The Lore Powercreep Does not Matter

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO·Feb 2, 2018·52 votes·24,247 views

Yes, Riot has producing powerful characters since the removal of the Institute of War. No, this does not mean a damn thing for the lore.

Powercreep is a factor in game design because every champion should be able to contend with every other champion. Talon may have to lane against Aurelion Sol, but he can still assassinate the space dragon easily.

In the lore however, there is almost no reason for Talon and Aurelion to ever have to interact. Riot’s narrative philosophy is creating a larger world filled with smaller stories. Ornn and Volibear will continue to clash like the demigods they are, and Ekko will continue to beat up thugs in Zaun.

This is why I don’t think Powercreep in the lore is a big deal at all.

117 Comments

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 2, 201838 votes

It's an interesting topic, whichever way you slice it...

I always remind myself: magic users are probably a very small percentage of the overall population of Runeterra, and champions in LoL are only the ~140 most exceptional beings in the entire setting (although that number is rising!)

League of Legends, the game, is a team-based abstraction of the lore. When I play X-Wing, I don't think I am playing a canonical Star Wars ship battle - just a competitive game fantasy based on it. :-) And the moment we start looking at lore in a "My dad could beat up your dad!" way, the authenticity rapidly diminishes.

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore, although we're trying to clarify that more and more as we go on. For a real world analogy, Julius Caesar couldn't get into a team fight with Ronda Rousey, f'rinstance.

None of this should affect how each player chooses to enjoy the lore or the game, though!

XenohazFeb 2, 20187 votes

Do we have any estimate of how many people are magic users on Runeterra? Obviously they're a minority, but I'm curious how significant a number they are. For instance, how likely is it that a random person's met a magic user in their life?

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 2, 201820 votes

I don't know if a number has ever been put out there. I suggested, anecdotally, it might be <10% of the mortal population (be that humans, or whatever else) and no one in that particular Rioter discussion disagreed. But that's far from canon! :-)

You then have species like the vastaya, who are very connected to magic. Or demons, which are purely spiritual forms. Or ageless space dragons, who... well, you get the idea! Those races skew the average in certain ways, in certain places, at certain times. Ionia is far more magical than Noxus, and Demacia is profoundly anti-magic (in theory).

I'd say... think of it in terms of "how likely is it that a random person in the real world has met someone who owns an iPhone?" Because although there are countless diehard Apple fans across the world, the brand doesn't have as much market presence in some countries/cultures, or some people just prefer Android, some people don't have a phone at all, etc. In your lifetime? Sure, you probably met at least one iPhone owner. But that could just be where you live, or how wealthy you are, etc. It's all relative.

So yes, confirmed. Smartphones = real world magic. ;-)

ULTRAF0RCEFeb 3, 20183 votes

Would you want it to be something like the percentage of humans who practice Wicca in the USA since I remember someone talking about how there's less then 1 million people who consider themselves wiccan in the USA. And due to the ideas people have about Wicca a person will probably meet a wiccan but will not know they have, would that be kind of what's going on with magic in Runeterra or would that be more specifcally how it is in Demacia where you might pass by someone who actually has magic but you and them won't know because of the anti-magic views of Demacia and the amount of Petricite.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20183 votes

I'd have to learn more about the sort of numbers and context you're talking about, but that certainly seems like a similar idea, at least :-)

HellioningFeb 2, 20181 votes

None of this should affect how each player chooses to enjoy the lore or the game, though!

The game, I can understand. Riot has long since said that the lore and game are completely disconnected at this point.

I don't know how Riot stating 'these champs don't even exist at the same time as each other' shouldn't affect someone's way of enjoying the lore, though. That's like saying 'it is physically impossible for Talon to kill Sol. Feel free to write stories about him doing so, though'. If you're directly contradicting the lore, what's even the point of pretending to be a fan of it?

