Needlessly pedantic about Eve and Succubi

Rebonack··70 votes·3,715 views

I'm a big fan of folklore. I feel enduring ideas that arose across cultures resonate with people for a reason and make a great jumping off point for character creation in fantasy settings like League's. That said, I also feel inclined to mention something that pretty much 100% will not matter to most everyone.

So.

A succubus.

It's a demon that lures men by being attractive and then feeds on them, right? Well, not really. Not if we're talking the creature from European folklore rather than the D&D monster you'll find in the Monster Manual between Quasit and Vrock. In folklore, the succubus could be lumped into the general category of hags. Things that preyed on sleeping people and were used to explain sleep paralysis and nocturnal emission. A succubus, specifically, collected jizz from sleeping dudes and used it to make demon babies.

Seriously. Because mythology is weird.

The D&D succubus, by contrast, is an ambush predator. Sort of like mimics and ropers. But instead of pretending to be a treasure chest or a harmless stalagmite, a succubus pretends to be an imperiled damsel in distress. Once rescued, when the party Bard tries to fuck her, he gets level drained instead. Poor guy. This image of what a succubus is resonated with players quite a bit more than the old jizz-collector (gee, wonder why) and meme'd its way into basically every single fantasy setting that has arisen since.

Obviously Eve isn't a folklore-style succubus. She really isn't a D&D style succubus, either. She's not an ambush predator that passively waits for folks to let their guard down. If her teaser trailer is any indication, she lures people off with her allure and then reveals her true face, slaying them. As it so happens, there's a class of folklore critters that fits that to a T. They're generally referred to as 'Wild Women' and they happen to be the same class of creatures that the kumiho (Ahri) falls into.

In fact, there's a creature that almost exactly fits Eve's style and I was SUPER excited to see her teaser playing to that. The baobhan sith from Scottish mythology appeared as a beautiful, pale woman in the wilderness who used her beauty to lead men off into wilds. Once they were far from help, she would reveal her horrifying true form and devour them. That kind of maliciousness and allure matches Eve's themes perfectly.

Does any of this really matter at all? Nah, not really. But as a folklore fan it was a pretty big deal to me. Thanks Riot.

82 Comments

Larkreck33 votes

So what you're telling me is that we need an actual succubus champ with the ability to transform into something very desirable to lure the enemy players in and jump them... Like a cannon minion, or a control ward, right? [sg-syndra]

50000000000000007 votes

That would be amazing omg Some sort of anglerfish champion?

Rebonack11 votes

{quoted}

So what you're telling me is that we need an actual succubus champ with the ability to transform into something very desirable to lure the enemy players in and jump them... Like a cannon minion, or a control ward, right? [sg-syndra]

A champ who can disguise themselves as a control ward would be hilarious.

MuffledGarbage4 votes

uhhhhh if a Teemo puts down a control ward would that count?

MrryZ6 votes

Succubus Teemo Oh god what have we done...

ModKnightsKemplar13 votes

Excellent post. This is the sort of thing that I think it's really helpful to point out to people.

I wasn't mad about how Evelynn turned out (just based on what we know so far), but thanks for sharing your expertise! With any luck, some other people will feel better after seeing this, too.

A Superb Villain9 votes

Folklore is fun and interesting, but damn if it isn't exhausting given the sheer quantity of information it encompasses.

Eternal7919 votes

While you make a good put, what do you bet Riot was thinking succubus when they designed rework Evelynn? It's likely a more widely known thing than a baobhan sith.

Great read though, I enjoyed reading about some different folklore things I had no idea existed... in folklore... hopefully.

Rebonack12 votes

{quoted}

While you make a good put, what do you bet Riot was thinking succubus when they designed rework Evelynn? It's likely a more widely known thing than a baobhan sith.

Great read though, I enjoyed reading about some different folklore things I had no idea existed... in folklore... hopefully.

