editor, is story hooks we can pull out of old content, and develop into something new and interesting.

(And also, having stories that are ACTUAL stories, rather than just cool scenes!)

We have a lot of story content coming in the near future, and plans for grander, more ambitious stuff too. I hope you guys, having already shown an interest in this side of things, will stick around and let me/us know what you think as we get to it... :-)

And the biggest problem, going right back to the top of the conversation, is picking which characters to write about. We can't fit all 130+ champions into every story, and whichever ones we don't cover will be noticeable in their absence. Everyone is somebody's favourite!

So, an Amumu novel where he tries to make friends with Cho'Gath? Anyone? Anyone?

Veigar Doesn't need a reason. For him it's not a means to an end.

Or is it?

Does he want something?

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

{quoted}

You've really nailed it here... everyone is always the hero of their own story. No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?" Otherwise, what you've got is a bland and tedious villain archetype, and not an antagonist. :-)

No, then you get an amazing master of evil. Veigar

6FlagsFunnelCake4 votes

I like how this can actually applied to some of League's most nefarious and (considerably) truly EVIL Champions.

DrMundo - Not exactly right in the head, he's simply batshit insane and has grown to delusion himself as a doctor and genuinely thinks that these gruesome cleaver-head-inducing murders are true acts of medical assistance and 'medicine'

Evelynn - She's just hungry, and wants to NUTT lure people in to feast on their pain, it's simply in her nature.

Leblanc - We...don't really know. Her whole niche is literally us not knowing, so can't exactly say how it works with her.

Singed - In my opinion, the most 'evil' Champion on my personal list. From scarring Riven and causing her to dessert the Noxian empire, to ruining the lives of thousands of Ionians (Master Yi), as well as ending millions, hell he even caused Quillete (Darius's girly-friend) to get her arm chopped off. Not to mention Warwick's entire origin, poor guy. But reading his new bio, he seems to be going the path of a 'true' Zaunite, someone with such great intellect they are willing to push the boundaries at any cost, even their own sanity. Though brilliant, he has obviously gone WAY too far.

Sour Sweet2 votes

{quoted}

Leblanc - We...don't really know. Her whole niche is literally us not knowing, so can't exactly say how it works with her.

We don't need any info. Goddess must stay a mystery.

nosafterburn4 votes

{quoted}

No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?"

so what about Veigar then. Is he no longer the Tiny Master of Evil?

RiotRiot Scathlocke4 votes

He most certainly is! Immediately after I posted my first comment, Veigar appeared beside my desk, cackled evilly, and turned me into a newt... SO MUCH EVIL!

Ironically, he actually really liked his newly re-worded short bio. We went for coffee. Nice guy, underneath all the EVIL.

Raxistaicho3 votes

{quoted}

You've really nailed it here... everyone is always the hero of their own story. No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?" Otherwise, what you've got is a bland and tedious villain archetype, and not an antagonist. :-)

Oh, I beg to differ, sometimes a guy who's just an unapologetic monster can be highly refreshing.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/45/Rhaast_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170805182806

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/6/6b/Alarak_BlizzCon_Art2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20151021081507

RiotRiot Scathlocke3 votes

I can't comment on Starcraft... :-P

But Rhaast on his own would be far less interesting. It's only in combination with Kayn that the evil darkin scythe opens up choices, storytelling opportunities and a chance to explore the themes of power and temptation. Or something.

Raxistaicho1 votes

I will admit that Rhaast definitely comes across as more diabolical when he's trying to corrupt Kayn:

"Zed's order shackles you, I offer freedom!" "Such an obsequious pupil, I will be your new master." "The rage is in your hands, let it loose!" "There is fear in your grip and doubt in your heart."

And also Kayn feels a touch more badass when he's casually chatting with and threatening a demonic sentient scythe.

Is their shared dialogue in Kayn's base form basically how their relationship would be in the lore, with Rhaast trying to carefully wheedle Kayn into just letting loose and massacring people?

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Honestly, I'm hoping we're gonna see some more champions who have 2+ characters to interact with.

Rhaast/Kayn's VO get way less interesting after the transformation, because what makes them interesting (in terms of VO) is the way they interact with each other. Well, that's my opinion atleast.

Same reason I loved the interaction Talion and Celebrimbor have in Shadow of Mordor/War.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

You make any story about Atreus -not Pantheon, preferably having nothing to do with Pantheon- and I’d be very happy.

Nefas1 votes

That is the same spiel that Riot Lore/Narrative/World Building/whatever has been giving for 3 years and the returns are an embarrassment. You spend more time burning houses down than building them up. Maybe you put down a new foundation but by the time you get back to it you’ve probably changed your minds on what the house is going to be.

Sëtíer1 votes

{quoted}

That is the same spiel that Riot Lore/Narrative/World Building/whatever has been giving for 3 years and the returns are an embarrassment. You spend more time burning houses down than building them up. Maybe you put down a new foundation but by the time you get back to it you’ve probably changed your minds on what the house is going to be.

^^^^^ Ever year a rioter will comment how they have 'big plans' but new dates or timeframes, no real information on Who or What they are actually working on. We do want "Real Stories" like mentioned by Scathlocke, we need a base Runeterra lore that explains the lands and where the 'magic energy' comes from. We need stories and lands, and cities and champion history that all links together Smoothly. Thats a good word for it.

Please, can anyone give me a link or something for history on the Darkin? I know varus is a knew 'darkin' character. and there are only 5 apparently?? Lore is HUGE.

Also side note, where does "League of Legends" name fit in to the lore...anywhere? I think it should be mentioned. Thanks!!

TerraRising1 votes

{quoted}

Speaking as a relative newbie to Riot and the LoL IP (I only started in January this year) I was actually amazed by how thin and inconsistent some of the older lore was.

As a veteran of the old Lore Discussion Forums, to see the League lore handed over to someone with such... "limited" exposure to it is troubling. At least with other leads (Kitae, TommyGnox, Jaredan), we knew what their history in video game storytelling was. So... who in the blue hell are you?

(With a name of a Destiny 2 gun as your handle, however, I'm certainly hoping you're not who I think you are.)

As has already been pointed out on this thread, there was a lot of designed-by-committee backstory for champions who probably wouldn't pass muster now, in the game. The thing I'm looking for, as Lead Narrative Editor, is story hooks we can pull out of old content, and develop into something new and interesting.

Fair enough. I'm more than willing to see if you can take from the old lore and make something out of it.

However, some of us have been on this road before and it didn't end well then. (It ended with a death threat towards a rather dismissive Lore Rioter and a Narrative Lead running away from the job after doing his damage.)

Best of luck, sir. I hope you can live up to your words.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

You've really nailed it here... everyone is always the hero of their own story. No one should be portrayed as thinking "How evil can I be today? What nefarious deeds can I commit?" Otherwise, what you've got is a bland and tedious villain archetype, and not an antagonist.

Isn't that exactly what you guys did with Eve's lore update?

The old Eve was a person, albeit a needlessly mysterious one. If she was, I dunno, a human touched by the Glade or whatever and given creepy dark spirit powers that she used to be an expensive assassin? That could be explored. That's someone who can change and grow.

But she was turned into a demon, a force of nature more or less. She acts on impulses to feed her desires more or less like Pennywise the Dancing Clown. That really isn't something you can write stories about. That's something that you can write stories wherein someone else OVERCOMES her as a challenge. And from the look of things, she's meant to be the impetus for Vayne and nothing else.

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