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 2, 201811 votes

Sorry, not sure I follow - writing stories? Canon doesn't include fan fiction. In fact, that's actively un-canon... by definition... Or am I misunderstanding your point?

And are you saying no one can be a fan if they can't contribute to the canon themselves? I mean, I've never contributed to Battlestar Galactica, but I would still call myself a fan.

Rude NameFeb 3, 20182 votes

Does fan fiction inspire canon? For example, do you read a convincing prospect about Kindred meeting Urf? Is Urf even canon? Have you ever read something in, say, one of the writing competitions, and thought that it would fit into LoL really well? I guess I'm just curious about the influence the community has in terms of the canon lore.

ULTRAF0RCEFeb 3, 20181 votes

League had a rule at least a few years ago where the lore team wasn't able to look at League fanfiction to make sure they didn't accidentally copy anything from it and in turn get in trouble for properly giving credit, I remember since I had suggested a few people read Spellthief which is a really long and good fanfiction about a mission Lux takes undercover in Noxus.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20183 votes

This is correct, we cannot read fan-fiction.

However, we can and do keep up to date with player theories, and what they'd like to see - Riot literally has teams dedicated to asking players what they like and don't like. And sometimes, those wishes can inspire teams to take an idea in a new direction.

HellioningFeb 4, 20183 votes

I think me saying 'stories' muddled my point. My bad.

The point I was getting at is that actively saying 'these champs might not exist at the same time' or 'the authenticity diminishes if you try to figure out power levels' absolutely has an affect on how people enjoy the lore, and I don't see how you can pretend otherwise.

Chromatic EagleFeb 2, 20183 votes

It's hard to get a layout of Runeterra. Humans are the dominant species, and magic users are rare, but we know there are magic soldiers, Twisted Fate's people, etc. What about Ionians? They seem to be the most magical, but how well known are they to the rest of the world?

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore

I don't understand this.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 2, 201813 votes

We're working to clarify all of this. :-) It's certainly never been done in a single, directed way before now.

RE: existing at the same time - Qui-Gon Jinn and Luke Skywalker did not exist in the Star Wars universe at the same time, but you can still play them together in games. Does that make sense?

Chromatic EagleFeb 2, 20186 votes

Yes, but in that context, Qui-Gon is dead by the time Luke exists. What exactly does that mean in LoL? Dead characters? People younger than they are in the lore?

XenohazFeb 2, 201824 votes

Well, it's unclear whether or not some characters exist at all. For instance, Braum and Kled are folk heroes of their respective nations, but not all folk heroes are/were actually real people. Also, Braum 's story is a bedtime story told by someone's grandmother, who heard the story from her grandmother. So either Braum has been dead for a few generations, or he's immortal (or at least ageless, or at the very least not a normal flesh-and-blood human), or he never existed at all.

AmazoXFeb 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Well, it's unclear whether or not some characters exist at all. For instance, and are folk heroes of their respective nations, but not all folk heroes are/were actually real people. Also, 's story is a bedtime story told by someone's grandmother, who heard the story from her grandmother. So either has been dead for a few generations, or he's immortal (or at least ageless, or at the very least not a normal flesh-and-blood human), or he never existed at all.

This comment is good. +1

TerozuFeb 3, 20188 votes

I was actually wandering about Kled yesterday lol. Like, does he even really serve Noxus? Or did he hear their ideals, kill the guy he heard it from, take the ideals for his own like his titles, and when he says "Noxus" he's referring to himself and Skaarl.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20184 votes

This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. Great insight from Xenohaz! :-)

DecritFeb 2, 20184 votes

Probably he is talking about champion not necessarily living on the same time, or that they live at all.

For example, Fiddlesticks might not even be a real scarecrow existing in the world but just a character of a widely known folk story. Most probably it will be a charater in flesh and bones ( or wood and terror?), it's just to make an example.

Or maybe the characters are introduced together, but never have the chance to actually meet because one dies while the other lives. Not saying it's gonna happen, of that is cool if it happens.