I made a poll topic here shortly after it was mentioned Eve was on the VGU list (though still pretty low on it) asking the players what they thought Eve should be (Vampire, Succubus, Dark Faerie, Battle Walrus) and I laid out the reason why I liked the Dark Faerie idea. I detailed what a baobhan sith was and what it did, including its ability to shift between sensual, alluring form and a true monstrous form. And we got a couple really encouraging Riot posts about how they loved this sort of feedback.

Take a look at Eve's gameplay trailer. Luring people in a beautiful glamored form and transforming into a true monstrous form seems to be core to Eve's theme and game-play now. I don't want to take credit for that direction by any means, but it sure looks like Riot took some of the feedback seriously.

1st Rick Sanchez7 votes

{quoted}

I made a poll topic here shortly after it was mentioned Eve was on the VGU list (though still pretty low on it) asking the players what they thought Eve should be (Vampire, Succubus, Dark Faerie, Battle Walrus)

Battle Walrus incoming then, get hype!

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Ymir coming to League of Legends? Time to get ready for the ultimate showdown between him and Gragas.

Furor Nexis5 votes

{quoted}

It is pronounced exactly like 'banshee'. Which means, literally, fairy woman. Or mound woman, I guess. Though they share the same name, the Irish banshee and the Scottish baobhan sith don't really have all that much in common. The former just started wailing when someone important died (or was about to die) while the latter was a monster that ate people. Consider the difference between a kitsune and a kumiho. They both have a common root (foxish Wild Woman) but their personalities are wildly different.

When Riot was first talking about doing a VGU for Eve, I was heavily encouraging them to take inspiration from the baobhan sith to create an malevolent, predator monster out of her. So as you might imagine I was absolutely stoked to see Eve's gameplay teaser. I mean, one of the central ideas I was pitching was to have her shift back and forth between a glamoured form to attract people and a true form to rip them a new one and they did it!

[sg-jinx]

I was wondering what the story was with the pronunciation till I started thinking in Gaelic format. However the pronounciations of the Irish Banshee and the Scottish Baobhan Sith are not as similar as you suggest OP. Since Irish & Scottish Gaelic have similar structures and rules it makes sense when you think about it. Although the etymology differs as Banshee in Irish is Bean Síde or in more modern terms Ban Sí, literally pronounced Ban-shee. however because the name is 'Baobhan sith', therefore extended in Scottish Gaelic it'd be more pronounced as Baa-van-shee.

Source: Being from Ireland I spent 11 years in the education system learning Irish. Having the Irish grammar rules nailed into your head is not the most fun experience lmao.

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Furor Nexis,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bXd0yPIa,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-09-24T13:07:08.154+0000)

I was wondering what the story was with the pronunciation till I started thinking in Gaelic format. However the pronounciations of the Irish Banshee and the Scottish Baobhan Sith are not as similar as you suggest OP. Since Irish & Scottish Gaelic have similar structures and rules it makes sense when you think about it. Although the etymology differs as Banshee in Irish is Bean Síde or in more modern terms Ban Sí, literally pronounced Ban-shee. however because the name is 'Baobhan sith', therefore extended in Scottish Gaelic it'd be more pronounced as Baa-van-shee.

Source: Being from Ireland I spent 11 years in the education system learning Irish. Having the Irish grammar rules nailed into your head is not the most fun experience lmao.

Yeah, you're right. Very similar, still. Like asking people from different parts of the United States to pronounce the word 'pecan'. Let me edit my post real quick since I have a dislike of disinformation.

ChaosThief1 votes

Can I see that thread, by any chance?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Can I see that thread, by any chance?

Ask and you shall receive.

ChaosThief1 votes

Appreciated, thank you!

PerchancetoGame1 votes

In some stories, the Baobhan Sith are depicted as a type of vampire, in that they drain the blood of their victims, yet with faerie traits, such as an aversion to iron. Overall agree with you though that this describes our new Eve perfectly.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

In some stories, the Baobhan Sith are depicted as a type of vampire, in that they drain the blood of their victims, yet with faerie traits, such as an aversion to iron. Overall agree with you though that this describes our new Eve perfectly.