Star GuardíanFeb 3, 20183 votes

Yeah, basically.

This is how I see it:

Take for example the Lord of the Rings MOBA. I don't know much about LotR, but I assuming in canon Tolkien lore, many of the characters never faced of and many of the game assets and mechanics never existed. In other words, the LotR MOBA is a representation of the canon lore that Tolkien created put into a game format.

Another thing to realize, in games like LoL or Overwatch, the character in game is just a snapshot/representation of the character in a moment in time. So say if in the lore a champion goes through a major character arc, it wouldn't necessarily be represented in the gameplay.

BreakuFeb 3, 20183 votes

It would make the lore feel much much worse if the characters don't all exist at the same time.

KuroCaliberFeb 3, 20188 votes

I'm a slight bit concerned about champions not existing at the same time. Simply that if they didn't, then, it gets a lot less fun trying to piece it all together. One of the biggest issues I had with the old IoW lore was that they'd often bring champions across space like Malphite, Taric and Kayle/Morgana. Isn't this the same issue but with time separating them? If these events happen centuries apart, then...I suppose I don't feel as invested that this isn't some kind of era-defining time in Runeterra, an age of champions so to speak. I suppose there would be ways to make it work, but I still feel kind of jilted that for some champions, they'd never even have the opportunity to meet. It kind of allows for fans to fantasize within reason of what two characters with similar power levels would do when they meet, or how they'd interact. I'm just a bit disappointed, because I had ideas for a massive interconnecting story, that I was writing for league... But I kinda feel like it might be useless to continue any further knowing that there's no chance something like that actually happening. I... suppose this is really just me being biased because it was a big dream of mine to finish this story...but my favorite thing about the lore was the fact that it was all interconnected and one champions lore could affect another instead of isolated stories.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20186 votes

I'm going to reply here, but I think this covers several parts of the discussion elsewhere in the thread too... :-)

To be clear: I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that "champions do not exist all at the same time". I'm saying that certain stories do not make it clear whether or not specific champions are active in the same place, at the same time.

This works both ways. If we assume there is a "now" (which there is!) and that all ~140 champs are active right now, then they can all potentially interact with one another in whatever ways make for the best and most exciting stories. You can expect to see more and more of that kind of storytelling in the near future.

However... if there is a "now", then there was a "past", and therefore an implied canonical timeline. Riot has told stories set in the past of the timeline - even the Darius comic showed some events from 5 (?) years ago, and as Xenohaz pointed out, Braum has apparently been around for multiple generations. This means either that humans in our setting don't age or die (seems unlikely!) or that we have to assume that some champions are very unlikely to ever interact outside of the game, because the days, weeks, months and years of their lives are gradually being filled up with storylines.

If we tell a story set 5 years in the past, or an origins story for a champion even further back, then we have to consider the fact that younger champions would be children... or not even born yet. Then you have to literally start working out "when is now?" and how old LITERALLY every single champion is, and whether or not they age like regular people.

That's all I meant :-)

There is positive movement at Riot towards making internally consistent lore - we're not there yet, but we're making progress. I'd urge everyone not to see this as a limiting factor, but a chance to see more stories which have meaningful connections and an internal logic across all of them.

And as always, I welcome your thoughts and feedback on this. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to hear what you all had to say.

MogarlFeb 3, 20184 votes

I'm quoting you froma previous comment but I feel the response is a bit more complete her.

{quoted}

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore, although we're trying to clarify that more and more as we go on. For a real world analogy, Julius Caesar couldn't get into a team fight with Ronda Rousey, f'rinstance.

None of this should affect how each player chooses to enjoy the lore or the game, though!

That CAN, and definitely would affect a person's ability to enjoy the lore. The biggest problem with your thought process is that we know the timeline in the Starwars universe. In league we don't. We know when Qui-Gon was around and we know the decisions he made that caused greater effect in the universe.