Eat flesh, drain blood, or even drain 'life' from the victim. They're pretty variable from story to story in terms of the specifics of how they murder someone.

PerchancetoGame1 votes

I agree - it's all a type of feeding off the victim. The common factor is some kind of consuming.

LunSeiSleidee3 votes

If you really were a folklore fan, you would know that the sexist myth of the woman who seduces men to kill them is an ancient trope that has not much to do with succubi, but is more of a general theme when it comes to a female monster or spirit.

The sirens. The water sprites. The fox spirits. All folklores are filled with tales of hot babes who kill men because they are hot.

And, like with all folklore, this tells a lot about society and our nature.

Rebonack26 votes

{quoted}

If you really were a folklore fan, you would know that the sexist myth of the woman who seduces men to kill them is an ancient trope that has not much to do with succubi, but is more of a general theme when it comes to a female monster or spirit.

The sirens. The water sprites. The fox spirits. All folklores are filled with tales of hot babes who kill men because they are hot.

And, like with all folklore, this tells a lot about society and our nature.

And monsters that disguised themselves as hot men to entice women. Maybe the moral of the story was 'don't smash with random people you meet outside the village.'

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Which male monsters do that? I'm genuinely curious.

Incubi obviously Other then that I've no idea.

Barcid4 votes

If you want to know.

They're called "men". Just "men".

Not even trying to make a social statement or be funny here. There are a lot of stories about predatory, corrupt, or barbaric men to the point that I honestly don't believe many stories about alluring male monsters were necessary.

PerchancetoGame1 votes

I logged in just to upvote and agree with this. More than half the great "romances" from every world mythology started with the guy deciding he wants the girl and kidnaps her.

Spizzle90007 votes

Nah the OP got it right here. Plenty of male monsters do that shit too. Moral of the story: don't be promiscuous and expect to have no negative consequences to your actions.

LunSeiSleidee2 votes

{quoted}

Nah the OP got it right here. Plenty of male monsters do that shit too. Moral of the story: don't be promiscuous and expect to have no negative consequences to your actions.

Allow me to disagree.

I cannot even think of a male monster that is all about sexuality and seduction. Nor in folklore, nor in modern media.

Uniboros10 votes

{quoted}

Allow me to disagree.

I cannot even think of a male monster that is all about sexuality and seduction. Nor in folklore, nor in modern media.

Are Incubi not a Parallel to Succubi? :(

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

Allow me to disagree.

I cannot even think of a male monster that is all about sexuality and seduction. Nor in folklore, nor in modern media.

Off the top of my head, kelpies and nokk both assumed the form of attractive men to lure women to the water and drown/eat them. My knowledge isn't exhaustive by any means, either.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

Kelpies and Nokk's attracted anyone, regardless of sex or gender.

Nokk's were effectively a form of water fae, and the Kelpie was more specifc to scottish regions, and were likened to horse more then "Something that takes the form of a man to attract women".

They were shapeshifters and did not have specifc's when it came to their victims unless you're thinking of any specific tale, like anything from Barra.

Taking into account Eytomology and region sourcing as well, these 2 could even be interchangeable or the same thing.

GenoXx4 votes

Incubis......lol I am a fan of folklore. So I know these things.

LunSeiSleidee2 votes

First, they're called incubi, just so you know, dear fan of folklore. Second, they barely count. There's a reason everyone knows what a succubus is but only some nerds know what an incubus is.

GenoXx2 votes

I knew that. I just used the singular term just to help you remember. But they count regardless of how many people may know what it is.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

The singular therm is incubus.

It's Latin, which I happened to learn in high school.

You know what? Nevermind, really. Keep your ignorance.