League needs a "core" event time. Not one event but simply a span of 50~ years that the cast were all active; a period where 99% of the cast are all present in the universe. Some can continue on from here some will have been champions long before. The exceptions to this should only be champions that had a huge impact in the creation of another champion, but died before "core" event time.

In this essence Luke meets Qui-Gon in a game that's fine. However Julius Ceaser and Ronda Rousey aren't relevant to the same story, and at that scope they aren't really special anymore.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20184 votes

You make a great point. And, FWIW, I agree - Runeterra needs a "now", which will naturally give us a "past" and an implied future.

I think we might actually be on exactly the same page, so I hope I've allayed your concern a little?

kargishFeb 2, 20187 votes

Insert obligatory unrelated question about game balance here

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 201810 votes

[Responds with polite "I don't know, but I'll ask around"...] ;-)

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 3, 201819 votes

Woah woah woah woah. Hold on bro.

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore, although we're trying to clarify that more and more as we go on. For a real world analogy, Julius Caesar couldn't get into a team fight with Ronda Rousey, f'rinstance.

This is a HUGE thing to just drop on us like that. It can completely change the dynamic of the world as well as certain relationships with characters. We're already a bit iffy on certain things and not eveything is fully explained so...you know. That's kind of a massive thing to just outright tell us. We're not entirely sure what the X or Y axis is and now you're coming in going "BRO CHECK OUT THAT Z AXIS THO"

SociopathFriendFeb 3, 20182 votes

This isn't a new thing though- I've definitely heard this before. It's not a bombshell to repeat it.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 3, 20187 votes

I've heard it before but only in ideation/fan theories. Never seen or heard a rioter say "Yeah it's like this/may be like this."

That said, if you can point me towards this info, I'd appreciate it.

RiotRiot ScathlockeFeb 3, 20185 votes

All we can do is continue to explore the lore, and find ways to make the X and Y axis clear. I am 100% with you on that :-)

(And I'm totally stealing that X/Y/Z analogy, that's utterly perfect for describing this!)

SolarisCorvusFeb 3, 20186 votes

{quoted}

It's an interesting topic, whichever way you slice it...

I always remind myself: magic users are probably a very small percentage of the overall population of Runeterra, and champions in LoL are only the ~140 most exceptional beings in the entire setting (although that number is rising!)

League of Legends, the game, is a team-based abstraction of the lore. When I play X-Wing, I don't think I am playing a canonical Star Wars ship battle - just a competitive game fantasy based on it. :-) And the moment we start looking at lore in a "My dad could beat up your dad!" way, the authenticity rapidly diminishes.

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore, although we're trying to clarify that more and more as we go on. For a real world analogy, Julius Caesar couldn't get into a team fight with Ronda Rousey, f'rinstance.

None of this should affect how each player chooses to enjoy the lore or the game, though!

All I got from this is that Julius Ceaser and Ronda Rousey are the next champs in league and are going to have a lore rivalry that defies time.

TerraRisingFeb 3, 20187 votes

{quoted}

It's not even entirely clear whether all the LoL champions exist at the same time in the lore, although we're trying to clarify that more and more as we go on.

In the words of a wise man... "What the actual fuh-?"

Eight years of retcons, controversial rewrites, the creation of a department in charge of world building, and all the other drama from Narrative... and no one's thought to answer the fundamental question of whether or not these champs exist in the same time frame?

I mean, this is one of those questions that should be clarified and confirmed from the outset, so we fans know who we should invest our time and energy in.

I mean, if Braum was just a fairy tale told to Freljord children to help them feel safe during the harsh winters and not a living champ that wants to introduce Alistar to his cow, this should be established as soon as possible.

Otherwise, you'll get more resentment when fans and players realize that all the time and energy they spent enjoying their favorite champ was just wasted once the truth is revealed.

None of this should affect how each player chooses to enjoy the lore or the game, though!