GreenLore2 votes

If the incubus doesn't count because he isn't that well known,then we also shouldn't count the fox spirits. Because even though a lot of people know about fox spirits,it is not well known that they are seductresses.

The Lol-community just happens to have a champ based on a very specific version of the myth,hence why the tale of the gumiho is more well known among the lol community than usual.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

No, unfortunately, most of the Asian fox myths have the fox turn into a hot babe and seduce some guy.

GreenLore3 votes

But most people just know that there are magical foxes with 9 tails in asian myths,who sometimes can transform into humans.

PerchancetoGame2 votes

{quoted}

Allow me to disagree.

I cannot even think of a male monster that is all about sexuality and seduction. Nor in folklore, nor in modern media.

He's not wrong. Most ancient stories (not to mention modern ones) were sexist as hell. But sticking with the old world folklore, humans have always been afraid of lustful feelings or desires so they demonize them, and since many cultures are patriarchal, the resulting folk tales blame women for "tempting" men.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

{quoted}

He's not wrong. Most ancient stories (not to mention modern ones) were sexist as hell. But sticking with the old world folklore, humans have always been afraid of lustful feelings or desires so they demonize them, and since many cultures are patriarchal, the resulting folk tales blame women for "tempting" men.

Pretty much.

Tattersall6 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/235/468/042.png

tl;dr, sirens don't always lure you in with sex. They sing about what you want most. Odysseus heard them promising him knowledge about the future.

ChaosThief4 votes

This right here. Not only is it comedic, but it gets the point across.

It's not always "appeal to their pants", it's "appeal to their desires", which may seem similar but can be wildly different.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

It's not always "appeal to their pants", it's "appeal to their desires", which may seem similar but can be wildly different.

That's something I wish Riot would have learnt when they redesigned Evelynn.

KuroCaliber1 votes

Except Eve's not a singer.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

{quoted}

Except Eve's not a singer.

So I guess that, if she can't sing, there's no other way for her to appeal to people's desires than by showing her tits.

KuroCaliber2 votes

Well you see, so far we've seen her only kill men, with the obvious experience of vayne's mother. A one size fits most desire would be lust, and it would be pretty easy to abuse for a shape shifting demon.

GreenLore3 votes

We've seen her only kill men? So far the only persons that were killed by new Evelynn were Vaynes parents,so it is a 50/50-split...

KuroCaliber1 votes

Plus the guy in the splash. 66/33.

GreenLore1 votes

Still she only killed 3 people,thats not really any indicator for her preferred prey,especially since not all 3 of them were male(and with only 3 people you can't have an equal amount of male and female victims unless one of the victims is hermaphrodite,which would be really unlikely).

KuroCaliber1 votes

Yeah, well, it'd be a more even split if back in the day women traveled more than men. For instance, sirens and mermaids were probably thought up by pent up sailors who had been away from land for a long time. And sailors were predominantly male. And nymphs were sang of by bards to, you guessed it, other men. Now if you were a bard, and you wanted the king and his retinue to enjoy your story, would you make every tree and spring a naked man, or a naked woman? Furthermore, I have a sneaking suspicion that most of these seductive type monsters were covers for people's own infidelity. It was much easier to blame a monster specifically existing to seduce than it was too examine the flaws in one's own character. Men traveled more than women, so they had a greater variety of monsters they could encounter: in every spring, tree, in their sleep, on open ocean, etc. Meanwhile women would blame incubi if they slept with someone while their husband were away.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

Yeah, I know in the past men did everything and women stood in the house to cheat on their husbands.

KuroCaliber2 votes

That's not what I'm saying and you should know that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we had a greater variety of seductive female monsters because men made every excuse to make up for their own infidelity, or used it to cover for a rather stupid death. It probably sounded nicer if you say, he was pulled underneath the water by a naked naiad, rather than saying, he downed because the idiot didn't know how to swim. Women had less situations in which they could be unfaithful, hence the only well known woman seducing demons are incubi and the multiple gods who took different forms to get with women

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