It does, however, and to suggest otherwise is surprising naive.

Given how attached some players get to their favorite champs, finding out that all their time, love and energy was wasted on a long-dead character that will never interact with the current story would be devastating to them.

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 201813 votes

{quoted}

In the lore however, there is almost no reason for Talon and Aurelion to ever have to interact.

I think that this is the exact reason of WHY it does matter, becasue champions with huge power will be never able to interact with champions that have way less power. If the power gap between Talon and Aurelion were not that huge, then it could be possible to think that those champions could interact between them... but its not the case.

If Olaf for example were a mighty god of thunders and axes intead of a crazy viking that likes to fight and wants to die, we would never have a "crossover" between him(from freljord), lucian(demacian) and fortune(bilgewater), but it happened because he is not a godlike being of thunders and axes.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOFeb 2, 201820 votes

But not every character should interact with each other. Doing so will make the world feel small, I appreciate that Riot is trying to cast a wide net in terms of appeal.

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 20188 votes

{quoted}

But not every character should interact with each other. Doing so will make the world feel small, I appreciate that Riot is trying to cast a wide net in terms of appeal.

Sure, not everyone should interact with each other, but the possibility should be still there since they all are in the same planet... However, if we look at the factions with the most powerfull champions, Shurima and Targon, it seems that their huge problems that sould affect the whole world, only affect them like they were in an Island... Xerath and Azir fight each other, but they dont interact with the rest of the world. The closest "link" between the factions in the threat of the Void, but we havent heard about the void attacking Demacia or Noxus for example... Its only focused on the factions that are powerfull enought to fight against them (shurima and targon) even when it should be a problem worldwide.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOFeb 2, 201810 votes

Well we know that people fight against the Void, that’s how Taric was exiled.

I don’t think you understand what kind of world we’re dealing with here. Random Demacian peasant doesn’t have the time to contemplate the void, or the immediacy with which his life could end. He has a field to farm and a family to feed

Go bigger, Garen. Sure, Garen will fight against voidlings when he finds them, but what can he do about the larger problem? If he decides to venture off into the world he’d be abandoning his duty.

The world of Runeterra has always featured a myriad of powerful threats capable of ending/dominating the world.

Also keep in mind that the characters aren’t necessarily knowledgeable about the happenings of the world. The only characters with that type of knowledge are your traveler-types.

Answer this. What is Caitlyn supposed to do about a civil war in Shurima?

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Well we know that people fight against the Void, that’s how Taric was exiled.

I don’t think you understand what kind of world we’re dealing with here. Random Demacian peasant doesn’t have the time to contemplate the void, or the immediacy with which his life could end. He has a field to farm and a family to feed

Go bigger, Garen. Sure, Garen will fight against voidlings when he finds them, but what can he do about the larger problem? If he decides to venture off into the world he’d be abandoning his duty.

The world of Runeterra has always featured a myriad of powerful threats capable of ending/dominating the world.

Also keep in mind that the characters aren’t necessarily knowledgeable about the happenings of the world. The only characters with that type of knowledge are your traveler-types.

Yeah, i get it, as I said before not everyone should interact with each other, there are other factors aside from the power, but the power still an important factor of why a character like Aurelion Sol could not travel from Targon to Ionia (as example) even if he (or Riot) wanted to.

Answer this. What is Caitlyn supposed to do about a civil war in Shurima?

Nothing at all because of the huge gap of power between her and characters like Xerath, that is the point... even if the extraction of Shuriman(that is even the word?) minerals that Piltover uses for power would be affected by the war, and therefore, have a huge impact on the Hextech devices that she and the rest of the people from Piltover uses everyday.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOFeb 2, 20186 votes

I still don't see how this is a bad thing.

GreenLoreFeb 2, 20185 votes

I wouldn't say that champions of different power levels can't interact. Remember that not every interaction has to be a big fight.

I mean take Aurelion Sol and Pantheon for example. Aurelion can crush pantheon easily,but that doesn't mean that the 2 can't interact. Or Taliyah and Nasus who did interact in the lore,even though Nasus is far more powerful than her.

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say that champions of different power levels can't interact. Remember that not every interaction has to be a big fight.

I mean take Aurelion Sol and Pantheon for example. Aurelion can crush pantheon easily,but that doesn't mean that the 2 can't interact. Or Taliyah and Nasus who did interact in the lore,even though Nasus is far more powerful than her.

Both examples are a powerful champion interacting with a less powerful champion from the same "faction". As far as we have seen, all the champions that are considered powerful only interact with champions that are related with their own faction... However, when we look at the champions that have less power, their interactions are way more wide and diverse, they are free to travel from one place to other... But the powerfull ones? No, they all are trapped in their own place.

GreenLoreFeb 2, 20182 votes

Thats mostly because most of the big powerhouses are champs that are pretty much centered around their faction. There wouldn't be much of a problem if they were wandering around as long as they don't go out of their way to solve other champions business.

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Thats mostly because most of the big powerhouses are champs that are pretty much centered around their faction. There wouldn't be much of a problem if they were wandering around as long as they don't go out of their way to solve other champions business.

Exactly and i dont think that is a coincidence that champions with huge power are centered arround their faction, it is a consequence of their power, a thing that could be avoided if they werent that powerfull in first place. So, yeah, the powercreep does matter... However, im not saying that its a bad or a good thing, its simply something that its there.

GreenLoreFeb 2, 20183 votes

Then what about Bard ? He is one of the more powerful characters and he is not tied to any faction.

Sure so far he hasn't interacted with anyone,but thats just because he is lacking in terms of lore in the first place.

Ebonmaw DragonFeb 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Then what about ? He is one of the more powerful characters and he is not tied to any faction.

Sure so far he hasn't interacted with anyone,but thats just because he is lacking in terms of lore in the first place.

Yeah, he and Kindred are the exception, but Bard only does things when the universe is in danger... so he can only interact with others in a very specific situation and if other champion interacts with kindred... if basically mean that the champion would die.

GreenLoreFeb 2, 20183 votes

Bard is said to often act in mysterious ways,so I wouldn't put it out of question that he'll interact with someone seemingly at random,only for it to have a big effect later on.

Because sometimes you don't need to be powerful to have a great effect on something. Sometimes you just need to be at the right time at the right place.

Warlord DienekesFeb 2, 20181 votes

Didn’t the only interaction those two have involved Sol casually crushing Panth?

And Taliyah just ran away without interacting with the actual opposition force of Xerath.

GreenLoreFeb 3, 20183 votes

Ebonmaws arguement was that higher level entities can't interact with weaker ones. Taliyah interacting with Nasus is an example of champions interacting peacefully.

Also the same story also has Nasus and Xerath fighting,even though Nasus didn't stood a chance.

And yes Sol crushed Pantheon,but Zoes lore implies that Pantheon is regularly the guy(or girl depending on the body) who commands Sol,even though Pantheon can easily be crushed by Sol.

SharjoFeb 2, 20181 votes

Aye but realistically what does that cross over matter? In WoW Sargeras was the size of a planet and the most interaction any of us had with him before he got imprisoned was watching him from literal miles away. Sometimes characters aren't meant to ever meet, be it because of where they live, who they are, what they are or because of how much stronger they are. It's not like such beings on the scale of Aurelion Sol are relatable and easy to fit in to such human sized arrangements anyway; his stories will always be cosmic in scale.

Chromatic EagleFeb 2, 20182 votes

As a WoW fan, I consider Sargeras to be a wasted character because of that. Compare him to Kil'Jaden or Gul'Dan. It would've been nice to see things from his perspective, but we can't because Azeroth is the main setting.

At least with Sol, we can read about him providing commentary about Runeterra.